[CP] Valkenhayn vs Azrael

[Kiba]

Discuss the Azrael matchup here!

[Stellarcircle5]

Have you ever had someone tell you "Valkenhayn can just press buttons and get away with it!"? I believe that there is some truth to that statement. We have super safe pressure and great normals to supplement the hellish vortex we cast our opponents into.

We used to be able to press buttons. Not anymore. Someone new has arrived, and he does it better.

Enter Azreal. He has come packing an arsenal of godlike normals, scary pressure, and amazing footsies. Also, he does not give a flying f**k about what you want to do.

Neutral:
This is a neutral game unlike any of the matchups Valk has to face, simply because one slip up can mean Azreal gets to play his game. Azreal will be making use of his dashes to move around, while poking with 5C and harassing you with Gustaf, to which you should respond with w.5C, w.5A, h.5B and h.5C. In most cases I would reccomend going for an aerial approach as usual, but this guy is packing some ridiculous anti airs in the form of 5A, 5B, 2C, and 6B (Most of his shit can be an anti air) so you have to make sure you wolf movement is as unpredictable as possible. Try to fish for counter hits with Beast Cannon. If you find yourself facing Azreal on the ground and he has meter, DO NOT run around in wolf form! I cannot stress this enough, his Black Hawk Stinger super comes out in 3 frames, meaning he will snipe your ass from full screen on reaction to you wolfing around. I would also like to make something very clear, if you have both high and low weak points on you and Azreal has meter, the ground is a deathtrap. No matter what you do in this situation, Blackhawk is unblockable and you can bet your ass he will be waiting to punish you for landing. Despite all this BS you will have the mobility advantage, use it.

Defence:
Azreal can get all up in your face pretty quickly, so here is what to look out for if you are forced to block. One thing to be noted is that Azreal himself is like a giant walking corner. If he gets his pressure going on you, you will have a very hard time escaping. Up close Azreal will be using his quicker, safer normals such as 5A, 5B, and 2C. His goal is to either go high/low with 6D or 3D to apply his weak points. This kicker here is that it does not end at a 50/50 going high or low. Azreal's mixup is essentially four way. He can go high or low on one side, OR dash through you for a high/low mixup on the other side. I don't like those odds. Now I'll cover how to deal with pressure. Azreal's normals are ridiculous. You cannot mash out. You cannot jump out. He will just keep going until you get hit. My reccomended actions are to call out and 5A his 6D or 3D as they seem to be some of his only normals that can be stuffed during pressure. Counter Assault is a godsend in these situations. Sturm is a bad idea in these situations as he can 6A and beat it on reaction to the super flash. Be on the lookout for IAD cross ups off of his 5A and 5B. You can block and punish these accordingly. Tldr: don't get hit.

Offense:
If you manage to get in on Azreal, this is where things get a lot simpler. You are essentially looking to do to Azreal what he would do to you. Not allowing him to play the game. Vortex into death and all that. What you need to be aware of is IB 2A on you wolf pressure, and be ready to bait his Growler Field DP. Other than that, Azreal crumbles under Valk's pressure in the same way Valk crumbles under Azreal's pressure.

Yeah, it presents a tough set of situations for you to overcome. Whoever gets pressure first will likely win, but if you play it smart and get that knockdown, the burly bastard will be sent packing. In my opinion, the matchup is 5.5-4.5 in Valk's favor.

[Stellarcircle5]

Let me know of any changes need to be made. Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to bump the thread.

[Magaki]

Sorry for not replying earlier. Here are a few things I would like to clarify.

Neutral:

-An Azrael trying to play footsies by using moves like 5C, 3C, 2C or other kind of pokes is an Azrael assuming the fact he will get owned by a lot of recovery. If you see him whiffing one of those moves, it's a free ticket for a 6D>wjA punish.

-Azrael's vertical range isn't that great compared to other anti-airs. Cross-ups works wonders against him too. Using tactics like wj236A>(X)D isn't a bad idea.

-When Azrael usually have 50 meter to do BHS if you have 2 weakpoints, you can only jump barrier it to block it. If he does 5C>BHS, you can CA him during the superflash.

Defense:

-Learn his framedata. 5A is +1, 5BB is +5, 6C is +2 and 2A is +2. Gustav is +1 and 623C is +12 (the latter lose to mash 5A and is easy to react to. The guardpoint starts really early so you have nothing to fear.)

-Gustav is used to get in if he's too far for a proper pressure. Most of the time, he will be too far for 5A so he will go for 5B. You can poke him out of it with 2A or just backdash. IBing Gustav is however the best choice.

-He got no way to safely use 6D or 3D. Poke him out of it with 2A on reaction and punish him.

-2C on block is bad. His only choices afterwards are 3C, 6D and 3D. Keep blocking and react to the 6D and 3D. If you block 3C, he's massively in disadvantage. If you notice 6D or 3D, mash 2A.

