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Kiba

[CP] Valkenhayn vs Jin

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I heard that this matchup is completely in the wolfman's favor here. However, I consistently play a Jin player at my local FGC and can't quite see what makes this matchup so easy for us. His normals are big and can easily swat me out of an approach, his DP halts my mixup all the time, and he dishes out a ton of damage for little effort off of many confirms.

If anyone has info on how this matchup works for us, that would be ace.

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Could you please be more specific ? Explain the kind of strategy you use. What do you use to get in ? What do you watch out for ? Which normal give you troubles ?

The only thing I can say to help you here is that his big normals can all be easily punished with a 4D. Same for his DP who can be defeated easily with w5C. I doubt those advices really help you that much hence why we need more datas.

Jin isn't threatening at all for valk. Heck, the previous j236D he had was the only thing annoying about him but he lost it in CP.

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My main issue is finding ways of escaping his mixup. I'm not sure which normals in his pressure strings have gaps that I can possibly exploit. In the event that I'm forced on the defensive, it seems that Jin can just sort of stay in my face, which is scary considering his high damage off of most confirms. Stuff like his 2D (super safe on block), 2A, and 2B all give me trouble with escaping. People say Jin's normals are just okay, with nothing too amazing. I just don't see it.

So I ask: What pokes work best against Jin, are there gaps in his block strings I can capitalize on, and how do I deal with his mixup?

Keep in mind that the Jin that I play every week has been playing him since CT, and is incredibly skilled. Since I started with Extend, there is a definite difference in experience.

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Jin's mixup is quite weak. His only overhead options are 6A, j214D and jump-ins. He needs a RC to combo with 6A and can only gatling into it with 5A, 2A and 5B which can both be stopped with 5A.

j214D and the jump-ins will mostly likely start with a 5C which is jump cancelable but both options gets beaten by a 5A.

His 2D is +3 but the vacuum effect isn't that great. You can backdash right after he does that to avoid a 2A/2B or anything he does after that to reset pressure. He also needs to push you quite a lot to reset pressure which is not that easy unless you're barrier blocking. Just block normally and wait for him to reset pressure to escape. You can also IB his 5C/2C and chicken block to avoid any reset option he got afterwards.

Another new option quite useful he got in CP is 5B(delay)>green throw. Which can be avoided if you option select 4ABC after a 5B.

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My main issue is finding ways of escaping his mixup. I'm not sure which normals in his pressure strings have gaps that I can possibly exploit. In the event that I'm forced on the defensive, it seems that Jin can just sort of stay in my face, which is scary considering his high damage off of most confirms. Stuff like his 2D (super safe on block), 2A, and 2B all give me trouble with escaping. People say Jin's normals are just okay, with nothing too amazing. I just don't see it.

So I ask: What pokes work best against Jin, are there gaps in his block strings I can capitalize on, and how do I deal with his mixup?

Keep in mind that the Jin that I play every week has been playing him since CT, and is incredibly skilled. Since I started with Extend, there is a definite difference in experience.

Jin is usually going to reset pressure of 2B/5B. He's -6 after 5B and -3 after 2B but he can frame trap you with a delayed gatling or 2C. If you're feeling lucky, mash your way out after any of these two.

If the Jin is abusing 5C to reset pressure, an option is to do a micro dash Barrier block (66~4AB) after IB'ing 5C. If you did it correctly and he goes into the 5C > 2D gatling, he will whiff the 2D and you'll be able to punish him. If he goes into the 5C > 6B gatling, you'll just block it. If he goes into 5C JC, then you need to be able to react with an anti-air. The only flaw about doing this is that he might tag you with the 5C > 5D/2C gatlings, which don't really lead to much damage for him (unless he has 25 Heat).

5C > gatling is a common reset pressure for Jin since he has to auto-pilot 2B > 5C for a confirm and 5B leaves him at a huge frame disadvantage in this game.

Other than that, his basic mix-up is pretty weak like people have said. You just have to watch out for the TK Hizangeki off 2A/5A or after a knockdown/stagger/reset. 6A doesn't lead to damage unless her lands a CH or RCs. You should be able to react to his jump ins with an anti-air.

However, he still has unconventional reset options off his j.D or his 5B(1) in the corner and both of these lead into some nasty cross-ups/cross-unders.

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If the Jin is abusing 5C to reset pressure, an option is to do a micro dash Barrier block (66~4AB) after IB'ing 5C.

Except I swear Valk can't micro dash..

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Unconventional reset options ? Could you please tell us what those are or do you have a link listing them ?

Also, I doubt you can microdash barrier because Valkenhayn can't microdash at all. And his forward dash is way too slow anyway to really be useful for defense.

Edit: Seems that Kiba was much faster than me haha.

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Unconventional reset options a.k.a gimmicks. Can't tell you how many times I've been a victim of Jin IAD cross-up shenanigans.

Thank god for the j.236D change though.

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Unconventional reset options ? Could you please tell us what those are or do you have a link listing them ?

Off a corner 5B(1) reset attempt (on hit only), he'll pull you out of the corner with the 5B vacuum effect and squeeze over to the other side with an IAD for a cross-up.

