[CP] Valkenhayn vs Ragna

[Kiba]

Discuss the Ragna matchup here!

[Stellarcircle5]

So I got some matches in with the local Ragna tonight. Will update to a legit match guide at some point. Until then, I leave you all with this:

- 5B > your mixup

[Magaki]

Ragna's 5B can be annoying in footsies or can be used to beat 4D. Works well against 7D by doing micro dash 5B.

However, there is no way it can beat Valk's mixups. Usually, Valk's mixup barely have a gap big enough to allow the opponent to land a 5A. Even if his 5B is quite fast, it still means that he needs an 8 frame gap to be able to land it.

What did you use to allow him to land it ? Also, don't forget that his counter assault is the same animation as his 5B. Would explain why you thought that way.

[Stellarcircle5]

It was mostly a joke, Magaki. My grasp on humor is so pathetic that I stooped to using a Ragna 5B joke, because those totally haven't been around since CT :P

But to stay on topic, Ranga can IB 5B so much of your pressure its ridiculous. Same goes for ID, but I'm just totally free to DPs.

[Magaki]

Ohh alright. Anyway if you need some help/inspiration, here's a guide that I wrote about Ragna in extend. The matchup should roughly be the same in CP except that it's much easier for Valk now.

Good luck and thanks for writing some matchup guides, the section is quite empty but I guess that's because we all started playing quite recently haha.

[Stellarcircle5]

Hehe, truth be told I only started writing them because no one else would. It's the reason I made a DL account. Everywhere else I asked, I would just get people saying "lol Valk has no bad matchups!" So I took it upon myself to whether the storm and do it myself. Thanks for the guide by the way, the CP matchup feels VERY similar to the Extend matchup, so your guide should help a bunch!

[KaiserCX]

Just thought I'd add something regarding his 214D and TK version of it, though you guys probably already know. If you don't feel comfortable doing J.A to punish it, you can punish it by just going into wolf and using the invincibility frames and punish with w5C and if you're not comfortable doing that, you can simply just forward dash under him and punish with 236C if you reacted fast enough, or even go into wolf form and w5C if you're close enough.

[Magaki]

Whether it is midscreen, in the corner or used as a cross-up tool, jump>air throw always beat it clean and the following combo allows you to corner carry/back to corner with no troubles at all. I think that it's a much easier and stronger option.

Are you certain however that 5D makes blood scythe whiff ? It's not an overhead even if it looks like one.

[KaiserCX]

I tested it in training off of standard block string of 5B > 5C > 214D and 5B > tk.214D at 5B range. I get the wave effect indicating the attack wiffed when I go into wolf form.

[Magaki]

Interesting . . . I know which move I'm gonna experiment next in training mode now !

[KaiserCX]

Okay I was mistaken on w5C punish for 214D, just go for w5B if you're going the 5D route to make it wiff and the only way you're getting 236C to land if you go the dash route is if you yomi and dash early, so I really don't recommend that. Also as I'm sure you know you can 5D through 214B as well, but you've really gotta be on point to do it or the Ragna has to have really poor mix-up.

[Stellarcircle5]

Hey guys, I'm back yet again for even more matchup questions. Simply put, I find the Ragna matchup to be one of if not THE hardest matchup in the game for me. With the wolf gauge nerf it seems that he literally gets to dictate the flow of the match if I ever try to go on the offensive. Here are some problems in particular I have:

- At round start, all of Valkenhayn's options lose other than "run the hell away".

- The Ragna I play is ridiculously smart when it comes to my bait/punish attempts. The only thing I seem to be able to punish in neutral is whiffed Inferno Divider. How unfortunate that he knows this and never uses it. Everything else recovers too fast it seems. If there are any ways you guys are able to coax out unsafe moves from him without being too obvious about it, let me know please.

- I know that Valk's 2B low profiles Ragna's 5B. This is HUGE, but like before he knows this and uses 5C to make me eat shit instead.

- Ragna has no qualms about running at you from full screen. When this happens I start to panic. Any button I press seems to lose and wolf moves get stuffed as well.

