[CP] Tsubaki vs Ragna

[Kiba]

Ha!

The matchup is more or less the same, but you have a few new tools.

j.236A helps a lot in this matchup because it helps you to control Ragna's approach. If he tries to jump over it you can get ready for an AA but if 2C is blocked either back away or go for 22B CH because they may try to press buttons (the usual, they may try to AA you because Tsubaki has limited options after 2C). j.236A is useful for controlling neutral, but you'd preferably want to use this when you're afar, if you use it when you're closer to him he could try to pressure you (you may not be punished thanks to the fact that j.236A lost landing recovery, but you'll be on the defensive.)

Fireballs are useful but I don't really use the C version. This isn't to say use the D version often, I'd rather save the charge for combos. Blood Scythe may remain unknown to you guys, but once you get used to it you'll realise you have a few options against it. You can air grab him out of it, or AA, or you can even OD it on reaction and punish him! Frankly it shouldn't be used on block but if he does, make him pay. You'll need to be fairly fast though, because the ground version of Blood Scythe fatals.

Unfortunately Ragna can mash 5A to beat most of your options: jump ins, attempted crossups (I did 5B > IAD j.B and it got beat by 5A), air to air, it's pretty ridiculous just how much he can mash 5A to literally beat most things we have.

Ragna's pressure is good, but Ragna isn't scary when he's got you down. I'm more concerned about the fact that I'll be blocking for a while. It helps if you barrier or IB so you can get away easier or DP, especially DP lol. If you have him blocking though it's the reverse. Make sure you use everything in your arsenal to make the player scared: Command grabs, throws, frame traps. The problem I had is that usually I was out of range to do anything major so most of my stuff would get beaten by 5A. When he was mashing in my strings I started frame trapping, and then when he became a little more honest I started using command grabs.

Speaking of this matchup, I don't really charge in neutral because of how much priority Ragna's normals have, being 5B and 5C in particular. Even if you do block them, you'll be on the defensive, although it won't be as strong because it's very likely you'll be blocking from a distance.

[Kiba]

Above post. I'm going to try to keep the information in the first post of all matchup threads so it's easier to read.

[Monarch]

How do you approach ragna? His normals always prevent me from just rushing in. I'm forced to play passively until an opportunity presents itself.

[Daedron]

That's exactly what you do, I generally try to have a j.236A projectile out and simply watch his movements a bit. Don't get reckless and go for quick mixups if you get him blocking so as to not give him multiple chances to use ID.

At round start I find myself nearly always IAD'ing backwards, then depending on what he does you can have a projectile out right there and then (if he backs off himself or jumps). If he tries to jump over projectile you can also run under him and start charging a bit or create some space.

But yeah, don't even try contesting his normals, it's no use.

[-Kid]

That's exactly what you do, I generally try to have a j.236A projectile out and simply watch his movements a bit.

This. 100%

What most players don't realise is that j.236A just destroys most of Ragna's approaches. Can't tell you how many times I've literally waited for the orb to get low enough so I can jump over it, only then to get air thrown or pressured with j.A. Running underneath the orb is also awkward and not practical. Hell, even blood scythe doesn't work well all the time.

His normals always prevent me from just rushing in.

You aren't supposed to be rushing in.

[chzchan]

Most Ragnas just j.214D or 214A around all my fireballs. Also there a few Ragnas that I have fought that j.623C in order to counter my AA attempt after they jump if they try to advance in over projectiles. What do I do against his air DP? What do I do against Ragnas that like to jump on wakeup in order to hold them down? Up-backing barrier into his air DP is the worst thing ever not to mention incredibly hard to bait because if you try and they don't DP in the air it is a get out of jail free card even in the corner. Do I just have to time my meaties so well that I hit them out of jump startup?

 

Also, how do you deal with Gauntlet Hades? This isn't a Tsubaki specific thing, but it is the hardest thing to block ever.

[Airk]

I hate Gauntlet Hades. I have no answers for it.

 

If people are jumping out on wakeup, you need to fix your meaty timings. This should not be an option unless you are deliberately baiting something.  The alternative here though is that if you're expecting a jumpout you can fake a meaty (dash up > nothing) and then jump and air throw them.

