[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[RentalBlackout]

Hey I was wondering about the video, is he demoing on differing characters to show that they can be used on everyone? Or because they are only effective on some? Because I'm practicing on Jin, and no. 2 is giving me trouble. forward grab > Hornet > H. Chaser > j.C > ad > (delayed) j.C > Valiant > 5B > TCL > 3D

I'm having a hard time connecting Valiant with a 5B.

I'm not too sure of the details but usually if you can't connect with 5B, just use 5A instead.

[Warhound]

Yeah, see problem is after I'm done with the Hornet Chaser > j.C > ad > j.C > Valiant, I'm too far away to land a 5A, and obviously the recovery on Valiant is too obnoxiously long to throw out a 5B in time unless they were at the absolute top of Valiant's hurtbox.

[Maho]

Actually in this combo, it's easier to use 5B than 5A, due to throw being an S starter, the hitstun deterioration makes it hard to land 5A into TCL there, you really need to do the combo as fast as possible to get this, while using 5B gives you more time. What I do is delay the 214D to hit low, then try to hit the second jC as late as possible, this way you should hit the opponent around Azrael knee with the Valiant, then the 5B connects easely.

[RentalBlackout]

Actually in this combo, it's easier to use 5B than 5A, due to throw being an S starter, the hitstun deterioration makes it hard to land 5A into TCL there, you really need to do the combo as fast as possible to get this, while using 5B gives you more time. What I do is delay the 214D to hit low, then try to hit the second jC as late as possible, this way you should hit the opponent around Azrael knee with the Valiant, then the 5B connects easely.

Yeah this seems to solve the issue pretty consistently. I think I was thinking about some other combo where sometimes 5B just isn't possible after valiant(but it's more of a timing issue than anything). Sometimes they fall too quickly due to doing valiant too late(like in airborne 5B>2C>Valiant>5A/5B).

[Kikuichimonji]

I saw a post by someone that broke down how many frames gap was in each of Azrael's chains, but I couldn't find it again. Specifically, I'm trying to see if chained 5A always has a gap, because it did when I tested. Thanks.

[Maho]

It's in the strategy guide, scroll down a bit and look for "pressure strings".

[LordSpectreX]

Pretty sure it's not accurate, since 5B>5BB has a gap even on regular block. As does 2A>2B.

 

Edit:

 

In fact, the gaps are often pretty huge. Ragna can ID out of 2A>2B even on BARRIER block. Though it's very tight at that point.

 

On normal block, I find almost everything is DP outable off. Even 5A>5A. It'd be easier to say what DOESNT have a gap.

 

x > Gustaf/Tiger

2A>5A

5A/2A > TRM

 

 

But yeah the info in that section is completely wrong. I even forgot it existed.

[RentalBlackout]

I reckon it's because that post did not consider(or was made very early when Azrael was just released) how his gatlings had delayed links. That post probably assumed he had normal revolver action. If you wanna find out yourself I guess you'll have to read the next part where it shows how fast can you revolver action a certain move.
 
The revolver action for 5A is at 15 frames and that it has a blockstun of 13 frames. That post earlier assumed that the revolver action for 5A was at the 6th frame, so that's a pretty large difference(7 frames of difference). According to this then, 5A>5A is actually +0 in between(instead of +7). So yeah I guess it can be DP'd on normal block if you gatling it a frame late(lol), unless I'm messing something up here.
 
And as Spectre said, 2A>2B can indeed be DP'd even on barrier block. The inaccurate post said it was +1 in between, but by right it's -2 in between. On barrier block that would be -1, so yeah it is possible to DP through it(though very tight).
 
Same goes for 5B, it's revolver action is on the 16F(whereas it was thought earlier to be at the 9th frame), so again that's 7 frames of difference. So 5B>5BB is really -4 in between.
 
EDIT: If you wanna use that list, then basically just subtract the number of frames by the number listed to see the accurate one.

