[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[StylisH]

Problem is she is so vulnerable to disrepect it's amazing. You could have a 12 frame 2A and probably still mash your way out, frame traps be damned.

[D.R.F.]

She needs better frame data. 5BB with a stronger vacuum would be nice though

[TD]

yeah tsubaki is pretty terrible in the keeping pressure aspect. it is not easy for her at all and you really have to commit to hard reads with her. it is not at all the same as having a puppet, ganging up with the entourage, attacking from stupid ranges with a staff, or even your traditional rushdown. frankly, I don't know what it is with her. you kinda have to be a psychic and a scumbag, because everything with her is so unsafe on hit block or whiff. honestly her best three things to me are her dp and its relative safety (the scumbag part *coughkuresucough*), the 50 heat knockoff td she has, and her running speed... like different cast members have this stuff and so much more. whatever im not going to be here lamenting about her because shes not my char, but she is kinda bad. if her dp was still trash she'd still be low tier, that's how I feel.

[Errol]

personally I don't think blade super is good. It's just crazy how much people suicide into it; it's really not good. (People have this tendency to try to hit tsubaki when they see it, and they whiff a move through it and get hit by the super (Which only does 1600 ish damage and at times can be awkward to confirm)

 

The startup is so long, and the block pushback from blades is so high that it doesn't really work out very well. It is best on the corner as oki, to try to get a single mixup out of it. 

 

in neutral it's very weak. tempest dahlia is much much better.

[TD]

that's why its a knockoff lol. it can't be better than the original. td the iphone 5s and blade super is... 'cat'phone. wtf is a catphone you ask?

 

exactly.

 

oh wait, a better comparison would be cse litchi's daisharin. now that's terrible.

[Myoro]

yeah tsubaki is pretty terrible in the keeping pressure aspect. it is not easy for her at all and you really have to commit to hard reads with her. it is not at all the same as having a puppet, ganging up with the entourage, attacking from stupid ranges with a staff, or even your traditional rushdown. frankly, I don't know what it is with her. you kinda have to be a psychic and a scumbag, because everything with her is so unsafe on hit block or whiff. honestly her best three things to me are her dp and its relative safety (the scumbag part *coughkuresucough*), the 50 heat knockoff td she has, and her running speed... like different cast members have this stuff and so much more. whatever im not going to be here lamenting about her because shes not my char, but she is kinda bad. if her dp was still trash she'd still be low tier, that's how I feel.

 

But if you're psychic and a scumbag, then you're already better suited to playing Haku. If that's the requirement, you might as well get payed for it.

 

Yeah,Relius spoils me with j.C 3C 5B and Ignis. Even without Ignis, once I'm in range I can keep easy pressure by putting 3C j.C and microdash in heavy rotation.  I kinda feel like without Jump cancel on 3C Solo Rel is basically gonna be Tsubaki.

[Errol]

No other projectile super like that has that kind of pushback.. TD and others specifically have no pushback.... I think if you just IB barrier it midscreen tsubaki just can't get in on you with any frame advantage. got 60f of startup you can just barrier block it.  Worse you can just jump and mix between normal block and air barrier block, tsubaki will not be able to properly space her t-rex arm sized normals to hit you. It's even worse against characters with air options.

 

Like Litchi's unlimited air options with/without the staff.

[TeeJay]

personally I don't think blade super is good. It's just crazy how much people suicide into it; it's really not good. (People have this tendency to try to hit tsubaki when they see it, and they whiff a move through it and get hit by the super (Which only does 1600 ish damage and at times can be awkward to confirm)

 

The startup is so long, and the block pushback from blades is so high that it doesn't really work out very well. It is best on the corner as oki, to try to get a single mixup out of it. 

 

in neutral it's very weak. tempest dahlia is much much better.

Pretty much that. I get the most mileage out of a perfectly spaced blade super when anticipating someone hitting buttons. I anticipated bangs grab super once and beat it clean. At full screen, it's not too great on the opponent's block unless you wanna bait a DP. People will attack you out of it. The startup has screwed up my dash timing at times because I anticipate being able to move earlier. 

 

Shoutouts to D Orb D Charge blowing up Tempest Dahlia. 

 

I do enjoy playing Tsubaki more than Litchi in this version. I'm not a serious competitive person though I'm stubbornly competitive. It feels good to get a counter-hit or something going. 