 

You do the same thing 'against' his air DP that you do against his ground one - you bait it and you punish him for 4k+ (Though I'm not sure if you get a CH if you wait for him to land, so some experimentation may be in order.).

[chzchan]

Recently I have run into Ragnas that tk.Gauntlet Hades which is even scarier because it becomes a 16f overhead rather than an already incredibly fast-for-the-range-it-gets 20f overhead. They can only do it out of 5A, 3C and 6C because those are his only normals that are jump cancellable, but because Gauntlet Hades is a SPECIAL OVERHEAD he can do it out out of all of his normals so I never know when to expect it. I just know when he is able to do it faster than he normally does. It is pretty easy to differentiate as well because the dust cloud that the move creates is significantly smaller when tk.Gauntlet Hades is used because the dust is created by the jump rather than the actual move itself.

 

tk.Blood Scythe is even worse because you actually cannot do shit about it and if used out of 3C or 6C, you will get hit from behind so fast you will barely realize it. You have to be super wary of spacing when Ragnas start pulling this shit so barrier is important. He is negative on block if you actually react fast enough, though. It is actually really funny, though because if you react fast enough, your hitbox's position actually causes tk.Blood Scythe to whiff. You can actually counter this if you just take your hand off of a direction entirely. This is only if you did not barrier, though. You can DP out of it, but make sure that you are keeping track of which side he appears on.

 

Oh also another thing he can do is 3C > j.B which is the worst thing ever because of j.b's hitbox. I have tested this thoroughly in training mode and Tsubaki cannot AA it at all with anything because she will be facing the wrong direction. You can DP it if you do it as fast as possible, but just a frame or two too late and Ranga will hop right over your DP's hitbox. What's even funnier is that if you do your reversal super, 236236C, IT WILL TRADE WITH j.B. You will get smacked with j.B and 236236C's animation will get cancelled. God I hate when that happens. Sure it looks funny, but there goes your damage off of it and potential followup if you had 1 charge. Also, you can attempt to backwards DP as he hits the ground on the opposite side, but be wary that j.B has no landing recovery so he can barrier the instant he touches the ground.

 

I guess I'll just time my meaties better and hopefully not get regular DP'd. I am incredibly reluctant to go for meaties in this matchup, but I guess I should try for a safejump. Too bad I can't do that from a midscreen knockdown. Not being able to lock people down after a knockdown is the absolute worst.

[D.R.F.]

Just for the record because of the time it takes for GH to reach a crouching hitbox it is actually a 24 frame overhead. Especially online it is kinda wierd to block but the animation is very noticeable. Tk GH is pretty godlike, but it is very unreliable off of normals, since ragna has only moves jump-cancelable on block. Despite ID being ID it is very unrewarding to bait it everytime, unless you play yops all day. Good players will take advantage of that tenitiveness and react accordingly, from running pressure to run-up throws.

[Kiba]

Most Ragnas just j.214D or 214A around all my fireballs.

 

Also, how do you deal with Gauntlet Hades? This isn't a Tsubaki specific thing, but it is the hardest thing to block ever.

 

If Ragnas are getting around your fireballs with those attacks, it definitely sounds like you're too close. I normally like to air grab Ragna after he jumps over 421A fireball

 

You just try to IB the first hit and then punish with 2A. You use 2A because if he does the followup your crouching hitbox will avoid it. You need to IB to get the punish. And you're getting hit by GH, online. It's online mate. No stress.

 

 

 

[chzchan]

If Ragnas are getting around your fireballs with those attacks, it definitely sounds like you're too close. I normally like to air grab Ragna after he jumps over 421A fireball

 

I wish that worked 100% of the time. I'll start practicing IB'ing certain moves I guess.

[Airk]

If Ragnas are getting around your fireballs with those attacks, it definitely sounds like you're too close. I normally like to air grab Ragna after he jumps over 421A fireball

 

You just try to IB the first hit and then punish with 2A. You use 2A because if he does the followup your crouching hitbox will avoid it. You need to IB to get the punish. And you're getting hit by GH, online. It's online mate. No stress.

Oh, I like the 2A thing. Duly noted.

[chzchan]

What are the best ways to trick Ragnas into thinking you are not baiting his DP when you actually are? Just general motions and spacing I can never ever seem to get down. They always always know when I am baiting and either grab me or upback barrier away. Recently I have never been able to meaty a Ragna. Is it possible to meaty a Ragna?

