[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Q&A Thread

[EXonestar]

Sorry to ask this kinda "anti valk" question but

In Extend Valks wolf pressure seems quite tight but had some holes in it big enough to maybe 2a or DP him out of if the valk was too aggressive.

In CP I've been having trouble dealing with his new wolf pressure consisting of [w]5c and [w]J.5C.

I was told you can instant block the [W]5c in hopes of poking him out because they do any other normal but i've either been hit clean or traded CH's with the valk.

Is his CP version of wolf pressure more seamless and safer with something i heard about called "wolf canceling" i believe it was.

I'm finding it very difficult to deal with him not than in the past.

B4 anyone asks. I use Litchi and do try to play the match up with good spacing and trying to use the staff to knock him out of wolf mode but valk's movement around my staff make him extremely difficult to catch or poke. Especially with the looming threat of him just Dashing at me full speed or the fear of jumping due to him having 100% advantage with 5b and command grab gimmicks that catch me because I can escape from the wolf.

My question is basically how would one go about dealing with wolf pressure?

Where is the Hole in the pressure or which normals should I be instant blocking to have a chance of escaping without having to counter assault > spam dp's which he'll probably 4D or 7D to avoid or just command grab me because i can't push him out. Most of my matches end with my in DANGER because valks won't let me breathe.

I just wish to know how to deal with such a mobile character. I don't even feel this stressed vs Tao because i know she's worse but. she can be pushed away.

I apologize for the wall of text. If anyone can help me, that'll be greatly appreciated.

[Magaki]

w5C is level 3 like w5B. If the Valk uses a brJA (Instant wjA), it will beat mashing. You have enough frames to DP however.

wjC is godlike. Especially as a meaty. Your only choice here is to block or DP again.

Anyway, Valk's pressure is so reliable that he's almost guaranteed to get a hitconfirm if the opponent starts blocking and that's why it's his main strategy. The best way to beat Valk is to predict him in neutral in order to starts pressuring. First, observe carefully your opponent and the ways he uses to move around. w66D (huge leap he does) and wj236A high in the air are some extremely useful way to get in but they both get beaten if you predict it.

As for dealing with his wolf pressure, you should be able to beat his 4D/7D attempt while pressuring with a dash 5A. 5A can beat w5C>6D>wjA if the Valkenhayn doesn't know how to use brJA or isn't fast enough. But the point is, it's already too late if you start blocking generally because unless the Valkenhayn always repeats the same blockstrings, it will hardly work. Even if you mash 5A/2A like there is no tomorrow, he can still do for example jump cancel>wj214A and get a CH.

Just focus on neutral game to win: Predict his movement and cover space accordingly. That's because of how well she can do that that Valkenhayn got troubles against Litchi.

[EXonestar]

So they really buffed up his Wolf pressure once the opponent is blocking.

That's extremely Godlike. Thanks though. I've got an extremely dangerous valkenhayn player that says similar things but wanted to see if anyone in the valk section would be able to shine more light on it.

Even though people say Litchi > Valk - his mobility and ability really makes it hard. Simply launching the staff or even 2a/5a'ing at certain times can get you kicked. I'm finding it extremely difficult. Its gotten to a point where I try to Block his wolf mix up until he runs out of wolf meter or goes back in to Human form. But even then.....That's a mission.

If there's any other information you or anyone can share with me - that'll be much appreciated. Thanks again Magaki. I would like some more valk experience so i'll rinse out GG's till I understand it more.

[Magaki]

Well, if you think about Valkenhayn's toughest matchups, neutral game is pretty much the most important factor 90% of the time. It's really common to try to get in and end up eating a random hit that you never saw coming with Valkenhayn. If the opponent got enough time to combo afterwards, this is even worse.

Point is, I'm not surprised your opponent thought and gave the same opinion because this is arguably the biggest threat for Valk. However, that's probably something you will have an easier time understanding by having more matches. Like I said before, every Valk players tend to like one approach rather than the other so I'm certain that you will find some patterns after a while. You can also decide to simply keep playing tag with him. This video is a pretty good example of how troublesome it is for Valk to deal with this kind of strategy (Please ignore the last round and focus on the first and second one).

