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Kiba

[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi Questions and Answers Thread

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Well, presumably you could also burn a charge for j.214D, which leads to an easier combo, but might not be a good use of that resource.

 

j.D landing recovery fills me with frustration.

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How can j.214C > 623C even work?

 

@mikatsgarbage :

 

If you hit j.D, you'll end up with the recovery of j.D as you land after your j.CC. Yes, it's dumb. Yes, arcsys should have fixed this. But as it is now, you'll probably never be able to combo out of it, except if you are doing a j.214D after.

 

 

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j.214C causes a hard knockdown on grounded opponents, instead of making an emergency tech state like it does when it hits an airborne opponent. It's not long enough for 2B to connect, but it's enough time for 623C. 

 

There's fatal counter routes that use 6C>tk j.214C>5D>623C as well. It's actually a pretty nice combo part. 

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If you hit j.D, you'll end up with the recovery of j.D as you land after your j.CC. Yes, it's dumb. Yes, arcsys should have fixed this. But as it is now, you'll probably never be able to combo out of it, except if you are doing a j.214D after.

 

 

Honestly, there's a good argument for our charges to not have recovery at all, j.D or otherwise.

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I really don't see why you guys get all bent out of shape about j.D recovery. The only thing it'd do is possibly up damage a little bit off certain confirms when you don't have charge (you basically get j.CC>5CC instead of j.CC>5A>5CC midscreen, woo) and doing silly things with j.D>j.C>land>attempt to continue a blockstring would be tighter, but it's not like most people don't already respect it for some reason anyway. It's been there for 4 iterations of the game. I don't think they're going to suddenly get rid of it and it's not going to make her anything except marginally better. There's a lot of other things they could change that would improve her way more than removing landing recovery.

 

If you can't combo off of j.C or j.CC after j.D, you just have to learn to use those attacks lower at heights where you can combo off of them and at a range where you don't have to dash forward. Just adjust =X

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sounds to me like you haven't really thought about the effect it would have

 

but that's ok, i'll play rachel

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Ya got me. You'd also be able to do j.D>j.C/2B as a mixup whenever you want but 6C is about to lose a bunch of blockstun, meaning Tsu's highest leveled jump cancelable move is going to be meh so pretty much everyone in the cast would be able to disrespect the hell out of that mixup anyway. 

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i guess that's what I mean by not thinking about it.

 

Anytime you made someone block a JC you could go for a double overhead, or a triple overhead, and you could go for a low after any of those point, and the double/triple overheads would be pretty safe from a frame trap perspective. 

 

You could JD>JB on someone's wakeup for a safe jump that's also good mixup. 

 

You can jump cancel off 5a and 5b into an overhead  that while it wouldn't be as fast as 6a, would be safe against 2a and throw mashing. 

 

You could use it to delay landing, to avoid anti-airs.. something very strong when used by lambda/relius/litchi/whatever, but something that's almost dead with tsubaki because of the landing recovery penalty

 

Much better reward off JD > air dash.. something which is pretty strong by itself but can never get any kind of decent combo from, or risk getting punished if they block it...

 

Anytime you ever get hit by a move during landing recovery, you could DP that instead. 

 

Shit, it would change so much. But yeah, if you just try to use it off 6c it might not help much. 

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j.214C causes a hard knockdown on grounded opponents, instead of making an emergency tech state like it does when it hits an airborne opponent. It's not long enough for 2B to connect, but it's enough time for 623C. 

 

There's fatal counter routes that use 6C>tk j.214C>5D>623C as well. It's actually a pretty nice combo part. 

I didn't know that, thank you

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So I just picked up BBCP last week as my first real Fighting game I want to actually learn and get into (I've played so many things in the past but I have the basics down), and I've been working on combos with Tsubaki and I noticed these charge cancels.

 

Would anyone be willing to explain exactly how one does these? I looked in the Strategy guide but didn't see exactly how to do them.

 

I appreciate it!

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So I just picked up BBCP last week as my first real Fighting game I want to actually learn and get into (I've played so many things in the past but I have the basics down), and I've been working on combos with Tsubaki and I noticed these charge cancels.

