Dustloop Matchup Chart Project

[TheRealBobMan]

I'm able to score counter hits against Ky's jab. Hold back, start recording, do 5P, keep holding back for a bit then stop recording. If you Sakura late he'll block, if you do it during his recovery it hits, if you're really tight you score a Counter Hit. Ky's 5P has 4 active frames, and there's 1 frame of leniency on lvl 1 moves (11 frames block pause, 10 frame startup on Sakura), so assuming you block the first active frame the window to do the input and score a counter hit is 4 frames. You're already holding back, so you only need two frames to do the 12 part of the 412 input. I'm also getting it with Chipp's c.S. 1 active frame, lvl 3 move. 13 frames of block-pause means the window is 3 frames, and you need two of them to do the input. This is extremely tight, but still doable on prediction, and you'll know you did a guaranteed Sakura if you scored the counter-hit.

While Zakuro's hitbox makes it hard to catch low jump-ins, it still works (and so does Sakura).

"If you do it right, the first and second hits of the 3HS will hit in very rapid succession instead of the normal slight pause in between both"

I want to confirm that this does not happen. The time between the first and second hits is the same if the first hit is blocked (or hits), because that is only the block pause. The second hit goes active immediately following the end of the first active window (noted as 8,1 in the frame data).

So... if you time the 2nd hit's single active frame meaty on her wakeup, you could probably get away with using 3H on oki, but she can still get a guaranteed Sakura on you. If you let the first hit connect, you're giving her like 5 frames of leniency + the active time remaining between the first and second hit to counter-hit you with Sakura. Even if you hold up after starting 3H so that you'll jump out if you time it wrong and let the first hit connect, you still give her a 5 frame window to hit you (probably more because of jump start up). More important than that is the telegraph on the move starting, which is 23 frames (or close to 30 if you meaty it). That gives her enough time to prepare to do the counter on reaction, which reduces the risk of messing up. This is probably one of the closest things to a guaranteed scenario Baiken can get when you really think about it.

Because of the time it takes to do the counter input, you can only guarantee damage against lvl 3 or higher attacks. This is doable, and against lvl 5 moves the window is large enough that I would expect a good Baiken to be able to do it relatively consistently against moves that are "slow enough" to start. If the attacker doesn't cancel into something else (RC/FRC, reversal, jump) with frame perfection, the window is larger for Baiken to score a counter-hit. Not as good as guaranteed damage, but still pretty good for her. I mean, the guy on offense has to play around this to avoid letting Baiken hit him for free.

Now, if she blocks a low attack, it needs to be lvl 4 or 5 to guarantee damage, as she has to spend the extra frame on the 4 input in the 412 command. This is extremely risky because you need to switch to high block within 1-2 frames of correctly blocking low. It's like intentionally making yourself block an Eddie unblockable in order to get guaranteed damage as a reward. You can err on the side of doing it late and still have the counter be effective, but they can bait it as usual in that case. I bet this would look damn sexy in a match, but goddamn you'd have to be nuts to try it. It's also equally as risky to do a frame perfect Sakura against an overhead since starting the input even a frame early means you get hit, though your window is 1-frame wider and the input is easier to do.

So back on topic... your friends should probably be punishing you for doing that 3H, but if they don't, don't stop using it. *Shrug*

[Digital Watches]

I'll note that guard counters are still special moves, so you can option-select for the failure case by using negative edge (Input your guard counter, negative edge the button, if the attack doesn't happen when you expected, continue to hold back, no move comes out).

[ehuangsan]

I guess there is no bacon in norcal.

[Hellmonkey]

DW is correct, you can option select all guard cancel options, and specifically instant guard cancel options (you buffer the 412 motion) using negative edge or immediately cancelling the button into FD (which then gives you yet another attempt if you selectively negative edge after FDing). The technique is discussed in the baiken guide. I'll test out Ky vs Baiken oki when I get some free time for some more insight.

Waking up GC to escape pressure: While this method is very hard, this will get Baiken out of almost any okizeme. Right before you wake up, input 4121 as if you are about to block a move. On your wakeup, press P(and then one frame later)S, press 4 and release P, press 7. In the event you block a low hit first, you will get the fastest youshijin, if there is no block, you will cancel your P to FD the next frame, then you will attempt to do yet another fastest youshijin while blocking high, and if you still haven't blocked yet, you will jump. There are only three things which can punish this. If someone does a delayed attack and hits you during your jump startup or during the 1 frame you're doing 2P, you will get caught. You should FD to make your jump 1 frame (by pressing P again immediately after releasing it), but it is still possible to get punished. Also, if someone does a jump punishing move, you will get hit (such as potemkin heat, anji's jumping throw, airthrowing, etc.) In general though, this is extremely safe and good. Also, if someone quickly links to a move which will beat youshijin, you will get hit. Otherwise, you get a fastest youshijin punish on almost any meaty attack, or a jump to escape throwing or any other slower moves. You don't need to use S to FD, you can use any other button, if you use S and accidently let go of it at a time you can GC you will get a sakura counter instead of youshijin, which isn't too bad either.

