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toanenadiz

[CP] Nu vs Kokonoe

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The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Medium Range: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs Her Tools

Offense

Your Offense:

Her Offense:

Defense

Your Defense:

Her Defense:

Frame Data: Advantageous, Disadvantageous, and Punishable Moves

Neutral/Advantageous Moves:

Disadvantageous Moves:

Punishable Moves:

Gimmicks and Resets

Match Summary

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This match up is tough. The biggest problem against Kokonoe is the lack of being able to lock her down with pressure. Her teleport is active frame 1 and moves her to an ideal spot outside of our range. And because it's a 22 move, crossing her up doesn't stop it. I've actually had many situations where she does it after a [Luna]236D oki and successfully escape.

Her antiair and overhead are chargeable (and the antiair keeps the head attribute invulernability during the entire duration). Her 5B is extremely fast and airborne, her 5C has no hitbox at startup.

Among other things, her drive can screw with Nu's drive and can counterhit her full screen into a 3~4k combo.

And then there's black hole...

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Hmm, well, the major problem with this match-up is that Kokonoe owns Nu in neutral. Which makes it pretty difficult to zone Kokonoe, actually I don't think it's even possible to zone her. Try and see. She will just do graviton, activate, and you'll lose your advantage. So you can't do 214D~C when she's in gravity. You can try to bait the graviton, activate set-up, since the cooldown is like 100F or something, but you won't be getting a 214D~C to keep her at bay. And considering how fast Koko's dash speed is (she's slightly slower than Nu's dash speed) she can easily get in if you don't zone her properly.

So, I don't have any tips for how to deal with Kokonoe in the corner doing superball. I don't know if tossing a drive after the super goes off stops Kokonoe from smashing your face. If it doesn't, the best thing I can think of for avoiding losing the moment she does superball is to do Legacy Edge to keep her in blockstun/punish her. Might work. I'll need to test this. But yeah, superball is literally a game-changing move. Kokonoe can whiff it entirely, yet you can't punish her properly at all because then she will set a graviton and you will eat a ton of blockstun, and the fireball hides what she's about to do. Suffice it to say, superball will cause many salty nightmares.

Let's not forget the infamous black hole. It's not that big of a deal. Okay maybe it is. Since Nu is one of the many characters screwed if Kokonoe ever goes for this set-up, if you don't have a burst you're dead. I've played against a few Kokonoes who know the black hole > 22B > 3C set-up, which nets around 5k in less than the time it took me to blink. So how do you avoid this game-changing ability? Well, the best defense is to never get in the corner versus Kokonoe. Therein lies the challenge.

Kokonoe reminds me a bit of Chie from Persona 4 Arena. If she hits you once you're stuck in an endless loop of oki until you successfully block her mix-up. For Kokonoe, because of how much meter she gains from her combos, if you get hit once while in the corner, you're not getting out (unless you're one of the select few who can avoid black hole super).

Despite all this, Nu can give Kokonoe a rough time to get in. Namely because Nu is one of the few characters that can actually challenge graviton into fireball set-ups. If Nu hits or causes Kokonoe to block, then the fireball is gone. A lot of the times I was able to get a free combo because of this. You have to be extra mindful though. Because if you mess up, she will teleport on you, and make you eat some damaging combo that carries pretty far into the corner.

All in all, this match-up is pretty rough. Though admittedly I find it more entertaining than most of Nu's match-ups. Science vs yandere. The ultimate battle between twisted fashion sense and interdimensional swords. Who will come out on top? Thong or crouch plate?

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I recall reading that she has the fastest dash in the game. Was this incorrect?

Well, she's not faster than Nu's dash. And there are only a handful of characters who have a max dash speed faster than Nu.

I tested this by setting a dummy to dash for about ten seconds and then dashed against that dummy. Not sure if this is an accurate way to test max dash speed (I assume it is because Nu and Mu have the exact same max dash speed). But Nu edged Kokonoe out slightly.

