[CP] Tsubaki vs Noel

[Kiba]

Discuss the Noel matchup here!

[Zouf]

She is weaker than before that's for sure. Her combos don't do so much damage anymore, and her pressing isn't so great. But her drives are now so fast that it's a blockstun, and you can't DP in it anymore, except when she uses her feint overhead to low, there is a small gap where you can DP.

And now if you block her overhead (6B i believe), just DP. She will (almost) always cancel it by 5D.

I really hated this matchup on extend, now it's much easier.

[TheGreatReptar]

You can't jab punish after a blocked 2D anymore ;_; Dunno why a Noel would be doing raw 2D now, but that gap being gone is suffering. It's actually gapless for her to do 2D>d5A, but on IB you can DP through it, which 2D is pretty hilariously easy to IB after you've started blocking it.

Also when Noel's are going crazy and trying to 2D over your head, holding 1 and hitting C will either 2C if they're in front, or if you do it late, you'll get 3C to come out which almost always seems to fatal.

[Monarch]

You can't jab punish after a blocked 2D anymore ;_; Dunno why a Noel would be doing raw 2D now, but that gap being gone is suffering. It's actually gapless for her to do 2D>d5A, but on IB you can DP through it, which 2D is pretty hilariously easy to IB after you've started blocking it.

Also when Noel's are going crazy and trying to 2D over your head, holding 1 and hitting C will either 2C if they're in front, or if you do it late, you'll get 3C to come out which almost always seems to fatal.

Sucks how you can't punish 2D anymore. 2D was an absolute monster in CSEX, so not having it in CP is even more annoying.

[BatousaiJ]

Got a few matches against a variety of Noel players so I'll chime in here a bit.

One of the more annoying things about Noel after the 4D buff is how you approach pressuring her when she can option select 4D to beat most of our options and the answer to that is about the same as it was in Extend.

We can no longer use 6C to crush all of her D options so you just have to be smart about it and I often find myself doing meaty 2B on Noel's wake up quite often as it will quickly stuff her 4D nonsense.The problem with 2B/2BB starters is that it prorates badly and it's hard to convert a good amount of damage but it's something we just have to deal with. I will also time a meaty 3CC after knock away providing I have the meter to RC or I'm just calling it out flat against a player who abuses it to much. Just remember to time your 3CC and don't mash it as if you cross over on neutral tech, it no longer autocorrects but you should still recover in time to block if timed correctly as long as you don't go for the second hit. I land 3CC FCH often and end up practicing various combo paths off that starter whenever I play against a Noel and it's pretty fun.

Also, don't forget that we have 5B > 3CC gatling as well as some Noels like to 4D in midrange where we can't go into 5BB or 5B > 5C since at mid range our only real continuation outside of charge use in that scenario is to 5B > 5D > and continued pressure.

So if you go 5B > 3CC while they're starting to try to mash out of pressure with 4D, you'll land a nice FCH.

Outside of 4D, her only other real reversal is her DD which you should watch out for when she has the meter.

It's not recommended you try to take Noel in the air as while she doesn't have the best air normals in the game, I would say it's a bit better than ours and she can convert for positioning and superior damage compared to what we can get by landing an air to air exchange.

Noel also has the option to use her projectile to try to shut down your charge after knock away so play accordingly by keeping charge times short or just long enough to bait the projectile and then dash in for a free hit while she's stuck in animation. 46D > 236D can be interrupted rather easily by her projectile during the 46D animation so time it correctly to remove her option to do so.

[Zouf]

Yeah i've tried 6C and 6A on wake up and both got beaten by her 4D. Wtf, is the framedata wrong or what? 4D is supposed to be Body invul, and both our 6C and 6A are (supposed) High/Low, and not Body. I just don't get it why it won't work.

2B is pretty bad yes, i've thought of throwing 3C on oki but i'm not so sure it's worth it. Against poor noel players maybe, but good ones won't get caught by it tbh. This matchup is still less painful than in CSEX to me, but we seriously need a buff on our 2B, it prorates really poorly.

