[CP] Azrael vs. Jin Match-up Discussion

[zeth07]

Discussion about the Jin match-up goes here.

First post may be edited as important information arises. If any information seems wrong please feel free to correct it, hopefully with actual proof / examples. Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

• Will post info later.
  

From jp Azrael Wiki

起き攻めは5A、2Aを重ねれば裂氷を詐欺れる。

対空大事。安易な飛びは通さない。逃がさない。地上戦は決して無理せずじりじりと。

-C系統が強いので、うかつに飛んじゃいけない。

-歩き、ステップなどでラインをあげてく

-じれて飛んできたら5A、2Cなどで迎撃。

(発生前に空ダJ2Cとかに潰される事が多いので、6Bはあまり機能しない？)

-高めの空ダは空投げしたい。最低でもJAはガードさせる

-中距離になるとジンは5C、2Dを振りはじめるはず

-C系統にグスタフで差し返したいが、2Dがあるので無理はしない

-2Dはしっかり直ガ

-見えるなら2Dをグロウラーで吸うのもあり。ただスカると手痛いコンボをくらうのでご利用は計画的に。

Need a proper translation.

Notable Matches:

Murishin (JI) vs. Dogura (AZ)

Tahichi (AZ) vs. Jin

Tahichi (AZ) vs. Jin

Tahichi (AZ) vs. Jin

Dogura (AZ) vs. 2 Different Jins *N

[Beatrush]

If you block Jin's Ice Fang Super (the fast wave projectile one), as long as you weren't at the end of the screen when you blocked it, you can punish the recovery with Blackhawk Stinger.

[AMB Bakery]

What is the best answer for when Jin is just kind of zoning/safely approaching with j.C?

I know there's realistically no anti-air option for that situation, so I was wondering what would be the safest approach to get in range to combat him as he comes down. 6C, Gustaf, and Forward dash all seem to be bad options. I've caught it with Cobra/Leopard a couple of times though, hilariously.

[Lucalibur]

No real way to get pass that, I'm afraid. I just toss out a Gustaf after he lands(if I'm close enough), but that is dangerous if he decides to just 5C or whatever after it(despite the landing recovery). If you ate an ice sword, you can keep the Phalanx stock in order to scare the Jin away from using such moves, and if he does continue then fire the thing and either go into BHS for over 3K or get close and pressure him. Considering a lot of Jin's moves are projectiles, it should not be VERY hard to gain a Phalanx stock.

[Famhuss]

No real way to get pass that, I'm afraid. I just toss out a Gustaf after he lands(if I'm close enough), but that is dangerous if he decides to just 5C or whatever after it(despite the landing recovery). If you ate an ice sword, you can keep the Phalanx stock in order to scare the Jin away from using such moves, and if he does continue then fire the thing and either go into BHS for over 3K or get close and pressure him. Considering a lot of Jin's moves are projectiles, it should not be VERY hard to gain a Phalanx stock.

This post got me thinking so I researched a bit with the wiki which left me with some questions. I would test them myself but I don't have the game yet.

First things first, how important is to have a phalanx stock in this matchup? If it turns out to be important I have some more questions about aquiring stocks in this matchup.

According to the wiki the following moves Jin has have a projectile attribute:

1. All drive series

2. All ice swords

3. Ice wave super(632146c iirc)

4. Yukikaze/Winters riposte(the slash has a P attribute)

So, I was wondering about a couple of scenario's if you were to use growler:

1. Jin does 5C> IAD j.D against a blocking Azrael, would it be realistic to counter this move with growler? Would it even be advantagous?

2. Jin chooses to end a string with his 236a to push you away when you are blocking, can Azrael use growler in order to absorb the sword(it has 14 frames of startup). Would there be an advantage to do this?