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So, I don't have any tips for how to deal with Kokonoe in the corner doing superball. I don't know if tossing a drive after the super goes off stops Kokonoe from smashing your face. If it doesn't, the best thing I can think of for avoiding losing the moment she does superball is to do Legacy Edge to keep her in blockstun/punish her. Might work. I'll need to test this. But yeah, superball is literally a game-changing move. Kokonoe can whiff it entirely, yet you can't punish her properly at all because then she will set a graviton and you will eat a ton of blockstun, and the fireball hides what she's about to do. Suffice it to say, superball will cause many salty nightmares.

You have to react to which version it is to know what to do. You can tell which version she did by seeing how far forward she goes before she launches the fireball. A version comes down directly in front of her. B version comes down about 1.5x Nu backdash distance from Kokonoe. C version comes down almost full screen away from her. The fireball super itself is slightly less than 1 Nu backdash in size. This means if you are 1 backdash length away from her and she does the A super, you can do a D combo and the fireball will completely miss you. You can use this to bait the super against lesser Kokonoe. For example, knockdown the Kokonoe in the corner and stand over her and wait for her to neutral tech. Most Kokonoe with either try to super or teleport out in this situation. If she supers, backdash during the superflash. Both the A version and C version fireballs will whiff (the A version will come down in front of you but won't mess up your combo) so you can do 5DD > 236D > 2AA > stuff to punish her. If she does the B version, you want to either dash forward and punish with 2B or stay where you are and do 5DD > 44. Do the first if she doesn't have a burst. Do the second if she does. Super doesn't disappear if she is hit and if she bursts, she is free to set up a gravitation and control the super's movements. Most Kokonoe stick with A version or C version so you probably won't have to worry about B version until lots of fireball supers get punished. You can also just stand about one backdash distance away from Kokonoe on wake-up and apply pressure that way to avoid fireball super.

Legacy Edge does work though to lock her down when she does fireball super though.

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Thanks for the info Toan, I will need to test this out. Either way, it sounds like it will be kind of iffy punishing her for doing superball. Plus, if 5DD > 44 doesn't kill, she still gets away for free in that scenario. But the other option would be her bursting and getting free oki with the superball if she starts doing B version.

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How I see it, ya need to try force the opponent to keep off of you, because, well, you aren't beating her mid screen or closer, ya just aren't. As all non supers vanish on hit a well placed D normal would pretty much stuff out alot of magnet attempts [i think Nu's standing 4D works {but that could just be shitty players}]. For the close range game, it's a case of get the hell off me, if you've conditioned them to respect your options 236C'll work wonders, otherwise it's more forcing TK214D/236D mix ups to send them back into the keep away zone. Koko's one weakness is if you stay ontop of her she can't get going, that well, so, do what we do best, and stay ontop, at the other side of the screen! =3

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We can stop her though. Like Sphinx said, we can directly challenge her fireball set-ups. We also don't need to worry about the lightning poles either. It is the gravitations and her mobility that make this tough. You want to avoid being next to a gravitation so she can't just teleport in between 5DD > anything and punish (though you can bait this easily enough). You also can't use 214D near a gravitation since she can teleport right behind you, making it useless. That teleport makes things way more annoying. The teleport's distance is affected by gravity so that is nice.

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The Kokonoe player I played against in tournament didn't use fireballs at all. Instead he played a strong Graviton game.

He put Gravitons at my locations and if I didn't get hit, it would throw me right next to him for his pressure or force me to whiff my D moves into punishing combos. I would say when Gravitons are out to seldom use D moves. Ground Graviton Activates can be beaten with normals since it's got 17 frames to cancel into any other move, making it 23 frames to get to her 5A. My best bet would be 5BB on reaction since it's fast and can whiff gatling into 6B. If they do Air Graviton Activate, she's got j.A with a lot of priority; I'm thinking 6A/2C at that point, 2D may work.

Her pressure game feels really tight for Nu. Luckily she's got slower normals than Nu so any attempts to stagger pressure can be punished. You can punish Graviton Summons since she's got 24 frames to cancel (think of it as our 22A in mid pressure). Only problem I haven't figured out yet, what signifies the end/the biggest gap to the pressure.

In Summary, don't feel afraid to play a close game. Seldom play the long range game unless they try to themselves or you can guarantee it will work.