Oh yeah and you can't use 46D>236D or 236D raw on her, 4D beats everything and more.

[NecroTheReaper]

Out of curiosity, I took a look even though I dont play tsubaki. 6A and 6C are body attribute, what you were looking at is how you can block them. They are indeed different xD

[Airk]

Yeah i've tried 6C and 6A on wake up and both got beaten by her 4D. Wtf, is the framedata wrong or what? 4D is supposed to be Body invul, and both our 6C and 6A are (supposed) High/Low, and not Body. I just don't get it why it won't work.

Uh, neither of those moves has Head anymore. Both did in Extend, but they're both just Body now. I don't think there are any grounded moves that have Head invulnerability anymore, so there are no options for beating 4B 'automagically', especially since the invulnerability got lengthened in CP so it no longer wears off before the move becomes active. If you have her in the corner, meaty throw may work - it's not clear at what point 2D leaves the ground and therefore becomes throw Invulnerable, but throw will beat 4D as long as you're in range to grab her. It's probably worth someone with the game testing to see if meaty throw beats 2D as well. That would be useful to know.

2B is pretty bad yes, i've thought of throwing 3C on oki but i'm not so sure it's worth it. Against poor noel players maybe, but good ones won't get caught by it tbh. This matchup is still less painful than in CSEX to me, but we seriously need a buff on our 2B, it prorates really poorly.

Worst 2B in the game FTW! Seriously. I was bored, so I checked the data for every other character. The only characters with worse proration on 2B are Noel (but hers starts up in 7 frames.) and Tao (Ditto). Litchi 2B[e] (which low profiles and has hilarious range) and Mu's 2B have basically the same overall proration (Actually, they're slightly better - they add up the the same effective starting proration, but have a higher P2 so they're better than ours mid-combo.) Pretty much everyone's is faster than ours too (Exception: Bang, but his 2B is...odd, since it's also not a low). Rushdown character with non-rushdown normals! >.< Someday, I would like to have a talk with whoever designed our normals. Both 2B and 6A should be 2-4 frames faster than they are.

[NecroTheReaper]

Since it was posted somewhere else, I believe I heard someone mention her 2D doesn't leave the ground till frame 4 so meaty grabs should work. Sorry if I have no business here in the tsubaki section xD;

[Zouf]

Uh, neither of those moves has Head anymore. Both did in Extend, but they're both just Body now. I don't think there are any grounded moves that have Head invulnerability anymore, so there are no options for beating 4B 'automagically', especially since the invulnerability got lengthened in CP so it no longer wears off before the move becomes active. If you have her in the corner, meaty throw may work - it's not clear at what point 2D leaves the ground and therefore becomes throw Invulnerable, but throw will beat 4D as long as you're in range to grab her. It's probably worth someone with the game testing to see if meaty throw beats 2D as well. That would be useful to know.

Worst 2B in the game FTW! Seriously. I was bored, so I checked the data for every other character. The only characters with worse proration on 2B are Noel (but hers starts up in 7 frames.) and Tao (Ditto). Litchi 2B[e] (which low profiles and has hilarious range) and Mu's 2B have basically the same overall proration (Actually, they're slightly better - they add up the the same effective starting proration, but have a higher P2 so they're better than ours mid-combo.) Pretty much everyone's is faster than ours too (Exception: Bang, but his 2B is...odd, since it's also not a low). Rushdown character with non-rushdown normals! >.< Someday, I would like to have a talk with whoever designed our normals. Both 2B and 6A should be 2-4 frames faster than they are.

Well in the wiki 6C and 6A are both HL and not Body at all. This is a mistake on the wiki then.

edit : ok i just understood that HL means body -_- my bad

[Airk]

Well in the wiki 6C and 6A are both HL and not Body at all. This is a mistake on the wiki then.

Er, first of all, 6A is not HL anywhere. It's an overhead, and only has H - I just doublechecked.