3. Jin uses 2D as oki, should Azrael growler this?

4. Jin uses 236D as oki, should Azrael growler this?

5. Azrael hits Yukikaze with growler, would he be able to absorb the follow up slash and gain a stock for it?

6. Providing point 5 is true, should you go out of your way to aquire a stock in this fashion?

7. Jin does his ice wave super, Azrael isn't doing anything at that moment. Can you absorb the super wave on reaction with growler?

8. If 7 is true, would you have enough time to fire a phalanx afterwards and still hit Jin?

9. Jin does his ice wave super, Azrael isn't doing anything but has a stock available. Can you beat his super with your phalanx and go for a BHS if you have meter?

I'm pretty curious so I hope someone might want to look into this. Thanks for the long read if you stuck it out :P

[AMB Bakery]

I find myself gaining stock most the time after a fullscreen ice sword, predicted 2D in neutral, or absorbing 6D during a blockstring. If he fires off D ice sword or super I just get full stock. That said I can answer some of the above post's questions easily after having played the matchup extensively.

1. No, anytime Jin tries to go for j.D mix-up, just anti-air or block instead, burst/counter-assault if you think you're going to eat the mix-up (provided that the success of the mix-up would result in the end of the round/match).

2. You can do this, but only if he does it predictably. Even then, ending a string with 236A is not that advantageous for Jin. If he tries to go in after ending with 236A, you can definitely punish. If he plays lame after ending with 236A, then the growler would be worth it.

3. I haven't had Jin use 2D as oki on me but I wouldn't recommend this just because I've missed absorbing 2D on several occasions.

4. He shouldn't be using 236D as oki anymore because of how fast it travels (unless it's after some fullscreen hizansen knockdown, I guess), but if you think you can absorb it, do it, cos it gives you 3 stocks.

5/6. I haven't done this but you probably shouldn't do it. The actual thing that counters Yukikaze is 6A as the body invuln lets you go through the slash. Then again, optimally you should want to let it whiff and then punish him anyway (free counter hit).

7/8. You can absorb Touga on reaction or close to it, but I don't think the Phalanx afterwards will actually hit him (might make him block though, or at least force him into the air).

[LegendaryRath]

I'll try to help a little bit with this matchup, since I've been playing lots of Jin on netplay. But first...

6A beats Yukikaze lol. It happened to me in a match where I 6A'd after Jin teched, experimenting if it would beat one of his DPs. After Yukikaze activated, the invul from 6A was still active enough to make it wiff completely. I couldn't punish but it was interesting nontheless.

--

So for starters, here's some things in neutral to avoid (unless the situation presents itself):

-Gustaf

-6C

-Air dashing

-Forward dash (use sparingly)

Simply put, Jin's normals are too good for us to be reckless against. His drives are especially hindering. Jin 5D, 2D, j.D, swords, and basically all his drives are active for weeks, flat out beating Gustaf, 6C, and many of our usual options to get in. The only way to win in neutral is to be more patient than Jin. You can wait for him to wiff drives/swords and then take the opportunity to get in. When jin throws out swords, you can either absorb them (which net you a stock) or evade them (and move forward). Both have benefits. Once you have stocks you can use them to punish wiffed drives. I feel like 236B (Phalanx cannon) > 66 2369A (dash gustaf) is best here. It does roughly 1.5k and gets us in.

Once you're in you need to be cautious of his DPs. In my experience, 6A wont beat his C and D DPs, unless you delay it (in which case he could mash out or escape). I'll test it in training mode to be sure. On blocked 623C (The vertical, slow DP) you get a lot of time to punish with 5D, 6D, 3D, 5C, basically anything you want. 623D (the double hitting DP) has a fantastic hit box all around him and tends to be their go-to reversal with meter. On block and in range, if Jin holds it for an unblockable, you can 6A and invul through it. If you're farther away, then you might risk it wiffing. In the corner 6A nets fantastic damage, 4.5k if you do a real combo afterwards, since you probably have a weakpoint at this stage.

Some other things...

