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zeth07

[CP] Azrael vs. Valkenhayn Match-up Discussion

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Discussion about the Valkenhayn match-up goes here.

First post may be edited as important information arises. If any information seems wrong please feel free to correct it, hopefully with actual proof / examples. Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

  • RIP
  • Will post info later.

From jp Azrael Wiki / jbbs:

60 :名無しさん:2013/01/22(火) 15:22:40 ID:JH2EF8fE0 狼戦は毎日10段超えの方とや

ってるので、一応気付いたことなど書き込みます

まず6Aですが、全くおすすめしません。

51に書いてあるとおり、硬直が長すぎて余裕で反撃されます。狼状態時に振るとか考え

られません。

地上ケニに合わせると言ってる方もいますが、見てからでは無敵は間に合いません。

むしろ地上ケニをバンバン振ってくる狼なんていません。

対空2Cも頭上を飛び越えられてBケニされるか、狼ゲージ使われて裏に周られます。硬直

も長すぎるのでおすすめしません。

対空で恐らく一番いいのは、5Aか昇りJC持続当てでしょうが、タイミングを間違うと狼A

に噛まれます。

空対地でのJBなども狼Bで余裕で潰されるので控えます。

空ダやグスタフなどで近づく場合は必ずjccを入れましょう。

そもそも近づく場合は歩きでジワジワ近づくのが一番です。

J2Cは相手の対空行動をずらせるので優秀ですが、相手が慣れて来たら避けられます。

6Cは余裕で6Aで返されるのでまず控えます。狼状態の時はそれなりに振っていいと思いま

す。

地上けん制は5Cが一番いいのですが、問題が一つだけあります。

問題とは爺6Bに潰されるということです。

むしろ爺側は中距離で6B振ってりゃいいというくらいまであります。

こちらのJBJCグスタフ5C6C全ての行動に勝つことが出来ます。

6Bは隙が少ないので硬直を刺すこともできません。

狼ウロウロ時にBHSはNG

避けられて6BFC>アズにゃん終了のお知らせ

グロウラーは狼Dから崩そうとしてきたところに割り込ませる

相手の起き攻め狼、起き攻め6Bには絶対ヤッチャダメ

勝ちパターンとしては

ぶっぱ牽制がヒット>ゲージ吐いて画面端からの起き攻め勝ちが一番多いです

ダウンからの切り返しがないので一度ダウンをとったらチマチマ起き攻め、勝ち続けるこ

とが大事

当たり前のことをいってますが。。。

長くなりましたが、いままでのを纏めますと

「軽く詰んでる」

Need a proper translation.

Notable Matches:

[09/22/13] Dogura vs. Valkenhayn = http://youtu.be/RRQF9e7UdSU?t=1h42m52s

[09/22/13] Dogura vs. Valkenhayn = http://youtu.be/RRQF9e7UdSU?t=1h25m41s

[09/22/13] Uma No Hone (Valkenhayn) VS Dogura (Azrael) = http://youtu.be/OTwk654qQ3s?t=24m16s

[09/22/13] Uma No Hone (Valkenhayn) VS Tahichi (Azrael) = http://youtu.be/9Lo1sUW5l8o?t=3m17s

[09/21/13] Tahichi (AZ) vs. Valkenhayn = http://youtu.be/HF9yHq0767s?t=1h33m50s

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I have a feeling I'm going to be posting here a lot now that I'm actually a member. Getting really into BB again, got my import, and my friend and main sparring partner is a very good Valk main. Expect some input later down the line when I get some decent sets with him.

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Have any of you guys had problems against Valk / Bullet? I'm having issues doing basically anything, buttons get CH and I block forever. I just get run over, and AAing their approaches doesn't really work because they have so many ways of faking it.

I can only comment on the valk.

You lose in movement, and while your normals arent bad by a longshot, I think valks are more convenient, especially his C button hitting in very nice places. From neutral try not to stand still and use standing B liberally even if he's not next to you (this also applies to Tao). The move is very active and quick recovering, if he tries to dash in, a lot fo the time he's gonna eat the last few frames of 5B and get counterhit. God I wish we got more off j.2C because his AA's are pretty easy to bait, but he has no reason not to spam them because our air mobility isn't very good and the punish off j.2C is non-existent. you can use 6A in the same way as 5B. Just try to control the space around you so he doesn't feel comfortable coming in. If you can leave the match at neutral it'll be easier.

