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TITANIUM BEAST!!!

[+R] Order-Sol Critique Thread

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This thread is for players to post videos of their own gameplay in order to get feedback from other forum members. Please take off-topic discussions to the appropriate thread.

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Awww yi.

Comments pls.

Few things I have noticed so far:

Hard to land fafnir after a ground lv 2 BRP

My staple throw combo against Slayer doesn't work anymore(?) throw -> j.k -> j.hs -> j.d -> land -> j.hs -> j.d -> dj.hs -> j.d -> BRP

After the second 5s -> 5 hs -> lv 2 BRP (ground), they can tech out at strange times.

2D doesn't feel as potent as before. Not sure why.

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40 minutes is soo longgggg

ill try to take a look and analyze soon

edit: i watched the first section (hos vs sol) and stopped when it switched to slayer

figure thats a nice chunk to look at

notice: i am xbox player, so i have video watching experience and like..... a handful of casuals experience with +r stuff

things i noticed:

ground level 2 brp into fafnir - does this even work? i dont have the game (still, sadly, god damn xbox), but i only ever got BRP2 into fafnir on air hit BRP2 (like i launched them with fafnir, then BRP2, then i could get a fafnir after that)

you dont do combos into iad j.p (off ch j.h for example) - just a note

you dont charge keep - just a note

you dont do much in the way of cc pressure - just a note

you gun blaze out of pressure/mixup/jump ins/anything A FUCKING LOT. like too much imo.

your oki was like 90% gunblaze, 9% 6k, and 1% something else. i would think about that. just because it is hitting doesnt mean you shouldnt re-evaluate it

when you got him to block a gunblaze level 2, you never went for mixup. just more pressure, but it always fizzled out fast. gunblaze level 2 is a great chance to 2h/2d cc/5d/something thats not a mid hit

you dont AA with 6p at all. riot stomp in particular made that VERY obvious

as for particular advice, i would just read my notes, and see what you dont like and work to fix it. (unless another hos player doesnt see what im saying anyway)

:D?

Edited by iora

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Watched the same section as iora, first I'm going to comment on a couple of things you did right:

  • 6H (blocked) into fafnir. This was great because you knew he was going to get testy and try to run in. This is the perfect time to use fafnir as the anti-poke. Other times include when you've got someone who is using their far slash or heavy slash as a poke or to beat lows.
  • j.H all day. This move is so active that it's hard to AA outside of certain 6P's even in a situation where you're just coming down on them from air teching or what have you.
  • 2S in neutral. This is good, you've remembered that this is your safest and fastest poke.



    Here's a couple of things that are not good that iora missed:
    • 2D whenever there's a gap in their pressure. 2D is good in neutral in certain match-ups and only at certain ranges against certain moves. You can incorporate it into CC pressure as it has a lot of blockstun and has good reach. But whenever you're escaping pressure, this is not the move to use as it's terrible on whiff. If anything you only want to ever throw it out at ranges where you know it's going to at least touch their hitbox.
    • Lack of f.S. This move is your whiff-punisher. Yeah, you don't get a lot off of it, and it basically returns you to neutral unless you have the charge meter to convert it into knockdown or a corner BHB combo, but you have to use this move to stuff approaches and to whiff-punish once you've pushed your opponent out.
    • Lack of 2K. This move is under-appreciated imo. It is a fast low that stuffs so much stuff from coming out. The best place to use this is just a little closer than 2S range, and I'd say it's even better than 2S in many cases just because it's faster (on both start-up and recovery) not to mention it's one of your 3 lows. Just watch out for sweeps, though you should be catching them on start-up, if you don't want to risk that trade, just block instead.
    • Just a small combo note, I wouldn't recommend doing action charge after level 1 BRP ever, you are way too vulnerable and it leaves them with time to escape you. In fact, just ending with j.D is more favorable because they can't forward air tech (because of the counter-acting momentum from j.D float).

    Comments on both yours and iora's observations:

      [*]L2 BRP > fafnir does not work if L2 BRP ground hits. Even if you do manage to connect air hit BRP > fafnir, you don't get anything after it except for maybe the 2S 5H IAD route if you're in the corner, not worth the meter, better spent on raw fafnir or if you manage to hit 6P stagger.

      [*]He was trying to do super jump IAD j.P after 5H which I'm not sure if that is a working combo route. I have addressed what I believe is an optimal and favorable route after CH j.H in the combo thread:

      A slight addendum to the Lvl 1 major hitconfirms: ground hit CH j.H or CH 2D have a shared easy hitconfirm that works on most of the cast.