-It seems we can safe jump after TCL, since his go-to DPs are fairly slow. 623B might beat us though.

-dash through TCL and other crossups will beat 623D (in a sense). We get nailed by the first hit, but the second hit will wiff the other direction. We recover first, so punish accordingly. Midscreen you'll get pushed too far back to do much more than gustaf though. In the corner, we'll stay within 5B range. 5B > 3C is a good punish here.

-Jin is +3 after 2D. If you block this, don't mash. Either respect his pressure, risk Growler, or backdash out.

-Don't always default to absorbing projectiles. While we can't get punished for it, he gets to advance a bit each time we growler. Mix it up a bit and keep track of how much stock you have saved up. If you have more than you need, then just evade projectiles and keep pushing him towards the corner.

-This isn't Jin specific, but since he'll give us more stocks than most characters, keep track of what you have. Don't just start spamming them fullscreen like a new Tager who got spark bolt for the first time.There's no point. Try to punish drives, save them for combos (I'm working on that part), or as an end of the round "you still had that?!?" scenario.

[Lucalibur]

I believe all the answers got answered in the posts above, but I might as well give my two cents anyway. I think you should get the Phalanx stocks you need and not any more, maybe punish some of his bullshit with it once or twice to scare the player. The mental effect of knowing anything you do can suddenly get punished for 1K and practically losing all momentum can easily get people to do stupid mistakes. Don't go out of your way to gain stocks, and don't use them all, but DO remind the Jin player you CAN use that tool to punish his bullshit from anywhere on the screen. Without his projectiles, Jin's neutral effectiveness drops sharply.

As it was mentioned, you need to be more patient than Jin here. That is really the only way you gonna get anything done here. Make good use of your tools, specially your limited Phalanx stocks. I think this move is probably one of our most important ones in this matchup.

[AMB Bakery]

Gustaf isn't always bad in neutral, actually. You can punish whiffed 2D with it, and you can also hit him out of the air if he's low enough. Forward dash also has a few ranges where it's good to use, mainly at the outer tip of 2D spacing, also goes under air-dashy mashy stuff. 6C and air dashing are probably the worst things you can do. 6C especially, though if you really want to mess with them, 6B 6C gatlings on whiff (as do 6D and 3D). Air dashing should only ever be done once you're in on them, though you can still maybe use it to make the Jin take the offensive/react defensively.

Some notes on Rath's notes:

-I've been doing forward dash once 2C after midscreen grounded TCL. It catches rolls and jump-outs, recovers in time to not get hit by wake-up anything, though it doesn't leave you much time to meaty or follow-up on whiff. Forward dash twice is also good cos you cross-up after the second dash.

-You shouldn't never mash after blocking 2D. It really depends on how and where you blocked it. If you blocked it at the end closest to Jin and you were crouching, okay, don't mash. IB'd it standing from around the middle? That's your mash out of ice-jail free card. It also depends on how he follows it up. His 5B may be 7f startup, but you can 2A under it at certain distances, I've caught my friend trying to run in me like this on multiple occasions. He can also jump after making you block 2D, in which case you can blow him up for jumping close to you so long as you watch him.

-Regarding Phalanx, if you only have one projectile, yes, don't just immediately discard it. Phalanx checks pretty much everything Jin can do on the ground without spending meter, which means he'll want to approach from the air, or if he's smart, make small approaches from the ground to try and get you to discard Phalanx. If you can use it right, Phalanx buffs Azrael's neutral game significantly.

[LegendaryRath]

Gustaf isn't always bad in neutral, actually. (My bad I should have elaborated on that more. It's a bad idea often in neutral, but an amazing get-in-there tool if you're reacting to wiffed normals or other situations where you know you wont get hit out of it.)You can punish whiffed 2D with it, and you can also hit him out of the air if he's low enough. Forward dash also has a few ranges where it's good to use, mainly at the outer tip of 2D spacing, also goes under air-dashy mashy stuff. 6C and air dashing are probably the worst things you can do. 6C especially, though if you really want to mess with them, 6B 6C gatlings on whiff (as do 6D and 3D). Air dashing should only ever be done once you're in on them, though you can still maybe use it to make the Jin take the offensive/react defensively.