Once he's on you, there really isn't an easy way to do this. His pressure has A LOT of holes for you to IB > 5A, BUT until you sit down and learn valk strings and where the best places are to go wolf>dash its gonna feel shitty. For example, try to 5A him after any of his 2Cs or 6Cs. HE DOES HAVE OPTIONS to beat this, but once he starts picking them he'll be cutting his blockstrings short. I use 3C liberally on the valks I play in strings because they're so prone to hold up/back or try to wolf out against characters that aren't known for long tight strings.

Mod Edit: Post moved.

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This matchup isn't too bad imo. Valk does have an advantage because he can for the most part just pick when he is going to engage on you since he is so much faster.

Playing against our good Valk player I started out just throwing 2C, 5B , and j.B all the time to catch him as he was trying to go in. However this strategy quickly becomes obsolete once the Valk learns to just sit patiently and whiff punish you.

What I have found that does work is to just slowly and patiently advance on him and try to force him to block you. Once he blocks you are in there. You have to stay on him when you hit him the first time since he is perfectly capable of running away and timing out your weakpoints.

One move that is significantly better in this matchup than usual is j.C . It can tag Valk when he is WAY above you due to its great hitbox. If you score a counter hit with it they are untechable all the way to the ground which allows for easy follow ups into huge damage.

w.5B wrecks your jump ins pretty hard. As stated above you can bait it with j.2C but that doesn't lead to anything. Primarily just avoid going air to ground vs wolf Valk.

5C is obviously a good poke/counter poke tool when he is using human normals. Max range Az 5C is just a little bit farther than Valk 5C.

If you find yourself opened up (happens a lot, thankfully his damage is low) you have a decent amount of options to get him off of you.

Growler isn't great put simply especially since they can just space w.5C and bait it automatically. It is still good to use it sparingly to get some breathing room if he is going too nuts though.

Backdash > 5A in the corner is a fantastic option if you get the read on the right move. Some wolf approaches get blown up by backdash.

One more thing if he does wakeup Sturm Wulf you can 6A post super flash and beat it clean for free. If you knock him into the corner you get a huge combo too.

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My thoughts on this matchup;

 

It's one of the more stranger matchups Azrael has. He has advantages over Valk that are rather unusual and disadvantages that are unusual.

 

Typically, Valk will be playing in Wolf Form. His human form has a nice 5C that generally beats ours, but otherwise, he's rather easy to approach and out-prioritize. Wolf form on the other hand has fantastic mobility and an incredible anti air. You want him in human mode as much as possible. Valk's defense is quite weak, he lacks quick normals or a DP. Because of this, you're not going to want to beat his normals, instead, you want to trade with them so he gets hit and reverts back to human form. 

 

In neutral, your two best tools are Sentinel Dump and j.2C. Sentinel Dump catches standard 6D wolf approaches and trades with Wolf Cannon, which works out heavily in your favour even if you get hit. j.2C is normally used as a way to punish whiffed anti airs. However, Wolf 5B is fairly safe even on whiff, but what is nice is that j.2C often trades with Wolf 5B, just make sure you don't do it too close to the ground. Backdash is a bit mediocre in this matchup. I wouldn't recommend using it except to get out of pressure or when he's human form. 

 

You can occasionally use Dash Gustaf. Normally, Valk, would blow it up for free with his backdash, but stuff like Dash>Dash>Gustaf can catch him if they tries to dodge it pre-emptively. If he tries to do it on reaction, then you can instead do something like Dash>Dash>JC>IAD j.2C/TK214C.

 

On your pressure, there's not to much to worry about. Stern Wolf is your typical metered reversal and thus can get blown up by 6A or crossup. His 6A guard point isn't used much but can blow up 6C on reaction for free, so refrain from using that. 

 

His pressure is about the same. You can't really be expected to block his mixup consistently, so try to get ready to IB as much as you can and be ready to Growler/5A his 6D pressure resets after blocking the first one or two mixups. If he decides to play safe after that, then you can start trying to 5C him or jump out. Wolf Brake j.A is pretty much unreactable in every sense of the word, but it's damage is pretty low now, so don't be frustrated if it hits you. 

