[CP] Tsubaki vs Hakumen

[Kiba]

Discuss how his OD ruins your life!

[BatousaiJ]

Got some Hakubro match up today and he's about as annoying as he was before in extend which means VERY.

He can 3C out of any charge cancel pressure with ease and call out long gatlings with counters and etc. If you jump in on him, he can either wait for you to put out a normal for a counter or just 5A anti air you for a decent amount of damage and knock down. I noticed that when he was just mashing 3C out of my charge cancel, I was able to 5CC > CC > j.C before he was able to recover from throwing out 3C.

Using orbs here is obviously not recommended his since he'll just slice through it with ease and you'll just have another thing to worry about. Getting charge at neutral is possible as long as you're quick to IAD back or forward to get out of his sword range.

I landed some 3CC FC and noticed that with the normal timing of 5C > 2CC > CT, he would simply drop out for free so I had to adjust to doing a micro dash 5C > 2CC > CT to make it work and while it's not that hard to do, it's yet another place the combo can drop.

Instead, I opted for 5B > 2CC > CT and it worked every time and for our no charge variation with ground ending, I ended up losing like 150 damage or so which I'm willing to give up to make a combo easier to land(since we're doing 4k+ on that one anyway).

Using a healthy amount of throws and of course, command grab is highly recommended in this match up especially if the player likes to use the counter often. I also managed to throw in a lot of 6A FC with minor frame traps and tricky little setups since if he times his 2D, he'll be at counter state and you'll get that FC.

His mobility on the ground isn't very good but make sure to keep an eye out if he's charging his 4C. He'll mostly coming at you from the air and you should be able to 2C anti air most of the time but he can bait that with a j.D counter if you start being predictable with it in which case, using air throws in between will keep him more honest.

His 6B is improved and he can get a healthy bit of damage on a CH and it will go over things like 2A > 2B so keep an eye out for that and use 5A instead if you're trying to poke out of its starting frames.

His 5D counter seems to active for days now but if you manage to bait it, don't wait for it to end and just throw his ass for a counter throw every time.

Hakumen has always been a difficult match up for Tsu and it's not really any different here with his ridiculous burst damage at its highest peak and various tools at his disposal that basically makes it so we're always having to play his way but it's manageable once you start to get a grasp on the player's tendencies.

Edit: I forgot to mention that if you instant block his 6B, you can 5A punish him for free so use that to your advantage if he is using it on your wake up.

[C0R]

Edit: I forgot to mention that if you instant block his 6B, you can 5A punish him for free so use that to your advantage if he is using it on your wake up.

6b is cancelable into drive. Annoying as fkkkk

[BatousaiJ]

On block? I tried this in training mode and didn't seem to work.

[Owner]

It is indeed a very frustrating matchup

Almost every trick or gimmick will not really work on him (orb oki in corner, charge canceling along with pressure, etc.)

But there is one thing you can do if he wants to punish you for charging in neutral:

Try charging outside of his 3C/4C range (2D charge recommended because faster recovery), if he is dumb enough to do IAD j2C you can punish him with DP and combo if you have enough resources

Unfortunately he now can play a mindame on his arial approach with his new air special "Akiko" (or whatever it's called) and afterwards he is able to do another air normal

[4] 6D - 236D is also unsafe (any D move or yukikaze can beat it), however if he slashes the orb halfscreen with 4C/6C and the red void does not hit you instantly your 236D will still go through the void without problems and you get a free hit.

[Naphiel]

6B to counter has never been a thing. Or at least since CS2.

I mained Hakumen in CS2 and Extend and still play him to some extent in this so I'll post what I know on the match up.

3C is fast (8 or 9 frames) but he shouldn't be able to hit you out of any charge cancel with it. 2A is a better option for him since it's faster and plus on block. If a Hakumen is attempting to 3C you out of your pressure, block it and hit him with 5B or 5C (whichever you're in range for) as it's unsafe and he's left crouching.

Although I haven't been able to put it into practice yet, Agito/J.2C "mix-up" shouldn't be too much of a problem for us because of the angle of 2C. DP should beat both options clean. If he's directly above you, I think both of his options will beat your 2C. I'll test DP later.

6A is a much better tool in this match up now as he lost his 1 frame high counter. 6D has crazy start up now and 5D is 6 or so which is harder to react to overheads with. 2D is still 1 frame and a nuisance.

Throws are great in this match up. At worst he techs them but it stops him from abusing counters. From tech throw range I think only his 3C can connect (I'll check on this later) and if that's the case it'll beat 5B, but if you block it you can reapply pressure or potentially punish it. Once they start respecting that you're going for throws a lot you can start delaying your gattlings more as they're watching out for them.

4C is -11 uncharged. Use this time to approach and start applying pressure. If he follows this up with Gurren (the shoulder charge) be careful. It's +1.

I disagree with throwing 5D. Since it has a lot of recovery anyway, most Hakumens hold it since they're in a bad situation either way. Get that counter hit 2B/3C and make him think twice about doing it again. Even if he doesn't hold it both should work depending on how fast you react.

I want to stress the importance of blocking high when needed in this match up. 6B leads to good options on regular hit and a lot of damage on CH. Dash or tk Tsubaki hotaru leads to absurd damage and is a great OD starter. Hotaru only connects if he's up close so if he's looking to TK it he has to be right beside you can he has no low follow ups to his dash so make sure it stand block if he forward dashes. I'm not sure if dash Agito hits overhead (likely) but careful if you block this. He can follow it up with an extremely low to the ground j.B which leaves him at a lot of advantage.

I'm heading out to play now but I'm going to check up some more things on this match up in training mode when I get home. If there's anything in particular that's giving people problems post here and I'll see if I can come up with something.