Some notes on Rath's notes:

-I've been doing forward dash once 2C after midscreen grounded TCL. It catches rolls and jump-outs, recovers in time to not get hit by wake-up anything, though it doesn't leave you much time to meaty or follow-up on whiff. Forward dash twice is also good cos you cross-up after the second dash. (good stuff!)

-You shouldn't never mash after blocking 2D. It really depends on how and where you blocked it. If you blocked it at the end closest to Jin and you were crouching, okay, don't mash. IB'd it standing from around the middle? That's your mash out of ice-jail free card. It also depends on how he follows it up. His 5B may be 7f startup, but you can 2A under it at certain distances, I've caught my friend trying to run in me like this on multiple occasions. He can also jump after making you block 2D, in which case you can blow him up for jumping close to you so long as you watch him. (good to know, although I probably wont do much with this until I know a particular Jin's habits. I'd usually prefer to go with whichever option seems safest and not take unnecessary risks. However, if you know something will work in a situation, or you have a good read, go for it!

-Regarding Phalanx, if you only have one projectile, yes, don't just immediately discard it. Phalanx checks pretty much everything Jin can do on the ground without spending meter, which means he'll want to approach from the air, or if he's smart, make small approaches from the ground to try and get you to discard Phalanx. If you can use it right, Phalanx buffs Azrael's neutral game significantly. (I'll make a video [probably tomorrow] showing some ways to add damage into your confirms with phalanx)

..

[Warhound]

So basically we're tanking and waiting to punish in this match up. Because I'll be honest, this is horrendously frustrating.

[natearistata]

Waiting to punish against Jin is really just asking to be subject to endless pressure. Backdash and gtfo, then try to fight him in neutral. He still has the advantage there, but Jin's always been a character with very safe pressure in general.

[Warhound]

Okay, well, I'm fighting this Jin, and granted he knows what he's doing, but jesus, everything I do loses to this guy. His 2A is faster than ours, his 5B is faster than ours, his 5C is faster than ours. It's like he has an ABSOLUTE answer to everything we do.

[Lucalibur]

He kind of does, really. This matchup basically consists of waiting for the Jin to make a mistake and capitalize. If they play really safe and don't do mistakes, you're S.O.L.

[A.X.I.S.]

Match up is fine, Jin doesn't have anything that is really threatening, Jump in's can be answered with 5A/5B/6B

His pressure isn't scary midscreen, air normals are fine, ground game isn't that bad either 5C can lose to our 5A/5B.

5C makes it easy to shut down simple run in's, and gustav is a proper answer to him landing, 

6C even handles his jump out's proper.

 

Things to be mindful of?

 

Ice car is a low, IB it and punish.

5C>2D can mess us up if we are antsy, you can surprisingly enough IB the 5C and growler/dash forward 5A him.

Projectiles are food for growler please eat them.

 

 

In short be very proactive with Jin get into mid range and start from there.

Once you hit him its over.

[Warhound]

Things I have problems with:

 

Match up is fine, Jin doesn't have anything that is really threatening, Jump in's can be answered with 5A/5B/6B

Jump ins usually include his j.2C from what I've been observing. Az really lacks any true anti airs, 5A works if they are close and trying to cross up, as does 5B in some situations, and 6B is just straight wonky, but then again I haven't messed with it much. Most of the time, my moves get beaten by j.2C pretty clean. 5B as an answer seems really unreliable.

His pressure isn't scary midscreen, air normals are fine, ground game isn't that bad either 5C can lose to our 5A/5B.