5A(-7)

5B(-7)
5C(Unchanged for 6C, -8)
2A(-3)
2B(-10)
2C(-13)
6B(-12)

 

So for example that post said 5A>5B is +4. Just subtract 4 with 7 and you'll get -3, which should be the proper one.
These don't apply for special cancels, special cancels are left unchanged.

Again I could be missing something here.

EDIT: 5BB>5D is unchanged as well(thanks Spectre!)

EDIT2: 5BB has normal Revolver Action

[LordSpectreX]

Some drives move differ as well. 5BB>5D is correct as it's a cancel, but 2B>5D is a late gatling. I'll have to mess around with it later.

[RentalBlackout]

Sometimes while doing VC combos, the corner variant, I find myself whiffing the 5B/6B. This is probably due to the height at which I enter VC from, but I'm finding it difficult to find a comfortable height that would guarantee I won't drop it, at what height do you guys find it reliable?

[Verimeloni]

Clean grounded Valiant hit, on aerial opponents you can hold D down slightly longer to allow them to drop closer to the ground.

[zankoku]

So, specifically on Hakumen and Rachel, if Azrael gets the double-weakpoint set, he can perform a raw unblockable BHS as long as they don't have Overdrive or Astral Heat.

Neither of these characters have an action under the 4 frames of post-flash startup of BHS (short of Overdrive and Astral Heat).

 

At a distance of one "Lessons Square" (roughly 3/4 screen) or closer, Black Hawk Stinger will catch all post-flash jump startups. This means that, post-flash, only true reversals and attacks faster than 4f (Tager 360A) are able to punish a raw Black Hawk Stinger.

 

All other characters have a valid option at 50 Heat or less, which is the only time this would be more relevant than forcing unblockable with a normal into BHS.

[kekken3]

Wouldn't we have to consider backdash with Rachel? I've been using raw BHS against Hakumen and it's awesome, but i never tried it against anyone else, as even the worst backdash has enough inv. frames to evade BHS's 3 active frames. Rachel's backdash inv. is listed as 1-7, so she shoud always able to escape from BHS after super freeze.

Haven't tested, but maybe it'd be worth a gamble against those with the least inv. frames (1-5) and without meterless inv. moves. Going by frame data on the wiki, they shoud get hit unless they manage to finish the backdash input after the super freeze ended, as buffering it during the stop would make the invincibility end while BHS is still in its active frames. Nu and Terumi seem valid targets. Maybe staffles Litch, human Valk, Izayoi, Hazama (cmd. throw?), Amane (stance inv?)?

[zankoku]

Ah, good point. Forgot to test against backdash. :x

 

Oh well. Still works on Hakumen, then.

[Warhound]

Poor Hakumen ;/

[Kakimori]

Hey, new (3-day-old) Azrael here.  I read the Strategy Guide, Overview, and Combo pages (you guys are awesome!) but I still have a few questions.

 

1. When would you use 6A?  Because of the guard point it feels like it would be useful after a blocked 5BB but faster characters just mash 2A so it would get caught out anyway.  I never really use it unless I just feel like pressing a different button.

2. 2B > 5D seems awesome, but what can I get off a raw 5D midscreen meterless?  Just TCL?

3. 2C > 6D > STUFF also seems good, but because you basically have to input the 6D instantly after 2C to land, there isn't time to hit confirm.  Is this therefore a bad idea?

4. How do you usually combo into your Valiant/Bunker?

5. After a LW Bunker, what's your go-to combo?  I.E., do you prefer j.2C or j.D?

6. Will 2C frustrate a counter-heavy Hakumen?  (I can't remember if his counters still affect projectiles.  Obviously it's a bad idea as an AA against him.)

7. Given that 3D/6D are so slow, when is a good time to use them?  I've taken to using 5C > 3D as one of my mixups after a crossup j.B, blocked or not, but I wish I could incorporate these two moves into my gameplay more.

8. What in god's name can Azrael do to Taokaka?

 

Thanks to anyone who reads my wall of text… >_>

 

Also sweet mother of mercy Tager and Nu are stressful

[Warhound]

I'm not an expert, but I have the theory of how to use Azrael down pretty well. Responses in RED!!!!