Here are some datas that might help you:

-The reason why w66D and wj236A are good ways to get in is because they use a minimal amount of wolf gauge which allows the Valk player to have more than enough to bait anything afterwards. Those are used a lot at long range because Valkenhayn can easily get punished in the air at mid or close range. If he's above your head while doing so, I strongly suggest to run away because you will be either crossed-up/fake crossed-up or a wj214A/B will be used if he predicts you mashing/using a DP. And if he does cross you up, you will get mixed up by a high, a low or the command grab.

-w5C is a relatively good poke with nice damage. However, his options afterwards aren't that safe. After a w5C, the only option left is a special cancel which will obviously be the command dash. Whether it is a brJA, a low or the command grab that will follow, all of those options got a few frame gaps that is more than enough for you to DP. It won't probably work that much but it will make your opponent on his toes and use sometimes a 4DC or 7DC which is more than enough to escape pressure.

-I would heavily suggest to never use chicken blocking if Valkenhayn is still pressuring in wolf mode. However, if he does anything with 4D/7D or go back to human mode to keep pressuring, you should have enough time to chicken block and escape pressure. Be really careful however of one move: w5B. You don't want to block that in the air.

If you block w5B, it's quite possible that you will be in blockstun for a while which allows him to reset pressure quite easily. If you're really high, he can do tk command grab with a slight delay and not get a purple throw. Otherwise, it's quite easy to do w5B>3D>w236C which will give him back all his wolf gauge and allow him to keep pressuring.

I don't know any good Litchi player close to my area but we will soon have a tournament nearby. The Litchi matchup is also something that I need to experiment more and I'll make sure to write something in the matchup section once I'll understand it more.

[callmechalk]

The combo I am trying to work on is

Starting in wolf form:

5A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > h[5B > 2C] > j.D > j.A > j.A > j.A > j.C > j.236A > j.236B > 6D > j.D > h[j.C] [2513 DMG, 18 HG]

when I get to j.A > j.A > j.A. > j.C > j.236A the character gets to high to be hit by j.236A. I can occasionally hit with 236B instead of using 236A there. but I'm assuming I cannot finish with 6D > j.D h[j.C] if I start with 236B wolf cannon? Should I be delaying the j.A's? or maybe the j.C? any tips on this combo?

[Dreize]

My advice would be to not use that combo. But if you really want to, I'd highly suggest swapping the h[5B > 2C] for h[5B > 5C] since h[5B > 2C] is not universal. Also, after the h[5C] do a super jump w[j.A] as opposed to a regular [j.A], that way the w[j.236A > j.236B] will properly connect. And to clear up your suspicions, you can still finish with 6D > j.D > h[j.C] even after a single w[j.236B] cannon.

So your combo should look like: 5A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > h[5B > 5C] > sj.D > j.A > j.A > j.A > j.C > j.236A > j.236B > 6D > j.D > h[j.C]

Here's a slightly better alternative: 5A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > h[5B > 5C] > j.A > j.C > dj.C > j.236A > j.236B > 6D > j.D > h[j.C]

Good luck, and if you have any other questions feel free to ask them.

[EXonestar]

Well, if you think about Valkenhayn's toughest matchups, neutral game is pretty much the most important factor 90% of the time. It's really common to try to get in and end up eating a random hit that you never saw coming with Valkenhayn. If the opponent got enough time to combo afterwards, this is even worse.

Point is, I'm not surprised your opponent thought and gave the same opinion because this is arguably the biggest threat for Valk. However, that's probably something you will have an easier time understanding by having more matches. Like I said before, every Valk players tend to like one approach rather than the other so I'm certain that you will find some patterns after a while. You can also decide to simply keep playing tag with him. This video is a pretty good example of how troublesome it is for Valk to deal with this kind of strategy (Please ignore the last round and focus on the first and second one).

Here are some datas that might help you:

-The reason why w66D and wj236A are good ways to get in is because they use a minimal amount of wolf gauge which allows the Valk player to have more than enough to bait anything afterwards. Those are used a lot at long range because Valkenhayn can easily get punished in the air at mid or close range. If he's above your head while doing so, I strongly suggest to run away because you will be either crossed-up/fake crossed-up or a wj214A/B will be used if he predicts you mashing/using a DP. And if he does cross you up, you will get mixed up by a high, a low or the command grab.

