[CP] Tsubaki vs Azrael

[Kiba]

Discuss the Azrael matchup here!

[Kiba]

I can say a few things.

In neutral when you're quite far from him I think it's a good idea to use j.236A orbs. It makes it much harder for Azrael to get in and it gives you breathing space to charge. His only options are to jump over the orb (and you can AA him at this point if he doesn't barrier), not do anything, or use growler to absorb the projectile. If he absorbs the projectile yeah, that's causing bigger problems for you later on, especially if you forget if he absorbed it, but you should have more than enough charge to throw about some [4]6D > 236D (ofc don't abuse). Look how easy Azrael got in against Kuno here. If Kuno had been using j.236A in neutral it would have helped him greatly.

During his pressure, if he uses 2C, his followup options are unsafe so get ready to try and mash him out of whatever does with 5A. I don't think you can mash him out of 2C > 3C however so be careful, but 5A mash will beat both his 6D and 2D followups. Sometimes after one of his knockdowns (the j.D ones in particular) he may cross you up and then pressure. Mashing 5A beats this, but of course if he doesn't crossup and you mash 5A you'll be giving him counter hits. Also he can do crossup > 236C which is extremely difficult to react to. Another thing to consider is that if he hits you with a lower weakpoint for example, don't assume he's gonna hit you with 2D/3D, he could just opt to go for the high, and then you'll have two weakpoints applied to you. You're going to have to be be very vigilant here.

[Errol]

It might be reasonable to OS his forward dash crossup. Try doing 1ABC when you expect it. you will be open to TRM though. 1AB would come out as 2b (lol no way). you could also try 421ABC.

TY for info.

[BatousaiJ]

Some stuff about the match up that I learned at NEC-

You can't meaty 5B his wake up back dash as he'll get away cleanly. Get used to approaching his back dash like you would Ara's where you have to dash into him if you anticipate a back dash on wake up and then put out a slightly delayed 5B to catch him meaty while he's recovering.

You can also 22B/D his DP at mid to max range and it won't hurt you and will simply whiff over him but you'll recover, much, much quicker than him so you can punish him with just about everything.

Keep a close eye on his attempts to cross you over for a continuation and begin pressing your A button the moment he disappears and you should be able to catch him. Just remember if he does it while he's in your face, he'll be too far away after cross up to hit with 5/2A so adjust accordingly.

Good Azarael players can simply time their forward dash invincibility to go through orbs from what I noticed so it's not as helpful as you think and they can close the distance very quickly on the ground with a variety of moves that gives him forward momentum both normal and special along with his dash.

So in that way, he feels a bit harder to zone out and get free neutral charge from compared to say, Kagura or something.

[Kiba]

You can't meaty 5B his wake up back dash as he'll get away cleanly. Get used to approaching his back dash like you would Ara's where you have to dash into him if you anticipate a back dash on wake up and then put out a slightly delayed 5B to catch him meaty while he's recovering.

But you can catch the recovery of his BD with 5BB right? Here.

Good Azarael players can simply time their forward dash invincibility to go through orbs from what I noticed so it's not as helpful as you think and they can close the distance very quickly on the ground with a variety of moves that gives him forward momentum both normal and special along with his dash.

Well, you'd have to be like, full screen away for j.236A use to be effective. If you're using it when you're closer to him or even high in the air, he won't have much trouble getting to you.

[BatousaiJ]

Catching back dashes in the corner is a piece of cake for Tsubaki with all her gatlings on whiff, I was talking specifically about midscreen.

I mentioned the orb to cover neutral because contrary to his big size, he can get around on the ground rather swiftly so I wouldn't want people overly relying on neutral charging thinking that they were safe.

[LordSpectreX]

Catching back dashes in the corner is a piece of cake for Tsubaki with all her gatlings on whiff, I was talking specifically about midscreen.

I mentioned the orb to cover neutral because contrary to his big size, he can get around on the ground rather swiftly so I wouldn't want people overly relying on neutral charging thinking that they were safe.

5CC and 2BB catches it midscreen. I'm very doubtful that this Azrael can go through Tsubaki's TK236A orbs with any kind of reliable consistency. The move only has 4F of invincibility. You have to time it extremely well for it to get through. Not to mention that if you read that he's gonna dash while the fireball is around chest height he's basically asking for a free punish. It's as Kiba says, if he's close enough for Dash to be a option, even if he can do it 100% of the time, he has other safer ways to get in at that range anyway.

[BatousaiJ]

I did some testing just now to that effect and my findings are as such-

Both 2BB and 5CC works to catch it at midscreen albeit unreliably as they can sometimes just back dash again before the second hit makes contact or do something else. 2BB is tougher to hit from what I tried but it can gatling into 2(B)B > 5B on hit.

Overall, I would say that 5CC is the better of the two from what I tested as a slight delay on the 5CC seems to catch it during its 3 active frames and then you can combo into 236A > etc etc. 236B can work but at that distance too but, it has a much greater chance to drop than 236A.

I would like a good 1 and no charge combo off such a far hit 5©C but outside of corners it's hard to do significant damage with that starter at that distance.