 

Hey, new (3-day-old) Azrael here.  I read the Strategy Guide, Overview, and Combo pages (you guys are awesome!) but I still have a few questions.

 

1. When would you use 6A?  Because of the guard point it feels like it would be useful after a blocked 5BB but faster characters just mash 2A so it would get caught out anyway.  I never really use it unless I just feel like pressing a different button. When to use 6A....it's weird. Basically it's good to throw out during pressure when someone like Ragna feels like throwing out his god kick or 5C. This isn't a fix all to pressure, as he also has a very good 2B to start pressure with, which I believe 6A doesn't have invul against. Someone else might wanna clear this up, but I use it to suff stupid charge in neutral attacks.

2. 2B > 5D seems awesome, but what can I get off a raw 5D midscreen meterless?  Just TCL?

Midscreen? Yeah pretty much, the hitstun off of a raw UW 5D doesn't grant you as much time as you'd think. Just like LW 2D.

3. 2C > 6D > STUFF also seems good, but because you basically have to input the 6D instantly after 2C to land, there isn't time to hit confirm.  Is this therefore a bad idea?

2C > 6D isn't as tight a timing as you think. Eventually you'll get to a point where the opponent blocks a 2C and you'll be like: "Oh shit, better hold back and throw a 5C or gustav out". But sometimes I follow it up anyways, and it catches people from time to time.

4. How do you usually combo into your Valiant/Bunker?

- Kinda depends where you are. If in the corner and UW applied, you can just 5B > 2C > 2B > TC > Valiant > whatever follow up Valiant combo

- Midscreen, generally any time you hit them with a 236C while they are in the air, you are usually a go to hit with TC > Valiant.

- If you have the meter, and you don't think they will busrt (or can't) you can hit them with a TCL on the ground > RC > 66 > 2367D (The 7 is to cancel your dash to do Valiant).

- Also a good one is when you hit someone with your 2C as an AA, and throw out 6D, (which will hit the top height of 6D's vert range) and will send them flying high enough in order to charge up Valiant and hit them with it. Best part is, you don't need an UW to combo afterwards.

5. After a LW Bunker, what's your go-to combo?  I.E., do you prefer j.2C or j.D?

Eeeeh tough to say, I hardly ever get to combo into it. But I like to go for a double weakpoint combo if the spacing is right. So [LW] Hornet > H Chaser > j.C > ad > j.C > Valiant > 5A > TCL > 3D.

6. Will 2C frustrate a counter-heavy Hakumen?  (I can't remember if his counters still affect projectiles.  Obviously it's a bad idea as an AA against him.)

If you are at the edge of 2C it probably won't matter. But as a rule of thumb, counter happy Hakus will just throw out and hold 5D, to which you can just dash in throw, or crush their ankles with 3D or 3C for some serious hurt.

7. Given that 3D/6D are so slow, when is a good time to use them?  I've taken to using 5C > 3D as one of my mixups after a crossup j.B, blocked or not, but I wish I could incorporate these two moves into my gameplay more.

Oddly enough, I use 3D as an oki, because opponents tend to roll tech away A LOT, and you'd be surprised how often it catches them. 3C I tend to throw out when I'm at a distance in which it's tough to get punished. So if I hit, great! 22C and combo. If not, okay, back to neutral and footsies.

8. What in god's name can Azrael do to Taokaka?

Yet to fight one. But don't feel bad, no one can beat Tao apparently, she's at the top of her game in this version.

Thanks to anyone who reads my wall of text… >_>

 

Also sweet mother of mercy Tager and Nu are stressful

They certainly are. Nu is to be handled like anyone other zoner, patience and good reads. Stay on top of the bitch once you get in, like stink on shit, seriously.