- His pressure and mixup, while basic, is incredibly stress inducing. He is literally able to stay in my face until he decides to use Gauntlet Hades. This seems to be only way out if he has you in the corner (without system mechanics that is).

- In the event that I do knock him down, running oki on Ragna feels super risky. Even the most carefully spaced w.5C on his wake up fails me most of the time.

- His air normals are MASSIVE. All my anti airs seem to trade at best and air to airs seem unreliable. I don't usually use w.jA as an air to air anymore because you can't get anything good out of it. Should I be using it more to discourage Ragna from airdashing at me?

- I won't even get into this in detail, but having to turtle for wolf meter almost always spells game over for me. Every time. I might even say that I may be playing this matchup a bit too passively, but I'm not sure where it's safe to go in.

I found this matchup was super difficult in Extend, but Rags was absurd in that version, unfortunately it dosnt feel all that different in CP. His buttons are just too fucking good. Any tips would be appreciated, overcoming this matchup would make me feel so much more confident as a player.

[Magaki]

Same matchup as in Extend. Nothing changed. Read everything said here carefully.

 

 

 

At round start, all of Valkenhayn's options lose other than "run the hell away".

High jump>jD>7D>jD>jC. IAD backward>jD>wj236A. backdash>5C wolf cancel if it whiffs. Etc.
You got plenty of ways to laugh at a Ragna trying to be aggressive and make him regret it.
Plus there is nothing wrong with running away in that matchup. In neutral, you can do whatever the hell you want movement-wise and Ragna doesn't have any surefire way to get in against Valk. Putting some distance is something that is a nice advantage for Valk. Not for Ragna.

 

 

 

The Ragna I play is ridiculously smart when it comes to my bait/punish attempts. The only thing I seem to be able to punish in neutral is whiffed Inferno Divider. How unfortunate that he knows this and never uses it. Everything else recovers too fast it seems. If there are any ways you guys are able to coax out unsafe moves from him without being too obvious about it, let me know please.

You can punish all his whiffed specials with 6D>wjA/wjB. wolf canon works too. It's just a question of being reactive to it or not. Anything he does in neutral gets punished by 4D/7D. Abuse the hell out of that and learn combos that use minimal amount of wolf gauge for that like 4D>wjB>5D>5B>5C>236B>236B. Or combos with good corner carry.

 

 

 

- I know that Valk's 2B low profiles Ragna's 5B. This is HUGE, but like before he knows this and uses 5C to make me eat shit instead.

2B's range sucks. Consider that this move only exist in pressure or as a combo filler. If you don't like his footsies, backdash>5B/5C.

 

 

 

Ragna has no qualms about running at you from full screen. When this happens I start to panic. Any button I press seems to lose and wolf moves get stuffed as well.

Main difference between Ragna and Valk's footsies is that Ragna got 8f startup on his 5B while Valk got 10f. They have the same range. What he can technically do with footsies in neutral, you can do it too. Except that if Ragna whiffs anything, he gets punished for free. Valk can pretty much wolf cancel and be more or less safe if he does a mistake. So don't panic in a situation when you actually have the advantage.

 

 

 

His pressure and mixup, while basic, is incredibly stress inducing. He is literally able to stay in my face until he decides to use Gauntlet Hades. This seems to be only way out if he has you in the corner (without system mechanics that is).

Barrier guard and wait for him to reset pressure. Punish. He got no safe way to reset pressure without using meter. If you really have troubles dealing with him in defense, go work his blockstrings in training mode.

 

 

 

In the event that I do knock him down, running oki on Ragna feels super risky. Even the most carefully spaced w.5C on his wake up fails me most of the time. 

Then go back to the basic DP bait. 4D>wjB on oki. You also got easy safe jump with pretty much every enders except jC enders. If you want to go the easy way, do everytime a safe jump and do either jC or empty jump 2B as a 50/50.