[Errol]

214D is reasonable even off a far hit 236a

[BatousaiJ]

236A > 214D combo works.

So does 236A > 214B > 22D charged.

214D ends with ground series and the 22D charged ends with air series. Both doing about 2.7k ish. Not bad, but not great.

DP whiff off the 5©C seems too far to hit so no charge will most likely be just the 236A > 214B > 22B which will reset them or hopefully have them sent to the corner for some reason fun since you started at mid screen.

[Errol]

wrong

236A > 214B > 22D charged ends with astral

[chzchan]

From best to worst in terms of disadvantaged matchups huh?

Probably: Nu/Ragna > Relius/Rachel/Hakumen/Bang > Hazama/Litchi/Mu > Valk/Tao > Kokonoe.

Azrael would probably be disadvantage as well, though only slightly so he would fit in with Nu/Ragna.

Rest is even with like 3 55:45's.

I would put Azrael up in the same area as Hakumen because of his vastly superior hitboxes and ability to absorb and punish use of projectiles with Growler. This destroys neutral utility of your projectile and makes the Blade Super pretty useless. These properties of Growler and the fact that Growler blows you across the screen as well significantly reduces the amount of options you have when trying to go on the offensive. These combined with gigantic bulk damage, amazing pokes, teleport dash cross-ups, and above average health make the matchup incredibly frustrating.

There are actually a lot more things I can list because of how familiar I am with this matchup due to a friend being an Azrael main that constantly destroys me, but I don't feel like writing up multiple paragraphs at the moment.

[Daedron]

Projectile should actually be your number 1 used move in the matchup, if he absorbs it you just get a chance to get close (though you still have to guess what he'll do after the invul ends).

If he doesn't absorb and instead tries to jump over it or was already in the air, it's completely in your favour at that point as he has no safe options anymore. Divekick will get him 5B/5C CH into 5-6K and you can go in for airthrows as well or run under him to get charge.

Also we're talking j.236A here (done relatively close to the ground), not [4]6C. Having the projectile out also makes him unable to use 236A, which is huge.

If you're not going to use projectile then yes, this matchup is hell as he'll outpoke you at every turn and you have almost no safe ways to get in, even with charge.

[Kiba]

I would put Azrael up in the same area as Hakumen.

I've, got mixed opinions about this. I understand Azrael's superiority over Tsubaki, but the matchup doesn't feel as hard as those other characters really. Huh, who knows, I could come back as change my mind about this but this is how I currently feel.

[chzchan]

I've, got mixed opinions about this. I understand Azrael's superiority over Tsubaki, but the matchup doesn't feel as hard as those other characters really. Huh, who knows, I could come back as change my mind about this but this is how I currently feel.

I always feel like there's this threshold that I never break when I fight them even if I seem like I have some momentum or some sort of lead. Feels the same way with Hakumen. There's a sort of psychological aspect to it as well because the opponent understands that they are free to make way more mistakes than you can.

I do agree that the other matchups are even more awful because they destroy even more of your options and either lock you into always defending or just make it so that you will never get hits in. The Azrael/Hakumen zone of matchups allow for you to get in hits/combos sometimes which are a sort of false hope instead of complete despair from the start in the worse matchups which makes things all the more painful when you just barely can't win.

Projectile should actually be your number 1 used move in the matchup, if he absorbs it you just get a chance to get close (though you still have to guess what he'll do after the invul ends).

If he doesn't absorb and instead tries to jump over it or was already in the air, it's completely in your favour at that point as he has no safe options anymore. Divekick will get him 5B/5C CH into 5-6K and you can go in for airthrows as well or run under him to get charge.

Also we're talking j.236A here (done relatively close to the ground), not [4]6C. Having the projectile out also makes him unable to use 236A, which is huge.

If you're not going to use projectile then yes, this matchup is hell as he'll outpoke you at every turn and you have almost no safe ways to get in, even with charge.

The mindgame that any Azrael used to using Phalanx projectiles can play is absolutely horrifying because the move starts up as fast as a grab at 7 frames. It is effectively a long ranged light attack that can be used to take advantage of the gaping holes in Tsubaki's blockstrings. If I happen to not be high enough off the ground when I use j.236A, 1000 damage from across the screen. If I try using [4]6C, the projectile busts right through mine and then smack. Airdashing is punished at close range by the slab and at long range by the projectile.

Using your projectile is a huge gamble.

[Kiba]

Yeah you raise some very good points with the projectile and the Hakumen/Azrael comparison. I see where you're coming from.

j.236A can help in frustrating Azrael but at the same allowing him to gain the projectile stops you from doing a lot of things in neutral. Characters like that who have that ability to prevent Tsubaki from fully taking advantage of her neutral game, will have it easier, which is why Relius feels especially hard.

[chzchan]

Yeah you raise some very good points with the projectile and the Hakumen/Azrael comparison. I see where you're coming from.

j.236A can help in frustrating Azrael but at the same allowing him to gain the projectile stops you from doing a lot of things in neutral. Characters like that who have that ability to prevent Tsubaki from fully taking advantage of her neutral game, will have it easier, which is why Relius feels especially hard.