 

Would anyone be willing to explain exactly how one does these? I looked in the Strategy guide but didn't see exactly how to do them.

 

I appreciate it!

 

Charge cancels cancel the recovery of your attacks.

 

Charge cancelling different normals leaves you at different advantages and I've listed the frame advantage and the best options in the strategy guide (although the table has messed up my layout and I'll fix that. Also it excludes advantage from aerials).

 

You can use charge cancels to reset pressure and bait DPs, so it provides flexibility with your mixup. Moreover, it also helps to build the install gauge.

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Still no one is actually answering the question.  So here we go.

 

To 'charge cancel' a normal attack, you just push D during the animation of that normal.  So to do 5B > Charge Cancel, you would just push 5B > 5D in much the same way that you would would push 5B > 5C if you wanted to gatling to 5C. 

 

You'll see Tsubaki do her attack, and then instead of finishing the animation, or cancelling into another attack, she'll cancel into the charge animation, which will last a short while, during which your opponent will mostly be in blockstun.  Then you can act again - slightly after your opponent in most cases, but the hope is that they won't react as fast to the cancel as you do, since you knew it was coming and they didn't.   This works as long as you aren't too predictable.

 

The normals that you CAN charge cancel are: 5A, 2A, 5B, 5BB, 2B, 2BB, 5C, and 5CC. 

The normals that you SHOULD charge cancel are 5B, 5C, 5CC and maybe 5BB or 2BB.  You should never charge cancel 5A/2A/2B because this actually makes your position worse, relative to your opponent.  And remember - don't always charge cancel at the same point, or your opponent will know its coming and be able to beat you out.

 

Hopefully that is helpful.

 

Edit: Oh, and Kiba, the forum upgrade apparently busted your frame advantage table in the guide.

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Ok had to say this lol... I THINK this might be the best character thread on dustloop! I'm deciding to sub izayoi (previous main ) and main tsubaki I'm 3 days in and I can say that all of the guides are great. But what I wanted to ask is... Should I learn how to pressure with her before learning all the combo routes (more important ones)? During a match i will basically start off with 5bb and I don't realize that I am hitting the opponent, then I end up auto piloting into charge cancles, missing my opportunity to attack. Next how do i even manage to get in on characters like kagura and rachel?

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Just learn a few of the simple charge-less combos you can do depending on what move you land and then learn the corner oki combo with j.236A. Learn the 1 charge 5B/5CC > 22D > 6C > CT  corner combo because of how little resources it requires for the damage you get. Maybe learn a counter hit 1 charge mugen combo for punishment.

 

Don't focus too much on combos, though. Learning short, safe blockstrings and how to alternate them while incorporating charge cancels is way more important because all the combos are meaningless if you never get to use them. Not doing the same set of attacks in a predictable order can take some getting used to if you say that auto piloting is your problem. You should also take advantage of being able to delay follow-ups like 5CC and 5BB for use as frame traps. But, you really need to fix your auto piloting in order to implement the frame traps because it requires conditioning of your opponent to expect certain things from you. Like if you charge cancel after 5B during a simple 5A > 5B twice at the beginning of a round, you should try 5B > Delay 5BB to catch them when they try to attack you thinking you will charge cancel.

 

Get an early start on learning some frame data so you can know when it is safe to attack and which attacks you will be able to use. Also, learn where you can throw your command grab into the mix because the 2 charges it nets you are incredibly helpful.

 

Good luck subbing Izayoi, though. You're going to have an incredibly difficult time playing her.

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Thanks for the advice and my izayoi is actually pretty great lol. I win like 90% of the time I'm just switching to tsubaki because I'm bored of playing her I've been playing iz for about 4 months haha. Tsubaki just fits my playstyle more due to the fact that i use to play cammy in sf4 and catwoman in injustice. But I get what you're saying i definitely need to stop the auto piloting the problem is that izayoi had about 3 blockstrings so I could easily alternate the 3 mixing in 66 5b.

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What exactly is the plan for neutral, against someone with better normals than you? (e.g. Jin, Hakumen, Ragna)

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press 236d. if you don't have stock you will start charging instead. that's good. repeat until until 236d comes out.

