[CP] Noel Vs. Rachel Matchup Discussion

[LunaKage]

Discussion About the Rachel matchup goes here. First post may be edited as important information arises.

[legacy49i]

what's the best way for Noel to approach characters with a strong zoning game like Nu, Mu, Rachel, etc. 

All 3 of those opponents are totally different.  Dodging arcing lobelia, pumpkin, George, and lightning rods (Rachel) is different than dodging summoned swords (Nu) or pre-set turrets (Mu).

 

In some cases, the hazards are in plain site.  You just gotta read your opponent and decide when they'll become a problem and how big of a problem.  George is a BIG problem.  I will 3C to kill at first chance.  Other stuff, like Nu's swords, will come out of nowhere, so you gotta stay unpredicable.  If you're always jumping in or air-dashing in, they'll always aim high.  So change it up.  Whiffed swords give you a chance to get in.

 

Also, Rachel and Mu will use zoning to hold you down until they can get in close for the real damage.  A character like Nu will try to stay away more because they can get damage even from far away.  You really need to stay close to Nu if you want to win.

[LunaKage]

Most of your points are correct, but dude, never 3C just to kill George, that shit will get you murdered at worst, and put in a blockstring at best. Your best bet against George is a quick 2A > 2A, or 2B > 2B, a single 2C will also do the job. All of these options have far less risk than throwing out a 3C that was never intended to hit Rachel.

[legacy49i]

Most of your points are correct, but dude, never 3C just to kill George, that shit will get you murdered at worst, and put in a blockstring at best. Your best bet against George is a quick 2A > 2A, or 2B > 2B, a single 2C will also do the job. All of these options have far less risk than throwing out a 3C that was never intended to hit Rachel.

I can honestly say that I've NEVER been punished for 3Cing George.  Obviously, I never do it unless Rachel is far enough away to not get me before I recover.  If Rachel is close by, I usually just jump around to avoid him.  Though I didn't know that one 2C would also kill him.

 

Also, "JUST to kill George?"  I can't be letting him wander around.  He's gotta go, and asap.  If you forget that he's there for even a minute, you can either give Rachel a free combo, or lose ALL your momentum.

[LunaKage]

using 3C to kill him WILL make you lose all momentum. If you're not getting punished for it, you must be fighting the wrong Rachels. All it takes is a quick 66D > 5B and Noel gets hit hard. Even if you're a full screen away, Rachel can still wind in and start pressure. Which was the exact thing you're trying to avoid by killing George.

[Litherain-XIII]

man i personally just run up 2A > 5B > jump barrier or IAD forward to kill george then have to option to jump barrier afterwards or to try to catch her after killing goerge with 2A > 5B. thats just me. Sometimes 2B > 5B is better simply out of hitbox concerns for 2A whiffing if you try to hit it max range by the sprites.

[LunaKage]

yeah, since you can jump cancel the 5B that's always a much better option, 2C is also good since it doesn't really have any recovery, just in case you don't wanna put yourself in the air against an approaching Rachel, which can be scary.

[Demon Wind Bomb]

I've been using 6D to kill George.

[Litherain-XIII]

i dont like using drives to kill it because once you go drive to kill george you HAVE to and force to commit to drives and nothing else which is unsafe and gambling on drive follow ups into a SR , AST, or BT  which in most cases will get you hit for free. i could see if we still had drive cancel from EX to go 6D or 4D > OB to kill the george then attempt to snipe rachel afterwards but this is not the case in CP so it rather...unsafe imo.

[LunaKage]

WAITTTT LITH that gives me an idea which I've never tried.

we can cancel into normal specials from drive as long as they are hit or blocked.

there's a good chance George counts!

[Litherain-XIII]

WAITTTT LITH that gives me an idea which I've never tried.

we can cancel into normal specials from drive as long as they are hit or blocked.

there's a good chance George counts!

 

Luna....it doesnt work... T_T she cant cancel it if she hit george with drives...youre basically stuck in drives as i said unless im missing something because i tested it several times... it can work if it hits something like a guardpoint or a clash.

[legacy49i]

using 3C to kill him WILL make you lose all momentum. If you're not getting punished for it, you must be fighting the wrong Rachels.

I think I must be fighting bad Rachels.  I've been pondering this since my last post.

 

Also, if you're both at neutral and you 3C George, you won't lose any momentum that you never had in the first place.  I'm talking about if you're pressuring Rachel, and George just casually walks up, you're done. 

 

Also, what about Chamber Shot?  I'd imagine that would one shot George.

 

And I seem to have forgotten that hitting Rachel will dispel George.  In a match, if I'm close to Rachel, I'll try to hit her to get rid of George.  The only time I go straight to George is when there's a wide space.  If I play a Rachel online anytime soon, I'll post a video or something.

[Litherain-XIII]

The issue of momentum that 3C presents is the fact that you lose instant mobile adjusment on the field. thats the momentum you lose not offensive momentum. the fact you have to commit to a 3C on a 20 start up move then go to 32 frame of recovery, hope to God rachel doesnt hit you in this time frame ( if they're good rachels you will get hit) then try to maneuver around again. youre stuck in 1 spot for a while unable to move your character accordingly to the situations for atleast over 30 to 50 something frames stuck in killing george in basically CH state allowing for a free rachel combo into potentially taking up to 4k or less thats pretty long and terrible when you can just 2B > 5B kill the george and then move accordingly to the sitation on the field with a jump cancellable 5B and barrier if needed by jumping into it forward or backwards. as i explained earlier you are not force to commite to anything after killing george this way and is one of  the safest ways to kill it and be able to still have the ability to maneuver with the same momentum you initially started off with if not get to a better momentum shift by IAD forward after the 5B if rachel does something thats not safe or isnt expecting you to IAD at her so quickly and can change the flow of the round just because of that 1 moment since you need to get to her and 3C in this situation doesnt do that for you at all. Also chamber shot presents a very similar scenario. the issue isnt about killing george in 1 hit its about dealing with it without forcing yourself to an unsafe situation or something thats gonna take you too long to shift gears dealing both rachel and george with speed and efficiency in mind.

[Ayane]

So besides George. What is there to do against Rachel? I'm fine with our neutral but against a good Rachel it seems like if you get hit you may as well set the controller down and go do something else until the next round. Was playing not too long ago and if I got hit first then I would die before I even got meter to CA lol.