It's like trying to beat a large buff bodyguard as a little girl by throwing loaded pistols at him. You hope and pray that one of those pistols will make the bodyguard flinch so you can advance and maybe land a few blows that you already know will do nothing more than tickle him. You also hope that if he catches one of the pistols that he doesn't know how to use it. Of course these hopes are never fulfilled.

[LordSpectreX]

Azrael isn't the type of character that just "beats" a character by locking down your options all that much. He's largely psychological, which is why Kiba probably doesn't find him that hard. You never really have to "firm" anything Azrael does. If you read him, you beat him. Even for a character like Tsubaki, she still has whiff cancelable normals, projectiles, a DP, a regular dash. The only generally typical thing she has trouble doing compared to other characters is Growler safe normals (lolhi5CC). Azrael has the advantage sure, but that's largely due to just being a generally stronger character.

Also, If Azrael tries to Growler Fireballs for Cannons, you can IAD towards him and do J.C(delay)C in order to option select his backdash. He gets a stock in return for taking a hit/allowing you to start pressure. You might not think it's worth it, sure, but I don't think it's quite the free neutral destroying option that you're making it out to be.

[Errol]

she still has whiff cancelable normals

please stop

whiff cancelable normals are bad much more often than they are good

Also, If Azrael tries to Growler Fireballs for Cannons, you can IAD towards him and do J.C(delay)C in order to option select his backdash. He gets a stock in return for taking a hit/allowing you to start pressure. You might not think it's worth it, sure, but I don't think it's quite the free neutral destroying option that you're making it out to be.

Growler has no vulnerability. He doesn't "take a hit/allow you to start pressure". He gets put into a wakeup position. which means he either backdashes, or dps, or mashes, or jumps, or pretty much anything he wants to do.

[LordSpectreX]

please stop

whiff cancelable normals are bad much more often than they are good

Kiba using 2B[w]2BB.. It's a situational way to beat certain options. Even if you're right and they're more bad than good, it doesn't mean it's not useful. Dragon Punches are bad in more situations than they are good, but it doesn't mean they're useless.

Growler has no vulnerability. He doesn't "take a hit/allow you to start pressure". He gets put into a wakeup position. which means he either backdashes, or dps, or mashes, or jumps, or pretty much anything he wants to do.

Is this a joke? Growler doesn't even have enough active frames of invulnerability to cover it's startup completely. If Azrael absorbs a projectile and Tsubaki is close enough to get into 5B range before the recovery ends, then Azrael does not have the advantage in any way. That's the payoff for getting an incredibly quick projectile.

[Errol]

Kiba using 2B[w]2BB.. It's a situational way to beat certain options. Even if you're right and they're more bad than good, it doesn't mean it's not useful. Dragon Punches are bad in more situations than they are good, but it doesn't mean they're useless.

Is this a joke? Growler doesn't even have enough active frames of invulnerability to cover it's startup completely. If Azrael absorbs a projectile and Tsubaki is close enough to get into 5B range before the recovery ends, then Azrael does not have the advantage in any way. That's the payoff for getting an incredibly quick projectile.

GTFO. whiff cancels remove basic options that exist in fighting games and have to be worked around to avoid the negative effects (and remove what would be very useful options). If you drop a combo, you're pretty much getting punished because you just did something with 60f+ of recovery. whiff cancels are very situationally useful for punishing backdashes and that's about it - and usually not very well, because of distance and followups. they're not something you can just choose not to use like a DP. Though I know that getting killed by Kiba will start to make anything seem unfair.

As for growler. I never said Azrael gets an ADVANTAGE. I was simply pointing out that, no, you don't get a free hit or pressure on azrael if he uses it. air dash jcc to OS a backdash..that must be the joke...

[Airk]

About the only thing that whiff cancels were good for was stuffing Noel's stupid counter assault if they did it at the wrong time, and since her CA is an attack now, even that doesn't matter. :P

[Daedron]

The last 2 pages really should be in the Azrael matchup thread...

In any case, whiff cancellable normals hardly help against Azrael, I've done 5BB before on his wakeup and it didn't punish his backdash, I've done IAD j.CC before on his wakeup and it didn't get the backdash, perhaps I didn't delay them long enough but in any case, it's hardly helpful. During pressure they're 100% useless as the increased gap just means he can backdash for free as there's nothing I can do at that point...

[bakahyl]

Whiff cancellable normals only seem to work against teleport mashing Kokonoe players..

Azrael's backdash is basically as good as Tager's except that it seems to cover more distance and Azrael is not airborn.

Eventhough i don't play Tsubaki, can't you basically chase his backdash down with your own dash or try any of your shield charges if you hard guess the Azrael doing a backdash? As a Mu player i use a yomi Ikutachi to hit Azrael on the recovery of his backdash, not sure if Tsubaki has something similar

[Kiba]

Eventhough i don't play Tsubaki, can't you basically chase his backdash down with your own dash or try any of your shield charges if you hard guess the Azrael doing a backdash?

This is something I usually do.