[BatousaiJ]

3C works well vs Charge cancel when I tested it out. Just a micro dash 5a from 5CC > CC > 5A was trading vs 3C and obviously, that's vastly in his favor when that happens.

I have a problem with DPing him on his jump in since it feels so very risky compared to say, 2C.

5D only counters high? Very nice, I'll agree with punishing with 3CC as well, then.

I generally block low and then try to react to TK Tsubaki and what ever that 236C move is called but I haven't gotten used to recognizing then and blocking right away just yet as I was able to do in extend.

Oh and I forgot to mention, I noticed that his 5D counter was whiffing on activation on 5B max range pokes which I didn't know was possible. While I didn't do it, couldn't I just 22D him in the face as he's recovering from 5D activation for free?

[Errol]

counters if activated are completely unpunishable.

hak 3c certainly can mash out of charge cancels, and can mash out of overhead too.

I haven't really done it much or enough but I do think the correct approach is to either block high or backdash or jump out without pressing buttons against Hakumen. His damage off of lows is low/harder to follow up, For Hakumen That Is.

I think you're using similar stuff to what I do in this matchup anyway BJ. I think lots of use of 3c is good in this matchup, especially the more and more they use drives in neutral. The reward is just quite good. Good to know that you can use 5b without having to microdash to get the CT combo. I will use that. Thanks.

I don't think 6a is great in this matchup even still as it is way too fucking slow, but you get good reward if he tries to low counter and you get a fatal. safe jumps are definitely great now with the loss of free frame 1 overhead counters.

That's all, this matchup is definitely worse than EX.

[mAc Chaos]

If you IB 6B you can punish without getting countered. Or better yet, just throw if you are close enough.

His counter range got nerfed so 5D will whiff, but he can still get you with the Enma followup.

Barrier blocking against Tsubaki makes 3C a lot more viable midpressure.

Oh and j.D isn't as effective anymore because it requires a minimum height to use. So you almost have to completely guess that Tsubaki is going to 2C rather than waiting for the last possible moment. But Agito is still an option too. (It also hits mid.)

[Naphiel]

3C has more pushback than I remember. Dash 5CC punishes it at everything but max range. Dash 5B 22B/D works at max range but it's tricky.

When you charge cancel off any normal with good pushback like 5CC you're putting yourself in a pretty bad spot. His 2A and 3C beat out a lot of our options at this range.

I'd only use dp as an anti air against his air dash, which is really long. Otherwise I'd go for 2C or just block.

I phrased it poorly before, I mean it's well worth our time to get familiar with his overheads and at what ranges to be concerned about them. He gets a ton off damage off all of them except for 6B, which does crazy damage on CH. I meant to emphasise blocking standing in response to his forward dash. It's good to hear we don't have to worry about blocking dash Agito high, it's really fast.

[mAc Chaos]

It's good to hear we don't have to worry about blocking dash Agito high, it's really fast.

You don't, but he can do j.B after it.

[TheGreatReptar]

Just some notes:

 

Haku can't do anything about meaty 6A when he doesn't have Yukikaze stocked. Gotta be on point with the meaty timing or he'll counter or TK Hotaru it.

 

Haku with 2 stars after a knockdown where you can't get meaty 6A is the worst. You're in this wacky RPS game where he's either going to block, TK Hotaru, or counter. Generally I'll dash up 2A on an expected Hotaru, since it won't hit you crouching and if you time it meaty enough you just hit Haku out of jump startup. You can also just sit and crouch block in his face to see what he'll do an react accordingly, but you're also giving him the change to escape or just hit buttons on you.

 

The RPS game gets easier once you get 50 meter and charge though, since you can mugen on his wakeup to freeze frame him to see what he's going to do. In the off chance you freeze-frame a Yukikaze, you can actually do a full charge 22D to punish it. 

 

Neutral's tricky too. I think the only normal he has that completely outreaches everything Tsubaki has is 4C, which I don't see very often playing against Skeletal Minion. 22B reaches farther than his 3C though, so fishing for CHs with it can work if your spacing is super on point. 

 

As for Haku doing 6A>3C or 6A>counter, pretty sure kara grabbing will beat both of those options. 

 

I'll try to clean up how rough these notes are later. 

[Monarch]

So how are you supposed to get in on this guy in neutral. I've encountered a problem where Hakumen's are able to defeat my air to air approach with j.2A, j.5C, and j.2C. I tried anti-airing, but his j.2C has a longer reach than our 2C. Any tips?

[Airk]

Anti-air extra early? Worst case you clash.  But mostly I'm afraid you want to play a ground game, and a very patient game in general.  3C is mysteriously good in neutral in this matchup.  Or was in Extend anyway.  Not much Hakumen experience yet.

[Monarch]

I found my answer. 5B is amazing at max range for catching Hakumen's that IAD<j.2C or even IAD<Agito.

[mAc Chaos]

Errol should chime in since we used to play a lot.

[Airk]

Say Hakumen's name three times and mAc Chaos appears?

[BlackYakuzu94]

I found my answer. 5B is amazing at max range for catching Hakumen's that IAD<j.2C or even IAD<Agito.

 

Yea, I got bodied by that a few back against a tsubaki from the lobby.

[chzchan]

Figured out that if Hakumen catches your 214D with his 236236D DD counter, you can rapid and then activate OD right when superflash ends and dodge the unblockable attack. You are at a pretty unfavorable position after you dodge, but if you know the timing for when Hakumen's full body invuln wears off you can try to grab him while you are still in OD for big damage.

 

Also, 214D specifically does not allow Hakumen to get a Fatal Counter out of his DD which I think has to do with the late invuln frames on it.

 

You can also rapid out of 623C catching on the DD and time a jump correctly in the air to dodge the unblockable attack. For some reason I think that her DP is treated like a projectile in this case but I really don't know.