 

Sooooooooo......How long until the next Loketest? Isn't there suppose to be several. I guess I thought I was going to see a bunch a week apart. 

[StylisH]

Pretty much that. I get the most mileage out of a perfectly spaced blade super when anticipating someone hitting buttons. I anticipated bangs grab super once and beat it clean. At full screen, it's not too great on the opponent's block unless you wanna bait a DP. People will attack you out of it. The startup has screwed up my dash timing at times because I anticipate being able to move earlier. 

 

Shoutouts to D Orb D Charge blowing up Tempest Dahlia. 

 

I do enjoy playing Tsubaki more than Litchi in this version. I'm not a serious competitive person though I'm stubbornly competitive. It feels good to get a counter-hit or something going. 

 

Sooooooooo......How long until the next Loketest? Isn't there suppose to be several. I guess I thought I was going to see a bunch a week apart.

One less Litchi is alright with me, my friend

[chzchan]

yeah tsubaki is pretty terrible in the keeping pressure aspect. it is not easy for her at all and you really have to commit to hard reads with her. it is not at all the same as having a puppet, ganging up with the entourage, attacking from stupid ranges with a staff, or even your traditional rushdown. frankly, I don't know what it is with her. you kinda have to be a psychic and a scumbag, because everything with her is so unsafe on hit block or whiff. honestly her best three things to me are her dp and its relative safety (the scumbag part *coughkuresucough*), the 50 heat knockoff td she has, and her running speed... like different cast members have this stuff and so much more. whatever im not going to be here lamenting about her because shes not my char, but she is kinda bad. if her dp was still trash she'd still be low tier, that's how I feel.

 

Her DP is way better than it was throughout CS, but I would not consider it good at all if you look at the spectrum of meterless reversals. I am glad that she at least has one, though.

[Airk]

Tsubaki also has a command grab this time around. That'll get you through a Barrier pretty fast. Once they learn to fear that they'll usually respond in mash or chicken block, both of which can be exploited to torture the enemy if you know your frame traps and your blockstrings against chicken blocking opponents.

 

It doesn't work that way, because the command grab has less range than anything else she has except normal throw.  Barrier basically beats it because it's so hard for her to get close enough to use it unless the opponent is pretty much literally doing nothing.  There's a reason you usually only see it getting landed on gimmicky tech punishes or meaties.  And even if you land it, so what? ooooh, 960 damage, so scary.

[TD]

Her DP is way better than it was throughout CS, but I would not consider it good at all if you look at the spectrum of meterless reversals. I am glad that she at least has one, though.

Most dps except kokonoe of course....ugh... are unsafe without heat. Not taking heat into account, Tsubaki has the option of using charges to whiff cancel her DP. After the initial dp she has three options, either j236d, j236d 214d, or just j214d to fall fast. It is something resembling of a mixup. Having a meter less second mixup off a DP is a good thing. It may not be the best option but a mixup is a mixup. It may cost her charges but it's not like they make her superman anyway.

This and the general buff to her DP makes it good IMO if not decent. With charge, her dp is probably the most used on wakeup, next to kokonoe, Ragna and terumi. (Ok, this list is subjective, but tsu still has a highly used dp.)

[Myoro]

It doesn't work that way, because the command grab has less range than anything else she has except normal throw.  Barrier basically beats it because it's so hard for her to get close enough to use it unless the opponent is pretty much literally doing nothing.  There's a reason you usually only see it getting landed on gimmicky tech punishes or meaties.  And even if you land it, so what? ooooh, 960 damage, so scary.

 

There's tech out there that extends its reach I believe. 960 damage and 2 stocks and oki is nothing to sneeze, at especially off an unblockable.

[Errol]

command grab cannot be used that much.

 

command grabs are strong when either side of the mixup has good reward.

 

the command grab reward is rather low - it's hard to inspire fear with the command grab.

 

tsubaki is pretty weak against backdashing and upbacking and mashing and barriering, so it's hard to make people scared to use the things that beat the command grab.

 

Hell of a lot of risk using command grab. Hard reads.