So you can apply this with Sakura now, as she no longer has youshijin counter.

[Hellmonkey]

Played with it a bit and baiken can 100% counter any 3h with sakura. She can also CH even a 2k by itself. Sakura OP. The muscle memory is totally different than before since you need to S-> K or S -> P (S->H gives you slashback, so no option selecting along with ouren sadly). Also mawarikomi and zakuro are really bad to throw out randomly as zakuro whiffs against so much and mawarikomi is hilariously bad now, so you want to make sure only to let go of FD with S.

[TheRealBobMan]

Ky's 2K? That's a lvl 1 move with 4 active frames, so you're hitting his active frames when you get the CH. While that's still really good, it's something that can be baited since hitpause would be over in that case. It would be really dumb, but stuff like 2K > Vapor Thrust, 2K > RTL, and possibly even 2K > 6P (not sure if Sakura hits below Ky's waist) could go through it. Makes sense that they dropped the invincibility on the move so that people at least have sort of ghetto baits for it.

The chain counter used to be frame 12, so that could have guaranteed damage on lvl 5 moves that were close enough to Baiken. 10 frame Sakura can do it to lvl 3 moves, making some previously safe blockstrings using jump cancels unsafe, and do it to more moves than before because that hitbox is bigger and will work vs disjointed attacks like Ky's 3H. Unless a move has tons of disjointed range, is a projectile, is lvl 1 or 2, or is a high/low/throw, it's going to be hard to find a place for it in the Baiken matchup. Even some overheads are going to suck because of the telegraph/startup on them (Bandit Bringer, most dusts).

Are there any restrictions on Baiken's counters that make it so the input only counts while she's in block stun? Now that I'm thinking about it you should be able to buffer the 4 part of 412 when blocking lows in order to reduce the time it takes to do the input, so you can still guarantee Sakura vs lvl 3 lows. Maybe it's worse than I thought though... can you buffer 412, then switch back to 1/4 for the block and tap/release S on the same frame and have Sakura come out? That would mean guaranteed damage against all attacks in any situation where the Baiken player has enough time to safely do that. Buffer it out while you're waiting for the next hit to connect, then Sakura on contact. I'm going to test this in a little bit.

And even if there's a restriction on the input to prevent you from buffering it while not in block-stun, I think you could still guarantee counters against any attack in a block-string starting with the second hit. Ugh.

[Digital Watches]

Uh, hit pause on a lv 1 move is typically 11F. There are exceptions like Jam's 5K, but they're definitely nonstandard. You can buffer the input as far as I know, and using negative edge prevents false-presses of normals if you're not put in blockstun, so in theory with very good timing you can reliably hit any lv1+ move that's blockable low. Obviously whether that's match-viable is questionable, given that it's still essentially 1F timing.

[TheRealBobMan]

Yeah, if there's no restriction preventing you from buffering the input before you're put into block stun, you can guarantee Sakura hits them during hit-pause on any move that doesn't have reduced hit-pause (like I-No's f.S). I was considering the minimum amount of time it would take to do the input after being put into block stun when I made my earlier post. Being able to buffer the input ahead of time and then go back to blocking gets rid of that problem.

[Hellmonkey]

Uh, hit pause on a lv 1 move is typically 11F. There are exceptions like Jam's 5K, but they're definitely nonstandard. You can buffer the input as far as I know, and using negative edge prevents false-presses of normals if you're not put in blockstun, so in theory with very good timing you can reliably hit any lv1+ move that's blockable low. Obviously whether that's match-viable is questionable, given that it's still essentially 1F timing.

When it comes to meaty attacks, hitting that few frame window is actually not that hard with practice. It's easier than even timing reversal backdash in most cases if you have the 4121(+whatever you might want to do afterward if you don't counter) and option select button muscle memory.

The hardest characters to deal with on oki with Baiken are Jam (5k OP), and characters with strong first-time mixup like Millia's everything or I-no dashing gimmicks. Other hard specific cases are Zappa with dog to cover, Potemkin with heat and long potbuster range, Venom if he covers with balls, Dizzy with summons, or Johnny with coins and good spacing.

[Lynxfort]

Any new updates?? and why isn't there a Japanese match-up chart or (newer) tier list ??

[Lynxfort]

http://www.norematch.com/2012/11/05/ggxx-acr-matchup-diagram/

Recently, the people over at the Japanese GGXX BBS have put together a matchup diagram for Accent Core Plus R! Each of the character threads were asked to make a matchup list for their respective characters, and the data was compiled into one chart. There was also some kind of adjustment done to the numbers if there were disagreements on certain matchups(the Johnny and Slayer threads disagreed on what the exact MU number was, for example). This is why the data is perfectly symmetrical in the chart.

Anywho, this is the latest post containing a full chart on the thread. I went ahead and translated it here since the board likes to use those single kanji abbreviations for characters. I like how Anji is represented with the kanji for nude lol. Advantageous matchups are colored in blue, and disadvantageous matchups are red.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AjtI6IrBGlOadGlTWWdJMWE1T2ZmT2trSUhzSkZ5SlE&output=html

[D.R.F.]

This tierlist tho

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