-w5C is a relatively good poke with nice damage. However, his options afterwards aren't that safe. After a w5C, the only option left is a special cancel which will obviously be the command dash. Whether it is a brJA, a low or the command grab that will follow, all of those options got a few frame gaps that is more than enough for you to DP. It won't probably work that much but it will make your opponent on his toes and use sometimes a 4DC or 7DC which is more than enough to escape pressure.

-I would heavily suggest to never use chicken blocking if Valkenhayn is still pressuring in wolf mode. However, if he does anything with 4D/7D or go back to human mode to keep pressuring, you should have enough time to chicken block and escape pressure. Be really careful however of one move: w5B. You don't want to block that in the air.

If you block w5B, it's quite possible that you will be in blockstun for a while which allows him to reset pressure quite easily. If you're really high, he can do tk command grab with a slight delay and not get a purple throw. Otherwise, it's quite easy to do w5B>3D>w236C which will give him back all his wolf gauge and allow him to keep pressuring.

I don't know any good Litchi player close to my area but we will soon have a tournament nearby. The Litchi matchup is also something that I need to experiment more and I'll make sure to write something in the matchup section once I'll understand it more.

I relation to his pressure my friend has learned to do something called "wolf break ". can you explain this in detail for me because he said it makes it harder for people to do anything during valk's pressure. is this like a wolf stance change? similar to like "Aegis" (P4A) ?

I got this msg now so i'm gona start researching the valk matchup more - thank for the video - i'm going to analyse it now.

[Dreize]

It's not really a stance change. The simplest way to define the wolf brake would probably be "Valkenhayn has the ability to essentially pause/stop during a wolf command dash, this is better known as the wolf brake as Valkenhayn is basically "braking" during a command dash." The input for the wolf brake in Extend was w[5C/j.C] during either rasen wolf or geschwind wolf (his two forms of wolf command dashes).

Here is a video for visual reference. Please note that this is Extend and the notation for the wolf brake has changed in CP, but the concept is still the same. Take a look at 35 seconds in, the Valkenhayn player does 5A > 5B > 5C > 236A > 7D > w[j.C] (this is the wolf break) > j.D. The purpose of the wolf break in that instance was to stop during his 7D command dash and transform back into human mode in order to keep himself relatively safe.

However, the wolf brake has many other uses. For instance, a Valkenhayn player can input w[5C > 5C (this is the wolf brake) > j.A] (this must be done extremely quickly) in order to get an instant overhead w[j.A]. What he is doing is using a wolf command dash (w[5C]) and then immediately cancelling out of the wolf command dashes start-up with the wolf brake (w[5C]) in order to make the w[j.A] come out faster than it normally would off of a regular w[5C] command dash without the brake. The instant overhead is a bit executionally demanding so you'll mostly see it during high-levels of play. But to be perfectly honest with you, the w[j.A] IOH shouldn't even be in the game if you ask me; it should have been taken out in CP (but for some reason it wasn't, and the devs know it since it's even in one of his challenge mode commands now). At any rate, it's even harder to perform in CP due to the command change.

Valkenhayn players can also use the wolf brake during pressure. Take for example, w[5A > 5A > 5A > 5C > 5C (this is the wolf brake) > 5A]. What the player is doing in this instance is using three w[5A] lows, then using a command dash, then using the brake in order to land and go into another low w[5A]. So he's basically tricking you with the command dash and making you think that he is going to go high with w[j.A] but instead he uses the brake to land and go into another low w[5A].

Valkenhayn players can also use the wolf brake to optimize their wolf movement and cancel out of geschwind wolf at certain points.

Up until now I've been using Extend examples/notation, but the concept is exactly the same in CP.

In CP he can actually optimize certain combos with the Wolf Sweep Loop (which requires the usage of the wolf brake) but it's pretty hard to do.

And now, off of certain starters such as a regular 236B~236B he NEEDS the wolf break to properly combo off of it as opposed to Extend wherein he didn't.