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Fireballs aren't really useful for Kokonoe outside of oki situations since Nu is one of the character that can easily stuff the fireball from anywhere on the screen. The more annoying thing is definitely her just setting up a gravitation and letting it stay there. D swords near full screen can either be stuffed by her activation or be made to whiff by teleport. If she stuffs them by activating gravitation, she can teleport in on you for free and start her pressure.

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The Kokonoe player I played against in tournament didn't use fireballs at all. Instead he played a strong Graviton game.

He put Gravitons at my locations and if I didn't get hit, it would throw me right next to him for his pressure or force me to whiff my D moves into punishing combos. I would say when Gravitons are out to seldom use D moves. Ground Graviton Activates can be beaten with normals since it's got 17 frames to cancel into any other move, making it 23 frames to get to her 5A. My best bet would be 5BB on reaction since it's fast and can whiff gatling into 6B. If they do Air Graviton Activate, she's got j.A with a lot of priority; I'm thinking 6A/2C at that point, 2D may work.

Her pressure game feels really tight for Nu. Luckily she's got slower normals than Nu so any attempts to stagger pressure can be punished. You can punish Graviton Summons since she's got 24 frames to cancel (think of it as our 22A in mid pressure). Only problem I haven't figured out yet, what signifies the end/the biggest gap to the pressure.

In Summary, don't feel afraid to play a close game. Seldom play the long range game unless they try to themselves or you can guarantee it will work.

I can help you with the matchup if you guys want. I don't know what Nu's options are, but I can tell you where my largest gaps exist.

1) 2C, while + on block, is the end of my pressure string unless there is a graviton BEHIND me or already behind the Nu. I have 3 options here if I want to continue pressure - 6D > 236D to force you to block and reset the string (+24 on block, but 36f startup; beats delayed jumps or backdashes), delayed 3C to catch jumps and 6D punish attempts (true end to blockstring), 5C stagger to catch punish attempts (higher payout than 3C). If there is a graviton behind me, 2C is +2-3 (can't be bothered to check) and so I can simply do xxx > 2C > 2A > stuff > 2C to make you want to fidget.

2) This didn't come up much in our match, but if you let me get away with a graviton in a blockstring, that opens you up to a whole new level of absurdity. If you're afraid of activate, that's PERFECT for me; you're going to have to KNOW the graviton is coming and punish me for it, otherwise I get unreactable 50/50s in the blockstring. But remember, it's 36f of startup, that's more than enough to punish me.

3) Any thing after 3C is unsafe. From what I read (again, I didn't test this) is that the second hit of 3C is mid, so you can block that standing to IB it. That would make me -3 which would be the end of my pressure. Usually, to prevent this from happening, I'll do 3C(1) > 6D > 236D (no one has caught on to this yet; it's not good) which is hella punishable. Since 3C doesn't pull you back in on the first hit, you could probably do 5D to punish it (not the best, but at least you're out).

4) If I do 236D > 22C on block, I'm punishable. Mash me out. I think I'm still negative if you get hit while on the ground, but this would require testing. PSN sometime? =P

5) 6B is -2 on block, which means it's -4 on IB. Startup of 22A is something along the lines of 16f, so point blank, you can 5A me between that so I don't get that blockstring. If I'm farther away, it becomes risky but we could think of an option. At max distance, you can just IB > Backdash but point blank I can punish with 3C (at least I can with most other characters. Again, testing.)

Hope this was helpful. I think you might want to be in Lambda mode since if I put out a graviton you can't really use D moves. Instead, try to Act Parser me to punish my zoning attempts. Might work out.

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I've really found playing this matchup closeup helps a lot more than trying to zone. Just play from mid-range and use 5Cs when baiting teleport.

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Dunno what you are smoking. Nu 5C is active long enough to fatal kokonoe wakeup teleport with the last hit if you meaty. (or I'm consistently messing up my meatys, in which case I'm amazed I'm so bad i can fuck up meatying consistently)

 

it easily punishes kokonoe teleport or otherwise forces her to block while staying outside superball range.

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 I'm consistently messing up my meatys, in which case I'm amazed I'm so bad i can fuck up meatying consistently

 

Yup. the frame data is the frame data, unless one of those changed. 

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wow, I totally read the frame data wrong. 30+ frames?I sometimes OD through that or just neutral wakeup. someone doing it way too meaty.. my bad.

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