      Midscreen:

      CH j.H or CH 2D xx 214D > dash 5K c.S > j.S j.D (xx 236K)

      Corner:

      CH j.H or CH 2D xx 214D > dash 5K c.S > j.S j.D dj.H j.D > 1. j.H j.D dj.H j.D (xx 236K) or 2. c.S sj.S j.H j.D (xx 236K/623H)

      Ender for the corner one basically depends on character weight and how well you time the dj.H j.D during the first dustloop (basically, it comes down to execution). Stuff in the parenthesis is optional if you want damage.

      [*]Charge keep isn't all that important. The only times where I think it's honestly useful are for pressure with BHB of if you only want to do lvl 1 SV (which, even then, why would one forego the better hitstun and safe AC you get after lvl 2 SV).

      [*]I agree, CC pressure is the core of HOS's rushdown. Even something like [2S xx 214D] x N is better than nothing. Just practice what moves at what distances you can get to connect (not whiff) after CCing one string of normals.

      [*]Again I agree with not being too gunblaze happy; HOWEVER, if you see the other player is airdashing at you or is in a spot where they are in the air and have forward momentum, gunblaze is one of your best options if not the only option. If you see holes or spots in your opponent's movement/pressure where you can catch them with a gunblaze, go for it. Otherwise, you must acknowledge how vastly unsafe just deciding to do that move is.

      [*]Suggestions for meaties: Gunblaze is good just be sure to rush in and do something else afterward like 2K or 2S into CC pressure or 5H/f.S if you're feeling a jump-out, double gunblaze is great ended up catching him most of the time. 2H meaty is good, just go for it more if you have meter to convert. 2D meaty is also good and I didn't see you do it in the Sol set perhaps for obvious reasons (it doesn't go under his DP, but it goes under Ky's) but it's something to consider. 6K meaty is good versus scrubs who wake up throw all the time, good on you for using it. You can also read my super-scrubby dash neutral jump fuzzy/cross-up/whatever set up here. And finally, if you're feeling a DP, sometimes meaty 6P will clash, otherwise if you think they won't do a reversal, 6P is great for tick throws.

      I am terrible at this game but hopefully my big talk helped~

Edited by AMB Bakery

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I have a few sets with Kyle W from this past tournament. A FT5, WFs and GFs set.

http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/b/461572566 - Brandino (HOS) vs. Kyle W (May) Winner Finals 4:57

http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/b/461572566 - Brandino (HOS) vs. Kyle W (May) Grand Finals 5:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7vVXu84tig - Brandino (HOS) vs. Kyle W (May) FT5

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Watched the FT5, will watch the others and try to do some detailed breakdown later. I'll try not to do too much matchup analysis since all of my experience is on regular AC (albeit against one of the strongest American May players). Some quick points:

1.) You don't seem to have good Burst habits. Lots of very dangerous Bursts.

2.) Seem to go on autopilot sometimes, don't do this! Especially against May.

3.) The one time I noticed you go on offense, felt very uncontrolled. HOS is a character who is more reliant on reading the opponent and punishing their attempts to get around your pressure, rather than just trying to bust through their defense. You are better off starting with controlled pressure and then adjusting from there, rather than trying to do blank mixups or broken pressure with light pokes.

More later.

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I don't know much at all about May, but I do know I will not use 5HS much vs her at all. Everytime you pushed that button in finals, she stuffed you for like 30% off of some whack combo that usually caused corner kd. That is wayyyyy too much in her favor for an attempted AA. I'd level 2 gunblaze her butt all day. I also don't like your wall throw combo for May. If that guy N. teched, he could grab you all day.

Aside from that you have some nice movement (maybe a little too much back movement for me) and I smiled that one time you used Fafnir and it counter hit her and she died.

I'm jelly as fk Blake commented on your video tho.

That may player didn't respect you at all. I don't know how to get a May to respect you but I would dp a lot more till his game changed up; maybe ask Blake. That is too much disrespect for me. He was so comfortable that he just ran up and grabbed you like 30 times.

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5HS is butt vs May. Best anti airs versus her are j.K and SV. Maybe level 2 GB as well. You get a lot of airthrows on her if the player has bad positioning. I'll try to get to all the vids later on.

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http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/c/2960045 - Brandino (HOS) vs. Alphakami (Ky) FT5

Man shiiiii... It's like watchin I'm a whole new player; you really REALLY don't respect that Ky player LOL. Jumpin in on Ky and gunblazes in the corner usually get me blown up. You were agro as a mug, kept great meter and charge economy, and did very little random things. I can't really comment on much aside from the fact that I really don't like you going for HJI combos all the time and you don't use fafnir as much as I do. Anything else will probably be logic nit-picking like 4r5 is famous for.