[chzchan]

Most dps except kokonoe of course....ugh... are unsafe without heat. Not taking heat into account, Tsubaki has the option of using charges to whiff cancel her DP. After the initial dp she has three options, either j236d, j236d 214d, or just j214d to fall fast. It is something resembling of a mixup. Having a meter less second mixup off a DP is a good thing. It may not be the best option but a mixup is a mixup. It may cost her charges but it's not like they make her superman anyway.

This and the general buff to her DP makes it good IMO if not decent. With charge, her dp is probably the most used on wakeup, next to kokonoe, Ragna and terumi. (Ok, this list is subjective, but tsu still has a highly used dp.)

 

I use it scarcely because following up into j.236D leads to them just dashing under me to score a CH while following up into j.214D just delays the inevitable because blocking j.214D still leads to a punish due to the ridiculous amount of landing recovery it has. Both of these options also use up a charge. One thing to take note of that many people do not know is that you cannot late chain the followup on whiff or block, so if you don't do the inputs immediately they won't happen. Her DP has a whopping 64 frames of recovery and is -21 on block, so all someone needs to do is wait when you see her DP in neutral or if the DP is blocked because a punish is inevitable.

 

Just like every single one of Tsubaki's tools, strategies, and gimmicks, they only work on people who don't know the matchup. Once they are used, you really cannot use them a second time and hope that they will work again. If someone is well versed in the matchup, you are really really screwed unless you can read minds.

[Myoro]

command grab cannot be used that much.

 

command grabs are strong when either side of the mixup has good reward.

 

the command grab reward is rather low - it's hard to inspire fear with the command grab.

 

tsubaki is pretty weak against backdashing and upbacking and mashing and barriering, so it's hard to make people scared to use the things that beat the command grab.

 

Hell of a lot of risk using command grab. Hard reads.

 

I'm not sayin that using it is gonna make the character go up to A tier. All I'm saying is if the opponent's just downbacking barrier yolo command grab can work. Hard reads mean that you have to know what the opponent's gonna do, but turned around that just means if you know exactly what the opponent is going to do go for it. If you know that they're gonna mash, backdash, chicken block, or what have you, then find a way to give em' hell for doing that too. Ya know, if you can.

[Stellarcircle5]

In regards to Tsubakis command grab, I think the whole "reward" aspect of it is being seen in a different way than what Im used to. I'll explain.

Tsubakis command grab nets you 2 stocks, some damage, and a knockdown. The damage may be low, but there is one thing that sticks out that I think is being missed, and that is the fact the people REALLY hate getting hit, regardless of what it is. Now I'm about to make a comparison the will make some people shit the bed, but I see it in a similar light to Valkenhayn's wolf brake j.A. Now before you all crucify me, let me explain. Valks brj.A got a significant nerf in regards to reward. You can get 2K off of it tops regardless of screen position. It has found a new use however, and that is using it as a threat rather than an actual mixup for damage. Valks pressure by itself is often short and requires resources to extend. It is also pretty susceptible to barrier. Sound familiar yet? Wolf brake j.A is thrown into his short strings as assurance that people will get hit. If people keep getting hit, they disrespect less. This mind game somewhat compensates for his often risky pressure (shit has more holes than a brick of Swiss cheese). Now I'm not gonna go and say Tsubaki command grab is on par with brj.A because I would be a massive idiot if I did. All I'm saying is that if you lack the tools to prolong pressure, hit them with unblockable shit until you dont need to anymore. Keep in mind this is purely subjective and I might be heinously wrong, as I frequently am.

I shall now wait for the fires of hell to rain upon me.

[Zouf]

Your logic is right, but the fact we can't throw the command grab during our pressure (unlike Valken brj.A) really isn't the same.

 

The threat level, as well as the annoyance level, isn't the same at all.

 

Anyone who knows a little about Tsubaki's matchup will mash as soon as we try the command grab, unless it's on meaty, because the only way to do it is by dashing to get close enough. And since all her moves cancel D are minus, there is no reason to not mash when seeing it.

 

edit : this thread became Tsubaki vs The World for whatever reason lol

[chzchan]

There is barely a reason to not mash against Tsubaki if you know her strings and where she can frame trap. Mashing smartly is the bane of my existence.