Off a j.D reset attempt, he can just dash under you for a cross-under.

He can kinda mimic the old IAD j.236D shenanigans with IAD j.214C but he needs 50 Heat to get anything out of it.

There's also IAD j.D but that leaves him at a huge frame disadvantage, so he'll need 50 Heat to RC it if it gets blocked.

Also, lol at hop characters

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Thank god for the j.236D change though.

That thing made me rage so much. Still feels like he got really screwed with that change though. Everytime I see a Jin use it, it whiffs because of how slow it is.

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Allow me to give a small portion of advice since I play a good Jin on a regular basis (or should be playing on a regular basis)

The way Jin is going to be playing in neutral is throwing ice swords at you if you're far. They could even use Hizansen or worse ice car, but you can't blame them since you're running around in wolf form just asking to be hit. If your air approach is obvious like w[66D] in the air for example, his Fubuki (623B) will not fail to get you.

I haven't had any success poking Jin out of his overhead so don't try to mash, just try to block. Gatlings into his 6A include:
-5B > 6A
-2A > 6A
-5A > 6A (irrelevant in this matchup since his 5A will not hit us crouching *there is an exception but that's extremely minor. He could do something like j.2C > j.C > 5A and that specific 5A will hit you crouching.)

What I do usually poke out from are gaps but you need to get accustomed to blocking well first. Jin doesn't have much mixup to offer and his pressure isn't scary at all. Granted if you cannot tech throws then you're in for a real treat.

Remember guys, we have option selects we can use with w5A to bait his DPs, and remember w5C works in making his DPs whiff too.The reason being is that his DPs are quite slow in startup, so this allows for an easy bait and punish. The details of which are shown here in this video. It is definately a useful source of information which can help to make your pressure much more scary. Your opponent would be respecting you in no time, which would then allow you to worry less about his DPs.

This matchup is definitely not in Jin's favour.

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I haven't had any success poking Jin out of his overhead so don't try to mash, just try to block. Gatlings into his 6A include:

-5B > 6A

-2A > 6A

-5A > 6A (irrelevant in this matchup since his 5A will not hit us crouching *there is an exception but that's extremely minor*)

You can mash out of his 2A > 6A but not his 5B > 6A. Then again, like you said, mashing is not the best option against Jin because he can easily get 3K+ on you meterless if he catches you mashing with a frame trap.

For the 6B throw bait gimmick, just OS throw or jump.

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We will hop all over you.

I've noticed that a lot of Jin's seem to like doing 5C > Jump Cancel > j.2C. If he does this you can actually utilize the head invulnerability of 5D to score an aerial w[5B] confirm. You have to be quick about it though, and don't use 6A unless you want to get counterhit, the guardpoint isn't active till the 5th frame.

His damage is much better this time around, better than ours actually. Try not to get hit. If you jump around a lot or try escape the corner you're most likely going to keep eating his 623B.

Also, watch out for his new j.214D, leads into good damage and can be tk'd. The first hit of his 214D is also a low now, this had me confused at first.

His C DP sucks, his D DP doesn't. And If I'm not mistaken he can actually follow-up his D DP midscreen without a rapid this time around. You can of course use a well spaced w[5C] to clash with it (this wont always be an option, so you can also just 4D > j.A before the second hit of his DP comes out).

Jin is like a walking frame-trap, and we don't have a proper DP to just mash out of his pressure whenever we feel like it. Thankfully his mix-up isn't all that great. Learning when to IB certain things seems to be rather important in this match-up.

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His C DP sucks, his D DP doesn't. And If I'm not mistaken he can actually follow-up his D DP midscreen without a rapid this time around. You can of course use a well spaced w[5C] to clash with it (this wont always be an option, so you can also just 4D > j.A before the second hit of his DP comes out).

The D version is better but I still kinda think it's bad. I thought he could followup D DP midscreen with micro dash 214D?

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Copy/pasted from my notes

---

[General Thoughts]

Isn't this Jin's worst matchup? He has to do some pretty yolo shit to win. Anyway, the usual patience/solid play works, and Jin isn't scary on defense until he gets 50 meter.

 

[Round Start]

Getting away is the safest, because Jin's goal is to touch you anyways. Jin 2D catches backstep/4D at round start.

 

[Fullscreen Neutral]

Same as usual, IB full screen projectiles. If they do air swords at the wrong height, you can run under them in wolf. Valk is crazy fast - it's a free approach. All of Jin's tools are midrange (besides the usual yolo ice wave super). If you read a ground ice sword, you can try to fly over it a bunch of ways - air Konig, [j66D] > wait and see, etc.

 

[Midscreen Neutral]

Jin wants to hit you, but even catching you blocking is OK.

