[CP] Noel Vermillion - Q&A Thread

[Arcus Diabolus]

They use j.C because it's her best air to ground normal and it can be drive cancelled.

But last time I checked it doesn't hit overhead, right? So wouldn't the better idea be to use J.B instead, despite the angle and shorter range?

 

Also, does Noel have a better Air to Air against Haku than her J.C? When I try, he just hits my projectile and me with his J.C, so I end up eating the bubble that follows as well. I tried giving J.B a shot, but the range sucks and I find I have to block in the air instead. 

[LunaKage]

j.C has a better hitbox. 99% of the time, when Noel jumps, she's not trying to hit someone overhead anyway. We use j.C because it has a better downward hitbox, and is actually really good at hitting people out of stuff. If you're opponent blocks it, that's reward enough, since now you're in control for the time being.

 

As far as Air-to-Air against Hakumen, j.C really is the best bet from our max A-to-A range. Though if you find yourself closer than normal, j.A is your best bet. Hakumen is an extremely hard matchup, so don't expect us to tell you anything that will be a game changer. Not only do you have to out play him, you have to do it without making any mistakes, and maybe then, you might win if you're lucky enough.

[Arcus Diabolus]

Yeah, I figured...

 

I was hoping there was something I was missing when I hit this wall of mine. I'm plenty good at reading him, but my lack of safe options are just forcing me to go Ragna, who I do really well at, but as someone who wants to be a Noel main rather than a Ragna main, this is frustrating.

[legacy49i]

Hakumen isn't that bad of a match-up.  I personally have more trouble with Tager.

 

When I play against a Hakumen, a lot of times I will let him come to me, since his mobility is lacking, and use that to my advantage.  Most Hakumen (Hakumens?  Hakumi?) will air dash in because that's the quickest way in, and you can anti-air that shit and turn it around.  Although, this was a LOT easier in CS2/CSEX when you could 4D FC that and rape.  Just keep in mind that some people will become privy to this, and do stuff like air dash in to Drive and counter your anti-air.  So as I always say, you've got to stay unpredictable.

[LunaKage]

You can't really say the matchup isn't that bad simply because the Hakumen players you fight follow the netplay flowchart and get destroyed because of it.

 

When giving matchup advice I usually assume the Hakumen player is good.

[legacy49i]

Well, I can't really endorse anything that's outside of my own experience, so I can't automatically agree with you.  But obviously that doesn't make you wrong.  Of course it doesn't automatically make me right, either.  What are we talking about again?

 

Anyway, counter-picking isn't going to make you any better with your match-up.  I say keep on losing and use that to build your knowledgebase. 

[Arcus Diabolus]

Well, I can't really endorse anything that's outside of my own experience, so I can't automatically agree with you.  But obviously that doesn't make you wrong.  Of course it doesn't automatically make me right, either.  What are we talking about again?

 

Anyway, counter-picking isn't going to make you any better with your match-up.  I say keep on losing and use that to build your knowledgebase. 

I dont necessarily auto pick Ragna when I see Haku. I'll play the game with Noel first to see how it goes, and if it goes wrong, I then make that swap. 

[legacy49i]

That's just the same.  If you're only willing to win as Noel, you'll only play against lesser opponents that never put you out of your comfort zone, and you'll never get better.

[Arcus Diabolus]

That's just the same.  If you're only willing to win as Noel, you'll only play against lesser opponents that never put you out of your comfort zone, and you'll never get better.

True, but I'd rather not lose my 2 out of 3 matches. lol :D

[GreeniX]

Well, I can't really endorse anything that's outside of my own experience, so I can't automatically agree with you.  But obviously that doesn't make you wrong.  Of course it doesn't automatically make me right, either.  What are we talking about again?

Hakumen's specific mechanics regarding meter gain means that he is getting paid for doing nothing, and Noel is not. Smart Hakumen players thrive on keeping the situation at neutral and grasping offensive momentum when they see an opening that is NOT airdashing blindly and/or when they have sufficient meter to justify high risk / high reward plays.

 

That is to say, beating an overaggressive Hakumen player can be as simple as you said, and if that's who you're fighting then do play it like that. But the matchup still kinda blows if both players know what they are doing because Noel is the one who has to take risks to get in while getting poked and anti-aired and countered. That and the fact that the usual Noel motto of "at least now that I made the guy block I can do good stuff" falls apart against counters.

[legacy49i]

If you elevate the playing field significantly, and only pair very high level players, Noel will almost always have it tough.  She really doesn't have much going for her.  She isn't the fastest, doesn't have the highest damage output, doesn't have the best range, etc, etc, etc.  She is incredibly average, and doesn't really have any tricks up her sleeve.  At very high levels, you gotta win pretty much entirely with fundamentals. 

 

However, in the world of PSN (my world, mind you) that doesn't really matter.  It's plenty easy to trip up your average PSN user. 

 

You really need to match your level of play with your opponents level of play.  If you're trying to play it smart, and you're opponent is just mashing shit out, not caring about the result, you're probably gonna take a lot of hits.  If you realize that your opponent isn't playing smart, and you similiarly (though in an opposite way) don't play smart, you can win very easily.