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Man shiiiii... It's like watchin I'm a whole new player; you really REALLY don't respect that Ky player LOL. Jumpin in on Ky and gunblazes in the corner usually get me blown up. You were agro as a mug, kept great meter and charge economy, and did very little random things. I can't really comment on much aside from the fact that I really don't like you going for HJI combos all the time and you don't use fafnir as much as I do. Anything else will probably be logic nit-picking like 4r5 is famous for.

That's how I normally play in MUs I feel really comfortable in and Ky's one of them. Reason why I played so scared and hesitant against Kyle was because I never fought a May online or offline and I was having a really hard time conditioning him or forcing him to respect me. Also it could just be me, but I also like using Fafnir as a counter poke as opposed to a neutral poke so maybe that's why I appear to use Fafnir as much as you or other HOS players.

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http://www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy/c/2960234 - Brandino (HOS) vs. Dullyana (Justice)

Brandango pls. y high jump combo su mach? You lose a lot of damage potential (tech traps, knock downs, corner pressure, extended combos, black beats, ect...), and they can tech out in your face to grab or punish you.

Also, not as a critique, but why do you 6p so much in pressure? Even on CH I find it very hard to link anything else but a fafnir and even that is hard to confirm for me.

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6P is really good. It's a stagger from a gatling, clashes with some DP's at certain distances, and on block it gives you hella mix-up options. On hit, simplest confirm would just be 2K 2D.

Regarding Justice, I would just throw out lows a lot. Beats throw and 236P mash. If he knows his stuff, this should condition him to maybe 623K (low invuln) when getting pressured, at which point you can resume aerial shenanigans. Stuff like j.P whiff j.H is dangerous imo just cos of how active Justice atemi is. Yeah, you bursted every time he combo'd you after it, but if he knew that he could beat your air options with it he probably would have done it a lot more instead of just randomly mashing it like he did.

Otherwise good matches. Need to probably x-copy some of your movement vs. Ky since that's a match-up I have trouble with.

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Brandango pls. y high jump combo su mach? You lose a lot of damage potential (tech traps, knock downs, corner pressure, extended combos, black beats, ect...), and they can tech out in your face to grab or punish you.

Also, not as a critique, but why do you 6p so much in pressure? Even on CH I find it very hard to link anything else but a fafnir and even that is hard to confirm for me.

Eeeeh not really. The damage is pretty close to DL, more stable, if you FRC your BRP AC ender they can't punish you at all, and if you have a decent amount of lvl.2 gauge you can get a free AC and continue pressure (Lvl.2 BRP gives you hard KD at HJC heights).

Reason why I like 6P as a poke is because it's good for anti-mash and keeps them guessing. If you have 25 meter you can link a fafnir afterwards for HUGE damage midscreen or corner. If they want to try and throw you afterwards you can stop that with a 6K. I know in AC+ you didn't get anything for it midscreen because of the wall slam, but with it staggering in +R now I always wondered why don't more HOS players actually use it. It's a good poke IMO.

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Eeeeh not really. The damage is pretty close to DL, more stable, if you FRC your BRP AC ender they can't punish you at all, and if you have a decent amount of lvl.2 gauge you can get a free AC and continue pressure (Lvl.2 BRP gives you hard KD at HJC heights).

Yah see, I personally don't like this logic:

"If you spend tension/FRC you can make it safe". Yah, that's for nearly everything.

"If you have charge you get ..." That is also true in every case.

What I meant was that you get more out of the combo in potential; I am not comparing actual damage in the initial combo. The reason I like lower-to-the-ground combos is that you get a LOT more control and freedom with out depending on tension and charge in the form of tech traps, knock downs, corner pressure, extended combos, black beats, ect... that you completely forgo if you are falling from a HJ combo.

That being said, I am a low-charge OR player. Med and high charge players probably don't care about this, so this is also preference. I probably shouldn't be talking about logic lol. I am no where near as good as you.

Otherwise good matches. Need to probably x-copy some of your movement vs. Ky since that's a match-up I have trouble with.

Ehh... I wouldn't. No disrespect intended but that Ky was scared as fk. Experienced Ky players would stuff the fk outa Brandindu's combos. Between Ky's j.k being faster than c, his DP, and his 6p being the ELBOW OF JUSTICE, Ky's normals also have great anti-air components for OR because his jump is so low. It's a really rough match up if the skill levels are similar. If you play a Ky player with a strong background in Street Fighter / CVS2, then you will be in so many frame traps and fireball traps that you will end up blocking even on advance.