-5BB>5D is a common gatling. Expect it. He can also go for 2D but it will be a link. You can do something simple like blocking high then low if you don't block anything. Of course, if he decides to go for 6D or 3D, mash 2A once more.

-All his drives are bad on block. Don't let him reset pressure !

-Go in training and look closely at his particular animation when he dashes forward. Poking him out of it might not be a great idea because he can cancel his dash with a jump and hit you by doing something like 662147C.

If he does that though, he's in disadvantage.

-The first two parts of his rekkas (236C>46C>6C) can be cancelled with Valiant (overhead) and Hornet(low). Both are massively bad on block.

Offense:

-Azrael's only ways out are his DP and his backdash. His DP gets owned by w5C quite easily. It's actually the easiest DP to deal with. His backdash got a lot of recovery. Against backdash happy Azrael's midscreens you can do something like w5A>w5C. If the w5A whiffs, he will get hit by the w5C. Obviously, it loses to his DP unless you're like me and worked on your okizeme.

In that case: Growler's startup is 11 frames. w5A's recovery is 7. If you tried to meaty him with the last active frames, you will recover before you get hit by Growler making him whiff it with the right spacing.

-Tao, Hazama and Valk makes Azrael hates his own Growler. On HIT (not counter), you can tech and press jD>6D to PUNISH HIM ON HIT. Which is really hilarious. It's one of the reason why Azraels typically don't DP against those 3 characters.

That's mostly because Growler got 47 raw recovery (If he hits you on the first active frame it's 53) for only 17 frames of hitstun on hit. More than enough to punish him with character possessing a good air mobility.

-BHS isn't a reversal. It's the case for Scud. Anyway, recognize the startup and remember to press 7D against BHS and 4D against Scud !

Don't have anything else to add. Azrael is pretty much dog food if you know how to deal with him.

[Stellarcircle5]

Aaaand now my guide seems useless in comparison. Thanks for being so gdlk, Magaki.

In all seriousness though, it's good to have multiple writeups I feel. Azreal is one of those characters that will make your life hell if you aren't aware of the holes in his gameplan. So this should be good for any newer players at least.

[Magaki]

Not really. You pretty much said everything Valk had to do however it lacked some datas. Considering that I sub(ed) Azrael, I just added what I knew.

Only way for Azrael to win is if the Valkenhayn he's facing is screwing up so the matchup is even worse for Azrael than you might think.

[Kyosuke_]

on his wakeup, a max ranged w5a will whiff on his dp and you can punish accordingly with w5C (same with backdash). Also, the w5A recovers in time for you to jump and avoid a wakeup scud punishment (double weak point super). The reason why you don't autopilot w5a>w5c all the time is that azrael's sentinel dump will armor the w5A and hop right over the sweep. Once that hits you it's pretty much game over. There IS an option select that can beat that as well, but it loses to the opponent just blocking (w5A>plink w5B>w5C). How the OS works is that if the w5a whiffs, the w5c will come out (not the w5B) and if the w5a is armored, the w5B will come out to beat the sentinel dump. The obvious weakness to this OS is just blocking or getting hit by w5a as the following w5b will miss. However, this can be a real OS when done at a close range, but then it'll lose to his DP (nothing else though). The trick is to mix up these OS's to keep the azrael guessing. The best case scenario would be if the azrael doesn't know that wakeup sentinel dump is a thing against valk. If that's the case, abuse the max ranged w5a>w5c meaty OS on their wakeup and there's nothing they can do about it. Stuff to help you place yourself in this max range includes J214B>J.b>j.b>j.c and the neutral jump j.b>j.b>j.c ender. Also, if you use the first combo route I mentioned, you can use wolf brake J.a safely as it'll whiff on his DP. Keep in mind it'll still get armored by sentinel dump and straight out lose to wakeup scud punishment. This little guide should make you immune to any scrubby/average azraels. The guessing game is still very much in our favor even if he know's of the wakeup sentinel dump. I recommend staying in the air a lot for footsies and such as he has no significant presence in the air. Also w5a and w5C destroy a mid ranged/fullscreen buster (beware of using second option as he can whiff punish that). Lastly, his DP is quite an unsafe move on hit. While we can't consistently punish it (immediate forward tech>air dash J.c is very hard to implement properly as it must be done as soon as possible. In other words, unless you absolutely knew he was going to DP at that exact time, you most likely won't get it), we can get him to block stuff (this is all assuming the DP didn't counter hit us). Forward tech>air dash JD>wJa wJa wJa definitely works. It's recommended that you don't use this method immediately however as azrael can 2C the air dash on reaction. However, he can only react to the air dash easily, meaning that we can w7 the 2C and punish it clean, scaring him to use it in that scenario again. If you end up using w7 and he doesn't 2C, wolf brake it and air dash away to safety. Keep in mind that valk's hitbox is quite weird for azrael's combos. For example, after he hits his rekka series in the corner, unless he walks back a little bit afterwards, he will hit you out of the corner to your safety. 6A can be a good tool if used sparingly as it beats his 6C and 5D pretty clean (remember to use it sparingly as I stated earlier). Instant barrier + up backing is your best friend here. Our backdash is great too but it can't always be used. Few other notes, his 6D and 3D both have visual cues which differentiate themselves from each other. 3D make's azrael's foot start at the middle of his body while 6D starts at the top. Also 6D has purple light flashing at the top for a bit. Keep in mind you need to be precise to mash after this move properly. All azraels will hit buttons after a blocked 6D/3D as most don't know how to properly mash afterwards. The move is minus 2 and his 5A is 6 frames. Normally, both 2A and 5A would work, but use 5A as it's a faster normal. Oh and the w5A>w5C os works mid screen against his backdash but it loses to his DP. If you feel confident that he'll backdash, chase him down and w5B him! Keep in mind that both of these maneuvers will not make his DP counter hit you, so you're free to use the DP guessing game that I stated earlier in the summary. It's in our favor by a lot tbh. But he's still azrael so never let your guard down. The worst thing you can do is not respect his pressure with careless up backs and back dashes as that'll net him free hits and will make your life a lot harder than it should be. His mixup is more reactable and avoidable than most would think (still hard though lol). Hope this helped!