He can also do things such as w[5C > 1D > 4C > 5C] xN wherein he's using the wolf break to throw out two low w[5C]'s relatively quickly in blockstrings, plus the 2nd w[5C] will combo into the 1st w[5C] if the first w[5C] actually hits (this is CP notation, by the way, and coincidentally it is also the Wolf Sweep Loop).

Anywho, I think that I've covered quite a bit. If you have any questions/concerns feel free to ask.

[Magaki]

I think Dreize probably explained the different uses for the wolf brake even better than me.

But to be perfectly honest with you, the w[j.A] IOH shouldn't even be in the game if you ask me; it should have been taken out in CP (but for some reason it wasn't, and the devs know it since it's even in one of his challenge mode commands now). At any rate, it's even harder to perform in CP due to the command change.

I would rather think that ASW simply allowed it because they consider that Valkenhayn's pressure should be almost impossible to escape. brJA is probably the best high level tool he got in his arsenal because of its speed but in a sense it's completely cheap indeed. The other instant overhead Valkenhayn got is rising jC but he needs a rapid to combo after it.

If we consider it from another point of view, brJA would be quite hard to balance. First and easiest thing that would come to mind is to give minimal height to wjA but that would kill most w5C combos same for the most basic pressure tool he got 6D>wjA.

Giving a minimal height to braking would also seriously hinder 4D and a bunch of other tactics to dodge.

So yeah, removing brJA without nerfing considerably Valk doesn't seem that easy.

I strongly disagree with brJA being harder though. If you execute it raw, 1DCA should be quite hard indeed.

However, like Shyn pointed out before, 6D>4CA in a blockstring after a w5B or w5C for example is really easy to do. I managed to pull it off successfully after only a few minutes of training when it took me a MUCH longer time in Extend.

[EXonestar]

The fact that its almost impossible to escape makes its so bad.

Its a mission to get to him - and fight him - then all of a sudden he's in and doesn't get out

DP'ing is a risk - even with his reduced dmg. I do say its fair they made him harder to use because if you make a character with such godlike pressure easy to use, we'll have a dangerous problem lol imo

Valk's i've seen so far have been adjusting to him well. He looks awesome overall though. Munching people as usual lol

[Shyn]

But to be perfectly honest with you, the w[j.A] IOH shouldn't even be in the game if you ask me; it should have been taken out in CP (but for some reason it wasn't, and the devs know it since it's even in one of his challenge mode commands now). At any rate, it's even harder to perform in CP due to the command change.

You stop with that talk! :P

But seriously, a lot of the people I play with regularly (eg. Spark) can block wj.C pretty easily. It really is not nearly as good as the wj.A one.

[EXonestar]

Wj.C will probably become easier to see over time. Its usually quite confusing because after so many people have been fighting valk in the pass - they'll need some time to adjust. I.e. Spark seems to be perfectly fine with it lol but i expect nothing less from that Iron Godlike Wall of defense he shrouds himself in.

[Dreize]

You stop with that talk! :P

But seriously, a lot of the people I play with regularly (eg. Spark) can block wj.C pretty easily. It really is not nearly as good as the wj.A one.

You know it's true Shyn! >.<

w[j.C] is definitely react-able, but it's still an amazing wolf normal. Plus it's like his best starter in wolf form. In terms of mix-up potential I don't think that any new wolf normal is ever going to top w[j.A] though.

If we consider it from another point of view, brJA would be quite hard to balance. First and easiest thing that would come to mind is to give minimal height to wjA but that would kill most w5C combos same for the most basic pressure tool he got 6D>wjA.

Giving a minimal height to braking would also seriously hinder 4D and a bunch of other tactics to dodge.

So yeah, removing brJA without nerfing considerably Valk doesn't seem that easy.

I strongly disagree with brJA being harder though. If you execute it raw, 1DCA should be quite hard indeed.

However, like Shyn pointed out before, 6D>4CA in a blockstring after a w5B or w5C for example is really easy to do. I managed to pull it off successfully after only a few minutes of training when it took me a MUCH longer time in Extend.