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i have very high success vs ky's 6p. j.h and j.p beat it out in a lot of situations you think it wouldnt. and since you can low profile ky's dp... it loses a lot of its threat. i end up approaching on the ground a lot more often than some iad nonsense. or just double jump j.h at good angles if he tends to aa poorly. stand f.s in particular are helpful to me, as is counterpoking with fafnir if he throws out a dumb normal. thats just my personal experience though.

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Okay so I just finished watching Sesshyru's matches, I'll go with some general commentary since the length of the video leaves a lot in terms of details to cover.

In general:

-I feel like you have a good sense of the game in terms of what works and what doesn't, but your decision making doesn't really show that, for some reason. Generally poor decisions in certain situations.

-I feel like you're not confident enough. HOS requires you to make quick decisions as a player in certain situations. You seem to hesitate a lot.

-Try to be more aware of what the proper combo is for the situation. You missed some damage opportunities and also went for some less reliable or sub optimal combos. For example, trying to Dloop carry off of midscreen lvl1 GB on normal hit all the time, generally dash 5S© into HJ combos is much more reliable.

-Being a low-charge HOS player in this version of the game is a bad decision, IMO. Most of the buffs he got in +R have to do with the charge bar and level 2 moves. You miss out on a lot by choosing to play with low charge.

More detailed stuff:

-ACing immediately off of a connected SV is a bad decision unless you are 100% committed to using the FRC to cover yourself, which is generally a waste of meter. In most situations you can wait a little bit, which creates some ambiguity as to whether or not you will AC, and also helps you gauge the distance between yourself and your opponent to see if it's safe. In situations where it's not, you can opt not to AC at all, and if your opponent is overeager to go back on the offensive, you can try to tech catch them instead.

-When you did have charge, there was practically zero use of lvl2 BHB. I saw you use it one time, period, and that was in a failed midscreen combo. You would use lvl2 BRP a lot, which should be used more sparingly since it only gives a very minor frame advantage while leaving you point blank. If you try to attack again, that's a free throw for your opponent. Use BHB instead, it gives absurd plus frames and leads to free combos on hit. Use BRP after conditioning your opponent to sit still and block low.

-Waaaaay too much Fafnir usage. You hit it in some really good situations, but often you would just throw it out there when you were nervous in a critical point.

If you have any other questions, let me know. There's a lot to talk about in that video, I just tried to hit on the stuff that stuck out to me.

AMB Bakery:

sj. IAD P after 5H is actually a core combo route for HOS, especially when you hit low launches or slides at further distances. The increased untech time for 5H makes it easier to do in this game too, to the point where you can almost hit confirm it off of random tech catches. It's more damaging than going for dash into 5K-5S, and more reliable at longer distances. Basic example would be Fafnir or CH j.HS into dash 2S-5H -> sj. IAD P-S(or HS) -> lvl1 SV. Off of Fafnir this does tremendous damage for what it is, and is very reliable.

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Oh I just didn't know if sj IAD j.P connected or not. I know that it does off regular jump, I just wasn't sure if super jump added more frames before you could airdash or took longer to start up or whatever. I just noticed that every time he tried to go for a combo off 5H and did a super jump into IAD, it didn't connect, so I attributed it to non-working combo routes rather than player execution. Though, then again, there are probably certain heights where even IAD sj.P won't connect if you juggled too high already.

I do agree, though, off regular hit Fafnir (especially) or CH j.H air hit or even ground hit at certain distances and heights, 2S 5H into whatever depending on resources is definitely the way to go, just because of how reliable it is. I just made my contention with 5K 5S into dustloop (and even possibly extended dustloop) because I believe it provides the most flexibility in terms of both damage output and combo-end situation (j.D float prevents forward tech from going forward lol).

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Dang. Some good advice; good and painful. I'll work on it. Thanks TB.

People in MD tend to poke out of things so I block a lot, and if I get stuffed for using a move I tend to not use it or just stop wanting to be offensive. That's why I don't use 6P at all. I got kicked the last 3 times I tried to 6P a riot stomp. I used it early, middle, and late and still got kicked so I said "never again". lol I just try to j.p it.

Edited by Sesshyru

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Not really that good either With OS, but i can give few tips regarding A.B.A matchup.