[Verimeloni]

This MU is pretty much covered but there's a couple things I'd like to elaborate on.

If you block 3C, he's massively in disadvantage.

-5BB>5D is a common gatling. Expect it.

3C's "punishability" is related to the distance between characters. In wiki the recovery is for point-blank use, which you won't see (for distance like let's say Gustaf > RC > 3C on normal block the frame advantage is maybe ~ -3-4 for him). If they do use it up-close they can RC it to j.A, which basically gets him a "guaranteed" ~2.2k combo, ~3.1k if close to corner. Tahichi uses it occasionally and more people should.

Blocked 5BB ends more often in Gustaf or Tiger than 5D to reset pressure or in attempt of doing so.

-Tao, Hazama and Valk makes Azrael hates his own Growler. On HIT (not counter), you can tech and press jD>6D to PUNISH HIM ON HIT. Which is really hilarious. It's one of the reason why Azraels typically don't DP against those 3 characters.

Patch fixes this one, Azrael players go

[Kiba]

Also Azrael should be using Sentinel Dump in neutral. It completely beats anything we do. Timing wolf cannons can be pretty difficult, either trading or losing. If he does this you've just gotta run around, jump over him occasionally and preserve wolf meter by changing back into human while keeping distance, because you don't want to be in Gustaf range.

Sentinel dump is so good against Valk, makes the matchup harder.

[Magaki]

I think you don't realize that you're not supposed to punish this move at all if it whiffs completely because of its particularly fast recovery. Using wolf canon to do it is also a bad idea because it will always lose against moves with a good amount of active frames. And wolf canon isn't even that great against Azrael's hitboxes in the first place.

Anyway, when you see Sentinel Dump, you mustn't think "I must punish it" but rather "the opponent will be pinned down for a while which means I can freely get in". If done in neutral, you have 3 choices based on distance. If he's close enough to punish his startup (I mean come on, 39f startup !), a w5B will do the trick.
If you're a bit farther, you can either run and do w5C which will beat everything he does except backdash (yes, even another Sentinel. If w5C gets GPed, just w5B after it). And if you feel like he will backdash right after it, you can go instead for 6D>wjA/wjB

Sentinel honestly is a bad idea in this matchup because it wll never work against wolf mode. Especially if the Valk player know that whatever he does, he can always easily deal with it.

Only thing that really changed in that matchup is that Valk can't afford to bait as much as before so you won't see a 4Dfest like it was in CP1.0
Still doesn't change the fact that Azrael has to take huge risks in neutral against Valk and winning in neutral for Azrael will always require to outplay the Valk player.
Which is pretty much why the Azrael you're playing against uses Sentinel in neutral considering you didn't know how to deal with it and that's the sole reason why it worked.

If you need visual references to understand, look at this video

To sums it up, the match was: "Dogura do crazy and ultra risky stuff in neutral and Suya either punish him without even doing it on purpose or get mindfucked."
Obviously, look carefully also at what happens when you don't know how to punish what Azrael do at all. I'm certain the result would have been completely different if Suya would have known how to punish his backdash in offense or what you can punish in defense and how (And didn't drop so many combos.).

[Kiba]

Regarding the stuff about punishing: I didn't say to punish sentinel with wolf cannon, I was just saying what would happen if you use it. It has guard point from 1-10f and a lot of active frames so the chances of you succeeding is slim.

 

Granted you have those options against sentinel, but if you're further out you have to preemptively use w5C. Not to mention one has to be wary of gustaf. Suya got hit by that a couple of times because of it.