[Airk]

This comes down to recognizing what you are doing when you are not baiting.  And then doing all of it except pushing a button.  If you always dash in when you're doing a meaty, but you don't dash in when you're baiting.... and vice versa.

[TeeJay]

This comes down to recognizing what you are doing when you are not baiting.  And then doing all of it except pushing a button.  If you always dash in when you're doing a meaty, but you don't dash in when you're baiting.... and vice versa.

Yeah, this is something I have to pay attention on and improve. I'm not too strong with oki. I am probably just straight up improvising. I tend to either dash meaty, dash backdash, dash tick or do a risky dash back jump orb or tk orb. I'll also in the corner stand back 3c range and orb or IAD j.C delay j.CC. I wonder if orb is why Tsubaki can't 22D unblockable? 

 

If you like to dash 2a/5a mash or something to stop people from rolling out, you do that and then block as they wake up. It just comes down to selling it. 

 

I don't have real setups. 

[chzchan]

This comes down to recognizing what you are doing when you are not baiting.  And then doing all of it except pushing a button.  If you always dash in when you're doing a meaty, but you don't dash in when you're baiting.... and vice versa.

 

But its sort of like they always don't DP when I dash up without hitting buttons and then when I hit buttons there has never failed to be a DP. If I dash up without hitting buttons I usually get grabbed and I have gotten used to seeing it coming, so I can tech that grab nearly 100% of the time but then everything is back to neutral and I have to deal with Ragna in neutral again which is super difficult.

 

Is there a special way I have to hit buttons when I run up to make it seem like I am going for a meaty when I am actually not? This is one of the reasons I don't like ground enders midscreen. I mean I try for safejump setups, but most of the time if they see me jumping they just roll backward.

 

I need a way to fake a broadcast cleanly because it just never works.

[Airk]

This sounds more like you're having a run of bad luck than anything else, but have you tried dashing up and whiffing some jabs over them while they tech?

[TeeJay]

^^Sometimes when people can safely press buttons right before I tech, i can flinch DP thinking I'm getting attacked or they mistimed an attack. I've had success baiting some DPs with just movement. 

[chzchan]

Then I'm just having bad luck 100% of the time no coin flips. It doesn't feel like I have enough time to whiff some jabs before they wake up when I dash after a combo ender.

[Airk]

Then I'm just having bad luck 100% of the time no coin flips. It doesn't feel like I have enough time to whiff some jabs before they wake up when I dash after a combo ender.

 

You totally do have time to do at least one and recover safely.  If you didn't, people could blow you up with quick get up for free.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Just whiff 2A on their wake up and block, generally holding 1 as you press the A button. If they DP, you're safe and if they grab, you should have enough frames to tech it. If they don't do either, just continue your pressure.

[chzchan]

Punishing Gauntlet Hades followup with a 2A low profile sucks now because 2A > 2C is no longer a thing. Even if they delay the followup for too long, if you do 2A5C2C, 2C will whiff because Ragna will be too high up. If you do 2A5B, 5B will whiff if they don't delay but will still land just barely if they do delay since they are closer to the ground. You have to try to get him with 2C, but that is so much harder to get out properly and he will be able to block it if he decides not to do the followup when before he would eat 2A retaliation regardless of what he did if he had no meter.

 

The little things that just make it that much harder.

[chzchan]

Anyone know how to punish Ragna doing a short dash into a super jump? Haven't figured out exactly what to do in neutral when it happens unless he actually doesn't use his air option and drops down to j.C in which I can attempt to anti-air.

This is something that I try to bring about by throwing a projectile, but it doesn't feel like I can do much about it the Ragna player doing this in response to my projectile.

If he does air gauntlet hades or air blood scythe what do you do in response? If he is spaced to cross you up with j.B, what do you do?

[Airk]

Dash under him.  All his air nonsense moves him forward and he'll fly over you and land.

[chzchan]

I actually ended up asking SKD on twitter though the question was originally for Kagura it should apply to every character. You are able to move yourself forward slightly with a short dash making it so that his j.C will not autocorrect even though you will cross under him and then punish that way. Makes sense.