1. IAD v ABA is bad generally since she has very strong aa option, substitute IAD with micro dash and double jump.

2. Don't OTG A.B.A in moroha

3. Stay in Mid Range Watch her meter, and fafnir on reaction whenever u catch her spiting blood after Moroha expire

4. haven't actually Play +R but, her 2h supposedly +f on Block... so trying to mash out her 2h pressure is Bad

5. Slashback her 2nd rekka, since unlike Chip, she can't delay the 2nd hit

6. Block low on her Rekka, and gunblaze her UB

7. Knockdown her 3 times on Moroha and hit confirm Fafnir CH/whatever heavy punish afterward

That's all for now, and please correct me if there's something wrong with my post

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Though I am no Order-Sol player, I play the other side of the matchup you are showing us, here are some remarks, if you allow me.

Not +R specific but in general :

- Be fast enough to visually confirm and execute dash break (dash > FD) or dash > 2D under JO's coins. Learn the correct spacing and timing for them, when you can sneak a 2D or when you can"t and have to FD.

You can break a long run into dash FD then dash FD again and react accordingly. Think of it as preemptive FD you just tap before resuming your run should nothing happenened. Should a hit come, you would be able to block or counteract depending on this move and your options at the moment.

- I did not see any throw attempts when you were the one pressuring, whether midscreen or in the corner. It is even more dreadful in the corner as OS can confirm a successful throw into his loop (might have changed in +R).

With no fear of being thrown, "just" blocking is easy for the opponent. I think you should add some more throws in your tools to give you more options and possibly had to the pressure your opponent will have and make him respect you.

Dash (break or not) > throw, tick throw are mandatory IMO (at least when first playing an opponent, then adapt according to how it went, how he reacts) but you can also try some FRC feints into throw etc.

- Dash > 2D is a good way in as its low profile can beat many things JO would try. Still, there is some distance and timing management so it is not spammable, you have to know how and when to. Can be CC into whatever even confirmed into combo (might need a counterhit though), at least that was the case in AC, don't know about +R.

- Maybe not relevant but IIRC sometimes OS players use 6K (throw-invulnerable) on the opponent's wakeup to fish for a counter hit, should the opponent try a reversal throw or any other mashed buttons, except moves that beat your 6K such as a Volcanic Viper (not too sure but I think VV would win). When the JO player has strictly less than 50% Tension, he has no reversal-worthy special moves.

Well, maybe the Divine Blade Transport if the gap is wide enough, using its invincibility during its 5-17f (can be hit during startup). Or, once again if you leave (intentionally or not) a big enough gap, he can try 2P/2H. 2P needs you to be close enough so the spacing should be a tell and 2H is a really risky move for JO, yet important one. Otherwise, when in a tight pressure he will have to block, backdash or FD jump.

- At the end, you got hit several times in a more or less same situation, you in the corner, him 6P-ing you. Be careful not to get stuffed by the same move several times consecutively. When something does not work, do not try it again immediately or do not try attacking hoping for something. Sometimes, blocking in order to catch your breath and try to see how your opponent acts is better than hoping for the best and "mash" buttons. I know, easier said than done and in the heat of the match, it is no easy task. Sorry if it sounds condescending, that is not my intent and I mean no harm. Besides that also applies for me anyway.

- As an OS player, you should be able to bait JO's 2H and punish it with its huge recovery. Usually, OS's small jumps make it easy to get a nice (CH) j.H. Nonetheless your opponent is human and can adapt too so after a while it can be a guessing game.

This is a tough matchup for OS as JO's 5K, 6P, 5H, Mist Finer P among other things can easily lock and/zone you but OS does have the tools to win. There are holes in JO's neutral game and when he is on the defensive, you will be able to unleash most of OS fearsome pressure game. Well, you have to because keeping the momentum when it is in your favor is very important, if not crucial, especially since you are at a disavantage at long and midrange. When pressured and when you are right your opponent, always sticking to him, that is then that he might make more and more mistakes, might freeze and think too much thus take more time to act/react. And that is precisely when OS truly shines, IMO. Well, in fact many characters too but Order-Sol's options seem to imply this is his main field.

Edited by Mitsurugi

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Mitsu: while it is good theory, none of it really applies here. The thing that went wrong was that 4r5 was guarding air and Sesshryu tried to occupy air. Sesshryu: just take a look for yourself, when you are in the corner, you decide you have to jump out. So forcibly even that it cost you a round as 4r5 just kept attacking you in the air. Next time, just try running out or using GB.

Secondly, a bit more minor but still important: when waking up, running at your opponent to attack him isn't really going to work. 4r5 has been baiting you like this and you fell for it quite badly.

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