Second of all, you are confusing the 'block type' with the 'attribute'. For block type H is 'High' and L is 'Low' - meaning that 6C can be blocked standing or crouching. But if you look at the frame data, the 9th column is labelled 'attribute' - that's the one that has H ('Head'), B ('Body'), F ('Foot'), T ('Throw'), P ('Projectile') and so forth. THAT is what is checked when evaluating Noel's invulnerability states. You can have a move that hits High, but doesn't have Head Attribute (Example: 6A) or an attack that has Head Attribute, but doesn't hit high (Example: j.214X). Don't confuse the two, or you will....be confused.

[Zouf]

Damn, i've never noticed this column, no wonder i got confused.

Thanks for unconfusing me.

6B can be a good option on Noel wake up. Good prorate, positive on block. But too slow to be used on oki midscreen and gives us less mixup option though.... :\

ARCSYS GIVE US A GOOD LOW DAMMIT

[Airk]

Damn, i've never noticed this column, no wonder i got confused.

Thanks for unconfusing me.

Glad to help out.

6B can be a good option on Noel wake up. Good prorate, positive on block. But too slow to be used on oki midscreen and gives us less mixup option though.... :\

6B will lose flat out to a wakeup 2D, actually, because while apparently 2D isn't 'airborne' on frame 1, it IS foot invulnerable from frame 1, and, well, 6B is only Foot.

ARCSYS GIVE US A GOOD LOW DAMMIT

I prefer 'Arcsys! Fix our normals!'. We have such garbage normals it's kinda funny.

[Monarch]

Is there enough time to grab Noel while she's doing 6B?

[Airk]

Is there enough time to grab Noel while she's doing 6B?

 

Yes; It's actually the same lousy speed as our 6A; It's a little bit of a tight window after 5C, but I don't think I've ever seen a Noel do that anyway.

[chzchan]

How do you punish 4D when the opposing Noel uses it to break out of pressure? I have been going back and forth against this one for a while and once I start doing slightly delayed followups to try and catch 5A mashing, they started using 4D. In response to that I tried to just charge cancel into block instead of going for frame traps, but what do you do after blocking 4D?

Read above that using 3C to try and stuff it might work, but that is a pretty big commitment.

[Airk]

Yeah, basically when you get 50 meter, you start going into 3C from time to time. Though you can also charge cancel -> 2A sometimes, depending.  You'll be vulnerable to just totally mashing 5A on their part, but any attempts to react you'll probably beat, and if they do 4D you'll either hit them or recover in time to block.  Of course, 5B(B)>2B will usually beat this too.

[chzchan]

2B doesn't have enough range to hit them out of 4D if they barrier anything before 2B is used.

[Airk]

2B doesn't have enough range to hit them out of 4D if they barrier anything before 2B is used.

 

I suspect that might be spacing specific, but I'll check.

 

That said, you might be able to do 2BB. 4D actually has a really long startup before it can hit you.

 

Will have to test.

[chzchan]

Optic Barrel being dash cancellable changed EVERYTHING.

[Airk]

Optic Barrel being dash cancellable changed EVERYTHING.

That sounds awful. =(

[chzchan]

Actually haven't gotten to fight too many of them and unfortunately I have done so only online, but Noel being able to dash cancel optic barrel even on whiff makes the matchup a goddamn nightmare in various places.

She can use it to reset pressure when she is at certain distances in a pressure string even if I barrier or instant barrier which is pretty scary. I know that you can mash or DP out here, but if she spaces things correctly it is hard. I am pretty sure you can just up back out for free though, especially if you IB the projectile. In most cases probably because of me respecting her too much, blocking Optic Barrel means that they immediately get momentum. This is not the worst of it, though.

So what I would do before is make them whiff Optic Barrel and then try to close distance because they will be stuck in recovery for at least a moment. Too bad you can't do that now because even on whiff she can just dash cancel and punish your retaliation. Whiffed Optic Barrel into dash cancelled 4D is the worst. This makes neutral way worse than it already was.