[NecroTheReaper]

Honestly, in and of itself, her command grab isn't that bad. Its faster than most other command grabs in the game and its a lot quicker to recover than other command grabs. Its her toolset not being build to allow it to be readily useful more than anything. Give her some more forward momentum, a few longer ranged moves that are + on block to make her threatening. She's proven she can be good before, its judt up to the devs to say "hey guys, lets buff Tsubaki" before he gets thrown into the dumps next to the guy who wanted to buff Makoto.

[chzchan]

Her command grab would be amazing if 2 charges actually meant something. If having charges made Tsubaki scary then her command grab would be fine as is because it isn't the easiest thing to get in with how she is structured.

[TeeJay]

Disclaimer: I'm not on Errol's, Kiba's, Quitewraith's (Ark), FrostMonarch, or AzureFlameGod's levels so I'm lightheartedly giving an impression rather than debate/discussion or complaint. I like the challenge with her but I'm kind've mediocre relatively. I saw Ark do some filthy stuff in matches.  

 

If I consistently land Tsubaki command grabs in a match, I know that I'm in my opponents head and I'm in control. For me personally, i have to settle into my pressure and it means I've pinned them down. There are plenty of times where I know I'm not using it at all and I'm overwhelmed. I think she gets almost 2 stocks but not quite. Command grab to me is a measure of "yeah, I'm in a good place; I'm in there."

 

But as Zouf said, Tusbaki command grabs (for me at least) are after some charge cancel dash or 2B which has about the same risk as her normal pressure resets.

 

Tusbaki is just tricky to stay in. You can 5BB and be out of range already sometimes. I'd actually say she feels like Robo Ky without air/ground missiles or a safe horsie (236X on block= death). Every string after 5B that's normal in pressure has less than 2B ranges for most characters. 5B at max range means reset. Imagine if Jin's 5C, 2C and 6C had the range of 2B. 

 

Maybe something like a 5BB suction like Jin's or something else could help. Overall, I think she's making me a better player slowly. i know what I need to work on. Nothing scares me using other characters now. I do enjoy playing her so....

 

I'm just curious to see what happens to her. I'm probably sticking with her. I have a minimalist style, so I'm going to implore that rather than trying to be someone else. 

 

 

Honestly, in and of itself, her command grab isn't that bad. Its faster than most other command grabs in the game and its a lot quicker to recover than other command grabs. Its her toolset not being build to allow it to be readily useful more than anything. Give her some more forward momentum, a few longer ranged moves that are + on block to make her threatening. She's proven she can be good before, its judt up to the devs to say "hey guys, lets buff Tsubaki" before he gets thrown into the dumps next to the guy who wanted to buff Makoto.

i guess I agree. Normals really, or better charge advantage. And maybe a legit crossup. 

[Monarch]

Her command grab would be amazing if 2 charges actually meant something. If having charges made Tsubaki scary then her command grab would be fine as is because it isn't the easiest thing to get in with how she is structured.

Charges are pretty scary, how else would we get our damage? I mean, I've had a lot of success with the command grab. Luckily not a lot of people are familiar with Tsubaki so stuff like 5A > command grab works without fear. When they do wise up, just stick to frame trapping. I mean so long as you aren't doing the same tired thing over and over I don't see the problem.

[TheHitmarkersPro]

I wish people played Izayoi so we could see her changes. Kind of frustrating, because I'm trying to learn her but if something's getting removed/altered, i'd like to know so I don't get used to it >.>

[chzchan]

Charges are pretty scary, how else would we get our damage? I mean, I've had a lot of success with the command grab. Luckily not a lot of people are familiar with Tsubaki so stuff like 5A > command grab works without fear. When they do wise up, just stick to frame trapping. I mean so long as you aren't doing the same tired thing over and over I don't see the problem.

 

You mean the damage that every other character gets normally that we only get off of a few specific confirms in the corner? I want there to be a reason for my opponent to pay attention to the install gauge. The only people who actually care about me charging or look into my head based on the resources I have available are other Tsubakis.

 

 

I wish people played Izayoi so we could see her changes. Kind of frustrating, because I'm trying to learn her but if something's getting removed/altered, i'd like to know so I don't get used to it >.>

 

From what I have looked into, her biggest changes are that her Slaver Trans-Am super can be used even with 1 dingle and probably has its timer based on how many dingles were used, her 623C is now a DP, and she can cancel her Strike Fall D air followup into her Astraea 6D ground followup. Apparently her combo paths have been changed as well.