  • Airborne - Looking at how he moves is very important. If they like jumping around a lot, slip under them and [5B]. If they like to neutral jump or jump away, they are definitely looking for opportunities to JC - you can just wait this out. His JC beats most aerial approaches, but when he's in the air, there isn't much he can do. Some Jin's really like air Hizansen. There is 7F of landing, so you can try to backdash out of range, then move in and punish. Not sure if this hits behind (probably doesn't). Anyway, if he's near you and airborne, depending on height either walk under him or backdash, and react accordingly. Air to air isn't recommended that much.
  • Ground - 5C is his best poke, but he'll use 5D, 2D, and even ice car to try to hit wolf. 2C is his anti air. Stuff like Eisen or 7D will bait 2C. If they are using B DP for anti air, 7D is fine. Again, wolf backstep is amazing and goes a long way in keeping you safe while Jin whiffs moves in your face.

[Jin's Back to the Corner]

The moment he whiffs a move, get in there. He doesn't have much air to ground besides Hizansen and j236D. If you try to [5B] and he does j236D, you can 4D to evade the ice sword.

 

[Valkenhayn's Back to the Corner]

REALLY bad situation, but the usual answers apply. If Jin is really high above you, use Jaeger, and if you have a chance to jump out, use Moonlight. Patience is key.

 

[Jin's Pressure]

His goal, more or less. Anyway, even though it would seem like IB really messes up his offense, the risk/return is definitely not in Valkenhayn's favor (to mash). The usual safe escapes - jump, backstep, barrier IB, or CH CA is the best way to get out. A perfect game would be to not get caught blocking at all.

 

  • 2A - Gatlings into 6A (mashable). It's notable that this move is jump cancellable, and used this way it can really strengthen his offense, since you're generally looking for throw/overhead/frame trap of 2A.
  • 5A - Also jump cancellable, but you'll only see it after jC > j2C (if you blocked the jC).
  • 6A - Way too fast?! But Jin needs 50 meter to combo off it. It's plus on hit, so again, it opens more frame traps. Plus, it feels like strong Jin's can confirm hit/block on RC and then mix up AGAIN, which is really difficult (impossible?) to see.
  • 5B - 2 hit vacuum, -6, cancellable into throw, and can be used to beat TRM. Dangerous. Also, even though it was nerfed, it still beats Valk's backstep.... the good thing is 2B will beat this move 100%.
  • 5C - Jump cancellable. Look for the jump cancel after this move. You can 2C AA into whatever.
  • 2C - Jump cancellable. Usually a frame trap normal.
  • J2C - Massive air normal, that once you block, leads to mixup. J2C > JC/2B/Throw. All 3 options are pretty easy for him to confirm. J2C > 2B isn't technically a string, however.
  • Hizangeki - not actually fast! 8F start up, but the first hit whiffs on crouchers. Fastest Hizangeki that can actually hit someone should be 26F? (4F jump + 8f start up (whiffs) > 2nd hit hits on 22nd F?) Once you get used to the animation, it's pretty easy to react to. However, after any airborne moves, it's 22F, so it's harder to defend against. Usually you see it after 6B, or after j2C (they'll cancel into Hizangeki right before they touch the ground).
  • Throw - Jin has a good throw game. 6B return is massive (as usual), so OS late techs are the safest. Again, OS tech window being reduced hurts, so backstep and jumping are just as good.
  • J236D - Has a vacuum effect, enabling corner crossups.

[Valkenhayn's Pressure]

Valkenhayn shits on Jin until Jin gets 50 meter (thus getting access to Yukikaze).

  • [5B] - as usual, go into br[JA] or [5C]. Delay [5C] can be DP'd.
  • [5C] - For double sweep, use 1 or 2 dash so that C DP can whiff. D DP will always hit. If [5C] is IB'd and you do [6D > jA], he can 5A and CH you. This loses to double sweep. Use [5C > RC > 5C] for double low with no gap.
  • [5C > 6D] - If Jin has less than 25 meter - [5C > 6D > jA > 44 5C] for low and [5C > 6D > jA 44 jC] for high. You can't get a delayed [JC] but this beats C DP clean.
  • [5C > 6D] Part 2 - If Jin has 25 meter - [5C > 6D > jA~JB 4D > 5C] for low and [5C > 6D > jA~C~4D] for high. Again, you can't get a delayed [C] but this beats D DP.
  • 2C - most reliable normal for instant overhead/low - rising jC or 3C.

[setplay]

 

  • 3C > 236B ender - If Jin has less than 25 meter, use [5A > 44 5B] to chase roll, no tech and beat C DP. Any whiffed [5A] will give you backstep. If 6B comes out, your [5A] will whiff and you can backstep and punish. Also, br[JA 44] should OS C DP as well? Need to test.
  • 3C > 236B Part 2 - 25 meter - [5A > 44 5C] is possible, but really hard(???). Anyway, backstep will make the first hit of D DP whiff. Punish with [5C].
  • 3C > 236B Part 3 - 50+ meter. Select between A and B - also you can stand in their face and IAD back and react accordingly. Even if Jin jumps, it's not like he's going anywhere.
  • 6C > 66(out of corner) > 236B[D] > [jB > J4C+DD] - more of a trick than anything else, but it's a double overhead that option selects his C and D DP. And of course, JB (or JC) starter leads to good damage.

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Holy shit, thanks LK! This is really good stuff!

I end up getting spooked by Jin all the time, so I can't thank you enough for this! Gonna go grind some punishes!

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