I'm sure that it's possible. Probably something along the lines of not allowing him to wolf brake a command dash during it's start-up. Whatever the case, I don't see how it would break him. Obviously a minimum height on w[j.A] would be silly but they shouldn't need to go that far.

As for the w[j.A] IOH being harder, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that it's easier. It's pretty much the same thing aside from the fact that we now must use 2 buttons as opposed to 1 and directional inputs.

Even in Extend it was easier off of w[5A]/w[5B], that has not changed. I honestly don't think that any argument could be contrived in favor of the wolf brake being easier in CP that doesn't start with "Well, for me personally...".

I just tested 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > h[5B > 2C > 236C] and it works on Kagura as well.

Thanks Kaiser. Added him to the list.

[Magaki]

Yeah, you're right here Dreize. It's pretty much a question of personal preference at this point.

But seriously, a lot of the people I play with regularly (eg. Spark) can block wj.C pretty easily. It really is not nearly as good as the wj.A one.

Wait, really ? If you add the jump startup, it means that it's 4+15 frames which is the same as Jin's 6A. Is the animation THAT obvious or did they predict it ? Like they were expecting a brJA or something like that and blocked it ?

And what about using it as a meaty ? Do they block it easily too ?

[Grublet]

I don't think wj.C is reactable to. 15 frame start up is the same speed as Dudley's overhead in SF4 and people can't block that on reaction.

[EXonestar]

It is reactable. Its just something we as players have to get used to. I see people get hit by it but thats due to the game still being fresh. Give it a while and people will feel a tiny bit more used to it. As for the instant over head with wj.a that wil still be the best hands down. Thats been biting players since the dawn of time... thats also harder to react to withe wolf brake in to w5.c since w5.a is no longer a low

[Kiba]

I don't think wj.C is reactable to. 15 frame start up is the same speed as Dudley's overhead in SF4 and people can't block that on reaction.

:|

[EXonestar]

I don't think wj.C is reactable to. 15 frame start up

Think again :I

There's a few 100s 1000s of videos and players that'll say otherwise from experience .-.

[Grublet]

Think again :I

There's a few 100s 1000s of videos and players that'll say otherwise from experience .-.

I've also seen videos of people getting hit by wj.C crouching. I was wrong when I said unreactable to. I just think it would be hard to block a move that fast consistently.

[Magaki]

It is reactable. Its just something we as players have to get used to. I see people get hit by it but thats due to the game still being fresh. Give it a while and people will feel a tiny bit more used to it. As for the instant over head with wj.a that wil still be the best hands down. Thats been biting players since the dawn of time... thats also harder to react to withe wolf brake in to w5.c since w5.a is no longer a low

Yeah, now that I think about it, the animation is quite obvious indeed. The fact that it's fast makes it indeed hard to react to if you're not used to it.

I thought you couldn't react to it because of Jin's 6A. A lot of people said that it was too fast on reaction so the best bet was to predict it. But then again, I never properly trained against Jin's blockstrings so I don't really know if those claims are true.

[EXonestar]

Best to spam matches vs jin/valk to get used to it - it'll become a norm.

[Kiba]

I thought you couldn't react to it because of Jin's 6A. A lot of people said that it was too fast on reaction so the best bet was to predict it. But then again, I never properly trained against Jin's blockstrings so I don't really know if those claims are true.

It's not true...

Example: I can block that shit on reaction, even online. Bang's 5C is 1f faster than Jin's and yet I can block that on reaction. No one misinterpret what I'm saying though, I'm not saying I block it all the time. I'm just making the point that it can be blocked on reaction.

[C0R]

If you're hawkeyeing a mixup in a tense situation even really fast overheads and be blocked with a positive rate of success. I'll commonly block Rachel mixup from time to time. In black blind situations where you're being forced to make several defensive decisions to muddle your blocking ability however, anything under 20f~ isn't reliably defendable.

Also kiba I believe Bang's overhead only hits at fastest speed against airbourne or standing opponents, against crouchers (so in overhead situations) I think it's 23?

[Kiba]

Oh yeah you're right 'bout that. Thanks!

[Magaki]

Interesting . . .

Thanks for the datas guys.