 

 

 

His air normals are MASSIVE. All my anti airs seem to trade at best and air to airs seem unreliable. I don't usually use w.jA as an air to air anymore because you can't get anything good out of it. Should I be using it more to discourage Ragna from airdashing at me?

Valkenhayn's anti-airs aren't like every other characters. Basic anti-airs in Blazblue have head invul. Valkenhayn's anti-airs are used as such either because they are fast (5A,w5B) or because they are ridiculous if they trade (2C). If you see a jump-in, go with a fast anti-air. Otherwise trade or GTFO. 2C is ridiculous for that because if it trades, 95% of the time you will recover before the opponent does and will do a combo that starts with a 100 P1 N starter so you get full corner carry and nice damage.

wjA isn't good because "you could get something good out of it". You couldn't get your wolf gauge back unless you managed to hit someone close to the corner with it which isn't that common. Main reason why it was good and still is because of its godlike prority. It's a light with a hitbox as good as the best jBs in the game.
When you're against an opponent that loves playing Mario Bros in Blazblue, don't hesitate to use it and go for the 6-way mixup.

Dunno if we talked about it here but basically, it's a wolf mixup you can do after a wjB midscreen. You basically do wjB ender>jump cancel which will result in the opponent getting knocked down and you still high in the air. From there, you can use 1D/2D/3D to either do cross-up overhead, cross-up low, cross-up command grab or fake cross-up overhead, fake cross-up low or fake cross-up command grab.
If you do an overhead, you can do 44 with the right timing to OS any reversal.
Basically with wjA air-to-air, it's easier to set. jump>wjA>wjB>jump cancel 6-way mixup.
Or you can just safe jump jC/empty jump 2B. Keep in mind though that you can punish rolls with the 6-way. Not the safe jump.

Easy and rewarding setup.

 

 

 

I won't even get into this in detail, but having to turtle for wolf meter almost always spells game over for me. Every time. I might even say that I may be playing this matchup a bit too passively, but I'm not sure where it's safe to go in.

You already got your answer. Whether Valk is in human or wolf mode, he got no way to safely get in. If you're turtling, Ragna knows you won't be able to bait (except with backdash but it's too risky) but he also will know that he will have to guess what you will do to make him stay away.

Anyway, it's one of Valk's most straightforward matchup and the fact that Ragna relies heavily on footsies make it one of the MU where baiting stuff in neutral is the easiest. I would say it's an even matchup honestly because of how basic it is. Both characters can annoy the other in neutral. Valk got a godlike offense but Ragna's DP make it a "Will he DP or not." which makes it 50/50 anyway and Ragna's offense is basic but same goes with Valk's defense.

[Stellarcircle5]

The 6 way mixup had me drooling, that sounds amazing! Thank you so much for the tips!

[NEJI12212]

I'm starting to have some troubles in this match up in my local scene now since the Ragna player figured out Valk a bit since I cant win against him anymore by playing a character that isn't played a lot (at least not here since I'm the only Valk player). I'm just wondering how should I approach Ragna at neutral? I just feel very overwhelmed by him when I try to approach and take a combo in the face at the same time how should I deal with Ragna when he is trying to approach me.

 

The only thing I know to never do is to wolf canon at neutral EVER cause I'll always take an inferno divider.

[Stellarcircle5]

This matchup is really even, especially in this version where Ragna shits damage for no real reason. It just boils down to a battle of footsies. Try to whiff punish him by moving around the tip of his 5B's range and punish with j.2/3D > w.jA. 

If you're being punished with ID for beast cannons in neutral, use that to your advantage. A Ragna that throws out DP willy nilly is one that you can easily be baited. Hang at mid range and kill him for it with w.5C.

For oki, you need to be making the necessary reads. w.5C oki is inconsistent at circumventing wakeup DP, so your best bet is to run safe jump setups until you establish that it won't work and start br.jA-ing him.

If he has you in corner pressure, your best bet is to jump and barrier to get out when he uses Deadspike.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I won't say its a typical Valk matchup where momentum pretty much means a win, but its doable if you play solid.