[Ayane]

5D was way better than 4D in CS1, as far as invuln goes. Full Body invuln after the 5th frame until the 19th. Though 4D in Extend was the best drive starter we ever had ever.

 

Ever.

Bring back the meterless 7K 4D FC combos!

Also yea Haku MU is def one in his favor and good haku's can actually beat your AA with their jump in (j.2C I think) easily.

 

Tager is another hard one at first but it's basically because you have to fight Tager way different than you fight other characters. He's immune to half of your moveset during a lot of his moves. Also you get to respect his vortex; which is rediculous :D

 

Here's how I play that MU and this is what Shino did as well. Match starts: IAD back j.C. I think he literally can not do anything to stop you and sometimes (bad) Tager's 2D at you as their opener and the j.C will CH them and let you get a free crouch combo. After you are full screen you can just start optic barrelling the shit out of him until he remembers about sledge. Then, once he remembers he has that you get to try and perfectly space/time 5B for a CH combo. You can 4D sledge too but if he follows up with hammer (also projectile armor) then he will most likely hit you. If you somehow perfectly time it you can 4D him during the hammer part and get a hit.

 

Don't try to AA him everytime. His "peoples elbow" move is a good AA bait and is also a FC for him. If you block that though you can punish him.

 

Smarter Tager players will most likely opt for his spark bolt charge over approaching you with sledge. You can punish the recov of the charge with OB but It's probably not worth it to let him get his spark bolt so easily. So you run up to him to stop him right? Well that move has armor (except to lows and throws) and he can easily 360 you out of anything you do while approaching....except air moves ofc.

 

Luckily your best air to ground move is a projectile so he's already armoring that a lot of the time. But let's say you do get to start pressure on him. Get ready to use 5B and jump cancel it a ton on most Tagers. They are spamming that grab like its the only thing he's got and it's most likely going to come out at the next gap in your pressure. He has a AA grab too (623C) but if you jc j.A I'm pretty sure you just beat that move by slapping his hand before it becomes active. Also if you start drive pressure keep d.2D in mind to dodge 360 attempts.

 

If you stay a little over 5B max range away from him you can kind of dance around in that area and see if he feels like whiffing any normals. His normals are pretty big but also pretty slow so you can often just slap him for whiffing them.

 

If you get caught in his vortex you get to play rock paper scissors with him. backdash beats 5A, 360, and maybe 5B? (his little boot kick) but loses to 5C and probably 5D. Jump beats 360 and loses to 5A (you get caught in jump startup). Block loses to 360 and...blocks everything else. 4D beats 5A/C/D and loses to 5B/360/what ever else 4D loses to. If you feel like blowing 100 meter (or 50 on a correct guess) you can Fenrir in hopes of beating one of his moves. If he blocks you can RC and escape. If he jumps over the first hit you get punished and lose 50 meter.

 

Just a side note: If you often barrier block on wake up or just at all. Remember that you can't hold up while barriering to jump out of it, so you might get grabbed a lot if your trying to up back but also pressed barrier (trying to block an air unblockable).

 

If you get magnetized and are at neutral still. Don't jump. Either spam backdash or wait for him to whiff one of his vaccum moves and slap him while you're getting sucked in.

Tager has lot's of gimmicks. You pretty much have to fall for all of them before you can understand what to do about them so go ahead and be ready to be getting grabbed in the most awkward ways for a while.

 

The last piece of advice as always for beating Tager with Noel is to pick Mu 12.

[legacy49i]

That last post really belongs in the match-up section.

 

Also, I find it better to 6D against Sledge rather than 4D.  I've never caught the Hammer portion when I use 6D, but I frequently do when I use 4D.

[Litherain-XIII]

you can just do 4D > spring raid to beat sledge and hammer. tager basically cant do anything against this once he comits to sledge in relative close range so he gets CH out of the whole thing either by 4D or the spring raid afterwards since spring raid has invincibility from frame 1 to 10 so he eats a free hit mostly. _-_ or atleast thats what happens for me. try it out.

[legacy49i]

But isn't 4D considered a projectile?  If he's semi-close by holding Sledge B and you 4D while he holds still, won't everything miss?

 

6D has forward movement, hits low, and isn't a projectile so regardless of whether he holds Sledge B or lets it rip right away, if you 6D on reaction you'll win every time.

 

Seems that 4D - Anything working is somewhat situational, whereas you can just mash 6D on the first sight of Sledge B and just win.

[LunaKage]

4D has full body invuln, Sledge hits body.

 

Basically what he's saying is that you can 4D on reaction and beat sledge during it's recovery frames after it whiffs through you, and if he tries to hammer right afterwARD, THE sPRING raid will punish that, since Hammer now absorbs projectiles too, so Hammer will eat the tail end of 4D that WOULD have hit sledge's recovery.

 

6D is really risky due to how slow it is to start up, and how long it takes for it's body invuln to kick in.