 

On wakeup, don't roll. You'll get blown up automatically. Be very careful when using Growler. Wolf form has an option select with 5C that meaties you if you try to block but whiffs if you use growler. His damage isn't THAT high, so you can take a few gimmicky risks like wakeup 214C or quick tech 236D. He'll eventually blow them up, but you want Valkenhayn auto-piloting his oki as little as possible in order to make him cautious and thus give you more chances to escape. Don't push your luck, just let him know that stuff like wakeup 214C exists. Don't use Scud if he's in Wolf Form. Ever. Use your bursts for when you get hit and he has low wolf meter so he can't recover it by doing a human mode combo. 

 

My estimate is 5.5 in Azrael's favour.  I feel like it's even but I do play Kiba so I'm probably just salty. 

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On your pressure, there's not to much to worry about. Stern Wolf is your typical metered reversal and thus can get blown up by 6A or crossup. His 6A guard point isn't used much but can blow up 6C on reaction for free, so refrain from using that. 

 

Remember that Sturm no longer has a full animation on whiff haha. Just the initial bite will come out.

 

His pressure is about the same. You can't really be expected to block his mixup consistently, so try to get ready to IB as much as you can and be ready to Growler/5A his 6D pressure resets after blocking the first one or two mixups. If he decides to play safe after that, then you can start trying to 5C him or jump out. Wolf Brake j.A is pretty much unreactable in every sense of the word, but it's damage is pretty low now, so don't be frustrated if it hits you. 

 

It's 2.2k max from wj.A. Fortunately you can't expect a Valk to heavily rely on this because they have no way to really regain wolf meter due to the change in starter type. So if they go for the max damage of this normal twice, they are gonna have to go into human mode for other means of pressure. That or they can be prepared to further weaken their mixup by running out of wolf meter :)

 

On wakeup, don't roll. You'll get blown up automatically. Be very careful when using Growler. Wolf form has an option select with 5C that meaties you if you try to block but whiffs if you use growler. His damage isn't THAT high, so you can take a few gimmicky risks like wakeup 214C or quick tech 236D. He'll eventually blow them up, but you want Valkenhayn auto-piloting his oki as little as possible in order to make him cautious and thus give you more chances to escape. Don't push your luck, just let him know that stuff like wakeup 214C exists. Don't use Scud if he's in Wolf Form. Ever. Use your bursts for when you get hit and he has low wolf meter so he can't recover it by doing a human mode combo. 

 

I think wakeup 214C is good against w5C but most other options will allow Valk to quickly followup into another normal and you'll get hit. With regards to Scud, I'm not saying go for it, but it's really only weak to brjA since he can quickly get away. If he commits to wj.C/5C he'll most likely lose since those normals have more recovery and there's nothing he can do about it.

 

My estimate is 5.5 in Azrael's favour.  I feel like it's even but I do play Kiba so I'm probably just salty. 

 

Axis you're next.

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I didn't do anything wrong.

 

Not a lot I wanna say about this match up since I play it a lot.

 

I guess I'll go over simple stuff.

 

IB beast cannon and if he stays still or move around then take advantage of the fresh air.

 

Dumb stuff like wolf transforming of 236A/236C/double kick thing should be met with IB and great prejudice.

Choice of buttons are fun too, 5A/5B/5C/2C (the hard wall of no) and gustav are fun for killing bad bad wolf.

 

Sentinel is fine on wake up sometime but don't be predictable Valk has ways of making this not a thing to worry about.

 

If Valk plays ground game you can do simple stuff if he is looking for typical Azrael stuff. (GUSTAV)

I found drive to be ok at shutting him out, 5D/6D are swag and huge, be more wary about using 6D since its slow.

5C is good for ground stuff, he has to be at a certain range to make you pay for it.

 

Important thing: Do not be a idiot in this match up, I promise any idiocy will be met with valk shutting you out in neutral.

 

Hardest part?

 

Hmm catching Valk and making him not use 6A.

 

6A beats: 5BB/5C/6C/5D/6D

 

I suggest you keep him from thinking about it with lows.

 

Hmm anything else? Yeah saying it again, be really smart and play neutral well and you will be rewarded.

 

One more thing! growler j.C shut up its reactable do it.

 

One more thing!! Make him use lots of wolf meter!

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I don't get to do this match up a lot, I think I was fighting a dude who was subbing Valk. He kept beating me just a simple, single jump j.C, I thought 2C would be appropriate but it only is if you call him on doing it.

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