Pressure isn't scary if he stays on the ground, but when they start jumping and crossing up with like, IAD > j.D then we have a problem. Dealing with mix-up is already an issue online. But otherwise no, his ground pressure can be crouch blocked. He can obviously zone with j.C and I've already stated my problems with j.2C. It's just fast, and while I'm sure j. B might be able to beat it...head to head, I tend to lose to it, not sure why. Maybe I'm not throwing it out fast enough.

5C makes it easy to shut down simple run in's, and gustav is a proper answer to him landing, 

Azrael's 5C? I suppose, but if he uses his drive it's over. Haven't had too many ops to just attack him landing, but I believe Gustav would be approprate, should he not IB it.

6C even handles his jump out's proper.

 

Things to be mindful of?

 

Ice car is a low, IB it and punish.

If I IB his initial Ice car hit, will a jab be able to beat his second hit? Or will I just have to guess whether or not he'll use it?

5C>2D can mess us up if we are antsy, you can surprisingly enough IB the 5C and growler/dash forward 5A him.

Elaborate, I'm not sure what you're saying here. So I IB his 5C and just Growler to get him off of me? I suppose if I think about it the only things he can do is jump, 6C and his drives afterwards.

Projectiles are food for growler please eat them.

 

 

In short be very proactive with Jin get into mid range and start from there.

Once you hit him its over.

 

I guess the Jins that a fight have probably been using him for awhile, and he never changes all that much, he just gets different combos. So, the ones I fight are pretty confident, and just keep on attacking. That j.2C man...I don't know why I can't get past it.

[Lucalibur]

Oh come on I know this matchup is a bitch but don't say Azrael doesn't have anti-airs. 2C covers just so many things, and 5B\6B usually deals with things it can't handle for whatever reason. Hell if you must you even have Growler though I highly recommend against anti-airing with such an unsafe tool.

 

If the Jin is trying to jump in with J.2C, then you can anti-air him with either 2C or 6B depending on the distance. In pressure J.2C can be anti-aired as well so long as you know it's coming or react to it(since JC resets are rather slow)

 

His pressure mid-screen is ok and his mixups aren't all that hot. He needs meter to convert 6A into damage and it's really hard to get hit by J.214D since it's easy to know when it's coming. Crossup J.Ds are a bit harder but unsafe, so they won't use it a lot. Still has some stuff you have to be wary of, but nothing incredibly bullshit tier like dealing with Litchi's mixups in the corner.

 

5C is usually too slow to compete with Jin's pokes, and it also gets outranged by 5D so you won't be using this a lot. Gustav is also a big no on Jin's close to landing, because smart ones will stick a J.C in just before landing to make impossible for you to approach, and all Gustav is going to get done here is have you rush head first on a pointy stick aiming at your eye.

 

What sort of Jin player is EVER going to use Ice Car in pressure? Other than once in a million gimmicks that never work anyway. Anyway I don't think you can poke him out of the follow up even on IB, but you can tell when he reaches the frame where doing the follow up is no longer available.

 

Using Growler after 5C because you think 2D is coming is a REALLY big commitment for little reward. Just backdash out of there, better be full-screen than getting pressured. Anything else you do is suicide unless you're 100% sure of what the enemy is gonna do.

[Warhound]

No, I guess it's not fair to say he doesn't have ANYTHING for an AA tool, I use 2C quite a bit for AAs to stuff jump ins or outs. But, like anyone, you have to be preemptive with him, if you can get him right as he's dashing in, or right as he's about to start it, great, you can stuff his j.2C. But after a certain animation frame, most tools you have against him will lose and it's all ogre. It's not like we're dealing with Ragna's 6A here.

 

Speaking of which, I beat a Ragna today by implementing Az's 6A to stuff jabs and and his 5B, which probably turned the game around for me. Is there any application for 6A in this match up? It could stuff his 5C in some occasions.

[Lucalibur]

6A can beat his DPs if timed properly and recovers in time to block C DP if used as a meaty iirc, but TK sentinel is probably better for oki.