 

now, you've gotten in and the goal is just to mix up with 6a/6b.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

get charge in neutral. hit them when they come to hit you. 5b/236x/3c/jB/jC are the best tools for hitting them when they want to hit you. use j236a to restrict their movement.

 

It's hard to identify a character with worse normals than Tsubaki, so really what I gave you is just roughly the gameplan against Hakumen, Jin, and Ragna.

 

You have worse normals than Nu, Mu, and Bullet too, but the gameplan is going to be different. Of course you want to be in against Nu and Mu, but since you've got worse normals, you can't just try to rush in or you'll get killed.

Bullet is a similar story. You want to use your mobility to your advantage, until you can get in. But her pokes, jabs, and antiairs are superior. It plays somewhat similarly to the zoner characters because if you let her get heat 2 life is going to be really hard.

 

every char has lots of minor adjustments that need to be made on top of general gameplan.

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Thanks for answer Airk! I've been trying to incorporate more charge cancels but it's hard when I'm still missing some simple executions. So this is a more general question. Playing online has been difficult for me. Every time I attempt to pressure or execute a combo, I feel like I'm going to miss it due to lag and end up mashing it out and have either gotten hit then comboed when I would have been safe, or I drop my combo and I lose out on damage. Is there something I can work on to make it easier to execute these? Or is it just a matter of getting over it and getting used to when to hit the buttons in certain amounts of delay? 

 

Adding on to that, is 2C Tsubaki's only Anti-air? What about options when you end up in the corner? Most videos I've seen, people DP out or jump and 214C to get away. Is there anything else I could do? 

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traditional AA beside 2c are air ja or jb if you anticipating of course with 2c as slow as it is it is an anticipating AA anyway and not something use for reactive. you can add air throw if there enough time or dp lol.

overall 2c works but if people are baiting or cross over you can use ja jb approach.

in corner situation well it depends who you are up against.

overall it is about reading gaps or block string and know where the dp gaps are or block and punish if opponent goes for a riskier overhead. or knowing where to ib and punish.

normal option counter assault, dp rc, dp 2 stock follow up, delay wake up,

well i guess there is no overall answer to when your in corner being pressured or oki but these are workable option

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Thanks for the reply! It sounds like I need to use j.B more since you can convert it a little bit into some damage.

 

in corner situation well it depends who you are up against.
 

 

The most problematic one I've had so far would probably be Azrael. Anything specific I can look for with him on when to DP?

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Yeah, as Errol said, "against a character with better normals than you" is basically "Against the entire cast";  I guess maybe Rachel and Carl have worse normals, but... :P  Yeah. The answer is "outplay them" and/or "pin them in the corner and don't let them do anything."  Welcome to Tsubaki.

 

Deadthing: There really isn't any trick to that.  You just need to spend a lot of time in training mode.  Practice your combos.  Set your training dummy to block everything and practice pressure (ideally, once you have an idea what the 'safe' avenues are).  For dealing with lag, there's no dealing with it, really, just try not to play in laggy conditions.

 

2C an anti air option (it used to be really good, now it's meh, because Tsubaki can't have nice things).  Her DP is another one, but that's more executionally difficult and unless you're doing it with them really low to the ground, the invulnerability will wear off before it makes contact.  The other anti-air option you can use, especially against people who are getting tricky to try to beat your 2C, is to jump and air throw them.

 

Corner options? DP out. Roll out if your opponent isn't paying attention.  superjump/doublejump j.214C.  Superjump airdash. find a spot in their pressure to mash out. Barrier until they are pushed back.  Counter assault.  None of those are great choices, but one of them is almost always going to work, it's just a question of picking the right one.

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Thanks for the reply! It sounds like I need to use j.B more since you can convert it a little bit into some damage.

 

 

The most problematic one I've had so far would probably be Azrael. Anything specific I can look for with him on when to DP?

Unfortunately I don't have enough match up experience va azrael

Better to refer to the match up thread or go to the tsubaki vid section and watch tsubaki vs azrael matches to see what they are doing

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So I've been trying this combo: (corner) 5CC > 22D > 6C > CT > 6BB > [4]6D > 236D > Dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B

And my opponent always recovers before 236B hits them, am I not dashing correctly?

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