[Ayane]

Yea 4D>SR is a good idea unless he doesn't hammer and just blocks it. But if you can react to hammer with SR then ya wutevs. I played a pretty good tager in ranked today maybe I can upload that vid and link it in the MU thread or something if people want it. I'll copy and paste the Tager MU section of my post and put it there too. I posted it here first though because somebody here was asking about it.

[crimsonstardust]

Quick question about the frame data on 6C, is the block stun in the wiki for the second part of 6C or the first part? If its the second part does anyone one have the frame data on her block stun for the first hit? 

[Litherain-XIII]

no we dont have the frame data on the 2nd hit unfortunately. i persoanlly believe its the whole move in general of 16 blockstun. they both feel the same on block really. i have a weird feeling its slightly shorter on 6C(2) for the opponent to mash something when tested but for the most part the blockstun is the same for both hits.

[legacy49i]

4D has full body invuln, Sledge hits body.

 

Basically what he's saying is that you can 4D on reaction and beat sledge during it's recovery frames after it whiffs through you, and if he tries to hammer right afterwARD, THE sPRING raid will punish that, since Hammer now absorbs projectiles too, so Hammer will eat the tail end of 4D that WOULD have hit sledge's recovery.

 

6D is really risky due to how slow it is to start up, and how long it takes for it's body invuln to kick in.

 

 

4D doesn't actually beat Sledge.  It just causes both to whiff.  Well, that's not entirely true.  If your 4D active frames land on his recovery frames, you'll win.  Unless he Hammers.  Both 4D and Sledge have follow-ups, so you're relying on your follow-up to beat his.  6D will actually beat Sledge.  Here's what I've learned regarding Sledge:

 

Sledge A comes out immediately.  If you're in a block string and see Sledge A, just stay cool.

 

Sledge B has a delay, regardless of whether or not they hold it.  If you see Tager take a Sledge stance, and it doesn't IMMEDIATELY come out, then just start mashing 6D.  If he didn't hold, his Sledge will meet your invincibility and you'll get a CH 6D.  If he did hold, your 6D will still get a CH while he's just standing there. 

 

You're saying that 4D is a better option, but you're adding more variables.  6D can win on the first hit everytime.

[Ayane]

I'll have to try 6D more but I understand why others are saying it's not so great. Honestly I don't try to 4D sledge too much anyways. If we are in neutral im going to 5B it and if we are in pressure ill wait for hammer to start then start my 4D.

 

But basically the entire strategy of fighting tager is to never let him get into a place where he can start pressure.

[legacy49i]

Well, what I'm getting out of it is - Spring Raid beats Hammer.  But I'm saying, why let it get that far?

 

So I'm looking at the frame data for 6D.  Hopefully someone here can read it better than me, but this is what I see:

 

25 frame start-up, 2 active frames, 14+24 frames of recovery (I assume the +24 is the reload animation).  A total of 65 frames for the whole, unchained move.  It also says that invul is frames 7 to 26.  Now, that means from frame 7 until the attack lands, she's covered. 

 

So the only possible way for Sledge to beat 6D is for it to hit in the first 6 frames.  Sledge B has at least a 35 frame start-up.  This means you have a 28 frame advantage with 6D, which equates to almost a half second.  You only have a 6 frame window of being able to get hit (1/10th of a second), so unless you are very poor at recognizing a Sledge B, you will never lose with 6D.

 

I was gonna do the math on the Hammer follow-up, but I'm pretty certain that 6D's active frames will always fall before the active frames of Hammer if the Sledge portion meets your invul frames.

 

Edit -

 

I'm sure you could quantify 4D's use against Sledge B and show it to be legit, but like I said earlier, then you have to rely on a follow-up.

[Arcus Diabolus]

The only reason I think 6D works better than 4D is because some of the times I've tried 4D, I miss the invincible frames and get hit anyway.

 

Also, I just thought of something. If, hypothetically, Noel could use Optic Barrel in the air, how useful or broken would that be?

[legacy49i]

Actually, I just compared 6D and 4D.  4D is invul on the 1st frame.  Frame 1 to 26 vs 7 to 26 on 6D.  4D also has more active frames: 7 vs 2.

 

So, on paper 4D is better in all regards, until you factor in Hammer.  4D won't beat Hammer, but 6D will. 

 

56 Frames for raw Sledge B

62 Frames to Hammer

42 to Spring Raid

 

Depending on how quickly you can react to a Sledge (14 Frames), it's possible for Tager to not Hammer, then block the Spring Raid.  6D can never be blocked because active frames occur before Sledge B recovery, 6D will beat Hammer, and Sledge whiffs on 6D and can't be Rapid Cancelled.

 

Also, keep in mind what came before Sledge.  5D will put you in 22 frames of block stun, which would soak up enough frames to make Spring Raid blockable on a no-Hammer situation.

 

Edit:  You know, I don't think that 6D actually beats Hammer.  However, 6D will always come out first, so Hammer active frames will never happen.

[Arcus Diabolus]

I suppose the best part is it gets around Tager's projectile invincibility as well.