[Zyed]

This match up is so fucking even but if the Azrael player mashes too much then Jin will just castrate you. Like seriously once this guy has you cornered or even blocking him for that matter, pushing buttons on any part of his game will just = counter hit. You have to back dash in the gaps or throw a sneaky growler field to get his annoying ass the fuck off. Plus, you can't make habits out of the growler or backdashes because Jin will scout that out and literally molest you in the corner for it and two piece kick you for a big ass combo. Now I know pressing 5A while he tries to do the spin kick during the block string seems very tempting. It never works u have to growler/backdash. Jin can really open you up because your only options for ending his pressure are those two tactics that can easily become habitual, or of course if u tech a sneaky ground throw. 

 

Jin resets the shit out of you. He crosses you up mid screen during pressure and does 5D. It sucks when it hits you but if you block it he's susceptible to antiair 5a. More reason why defense and patience helps u alot.

 

IAD 5B is safe to do while you're pressuring him because you're crossing up any DP input attempt and it's dumb hard for him to react with an instant DP. Even the weak faster one where he slaps your ass into the air. Unless it doesn't cross up. Be careful inserting this when you know its not going to cross up and as a matter of fact don't make your jumps on Jin too predictable because he will anti air you. Try to Dash cross up too. Crossing Jins up make them super salty. 

 

Baiting Jin is odee. Little bitch Jins think it's cool to DP you with the vertical slash at every situation (in the middle of strings, wake up, etc). Please bait. Please 3D. Please get 4.5 k damage.

 

Anti air the double jumpers. 5A

 

Don't anti air if hes just jumping and J.C. That shit is impenetrable

 

I do not agree with all this growler field talk against Jin's projectiles. You automatically let him in if he is not full screen when doing it. Growler is useful but not really that useful against Jin particularly. If you surprise him with it sure but don't go overboard.

 

edit- Growler actually is useful against Jin as long you don't use it recklessly. Growler projectiles are very sexy vs. Jin. 

So ya thats my exp with this match up after getting cornered and raped multiple times 

[Zyed]

Forgot to mention during this midscreen combo-  TCL (RC) (IAD) J.C, 6A, (IAD) J.C - Hornet or 5B is not worth using on Jin. Save the meter because Jin's hurtbox is too timing precise and is very likely to jump out of the 6A.

 

But TCL - Dash - Valiant works fine. 

[DaRealZil]

So, now that CP Extend has dropped and this match up is about to become more common then usual, has anyone taken any "notes" about what to do in this match up?

 

EDIT: I'm going to start things tomorrow for this match up. Since Extend dropped it makes me want to experiment in the lab again.

[Zyed]

Now that Jin is among the gods with Valk this match up most definitely got harder than b4.

 

Jin has more combo pathways and more damage midscreen now and if that's not already frightening, his projectiles are much faster. It certainly does not help that growler field can launch the projectile back even during the absorb animation however, because good Jin's jump alot during neutral and especially will long jump on us for free sometimes, and what's so BS about Jin's jump game against us is that our anti airs aren't exactly the best tools to counter it. If a Jin knows you're going to attempt to 2C (which is even more unsafe to use now) he will most definitely jump again in the air, fall on you with a button and get an extended combo because we are hit crouching automatically. 

 

I'm afraid to say that now that growler has no invulnerability that it's become "much" harder to deal with Jin's pressure that keeps Azrael in check quite alot..especially in the corner. We can't block and then throw it out during pressure. Which means we have to more rely on using back dash in between pressure to escape, and now that backdash has become one of the only defensive options for Azrael, that makes hard reads much more easier for Jin players since they do not ever have to worry about running into a growler. 

 

Winning this game now requires "alot" of experience blocking Jin and teching his green throws. As long as we improve on blocking his pressure and adapting to the mix ups, we could trap him in the corner and bait those DP attempts. :D