 

Tager......sigh...man I hate fighting him. There's some gimmicks I use to make the fight easier and it all depends on what kind of Tager they are. Good? Or continously spin the control stick and hope a gap in your pressure opens for a throw. If throw happy, 6C and, if timed well 5D sends Az in the air, and nulls throws. Other than that, dash crossup every now and again and just don't stick on him too hard unless he can't deal with you. Also backdash is your friend in this matchup, seriously it pisses off Tagers to no end.

 

I hope those helped. Take them with a grain of salt, I'm sure vet Az's will come in and tear me a new one soon enough.

[RentalBlackout]

Warhound pretty much answered your questions quite well. Some things to add though.

1. You can use it to stuff DPs on wakeup, or also as a meaty. Though you can't do both at the same time, the timing's different(do it earlier as a meaty, later to stuff DPs).
2. You can add in 2B before TCL. There's more options on CH(weakpoint or not).
5. Other than the double weakpoint combo(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKms8y7kGw8&t=40s), it's best to go into the j.C X3>j.2C>(5B)>j/hj.B>j.C>j.D unless the combo has gone on for very long and you need to end it, in that case j.D(doesn't happen too often though)
7. Even though it's slow, try putting in 3D/6D earlier in your blockstrings sparingly, you'll be surprised how often they don't suspect it. If you have 'conditioned' them to go through a blockstring a lot, they'll be expecting you to go through the whole blockstring, so you can be unpredictable with it. I've gotten away with 5B>3D even though it has a very large gap in between. Heck you can even do crossup j.B(blocked)>6D/3D straight up and change things up if they think you're gonna do 5C first. If the character you're against has no good defensive options on wakeup, you can also dash>6D/3D after a knockdown.
8. Taokaka has gotten some nerfs, but she still can be a little bit hard to get around(especially if you're not experienced with the match up). Long story short you gotta get a hit it somehow through good neutral play and good zoning(5B/6B/2C/j.B). She has not a lot of meterless defensive options so once you get a knockdown you get to play your own game and it doesn't take that many opportunities as she has the lowest health in the game and we have one of the highest average damage.

As with any character you have trouble with, find out what they can do and what you can do in that situation. It helps to look at their Revolver Action tables or learn a little on their own game(you can even try playing them to get a better understanding) Find out what's safe and what's not safe. It really pays to watch how better players handle the match ups from videos and try to see why they did what they did in specific situations. Azrael doesn't really have many bad match ups, he only has bad match ups with Hazama, Carl, and possibly Kokonoe(though with Kokonoe it might be even as well) according to Dogura. We do have a lot of somewhat frustrating match ups but I believe they are still even, or even advantageous in some cases.

[Verimeloni]

For 2B > 5D I'd rather recommend > 2C > 6D/3D for a new weakpoint, unless you're near corner and can do a followup aerial to TCL or have 50 heat to finish your opponent with BHS.

 

Basic Hornet combo: [LW] 214D > j.C x 2-3 > j.2C > TCL > 3D or (5B >) 2C > 5B > aerial if in corner.

or

[50%][LW] 214D > j.C x 3 > (don't jump cancel) j.D > RC > B+C > 2A > TCL > 3D, around 5k. Good for pissing off grab happy Jins or Terumis, don't abuse in tourneys.

 

 

Azrael doesn't really have many bad match ups, he only has bad match ups with Hazama, Carl, and possibly Kokonoe(though with Kokonoe it might be even as well) according to Dogura. We do have a lot of somewhat frustrating match ups but I believe they are still even, or even advantageous in some cases.

 

I'd say Azrael/Kokonoe is even, Azrael/Mu is bad.

[Warhound]

Az really just kind strikes even most of the time, or gets dominated by those with good zoning power/really good neutral. I've never fought anyone as Az and felt "Aw man, I'mma stomp dis bitch character in da ground."

[Sophisticat]

Hai guyz!

 

I'd be interested in picking up Azrael. Any tips/advice to get going?

[Warhound]

Hai guyz!

 

I'd be interested in picking up Azrael. Any tips/advice to get going?

 

WOOOOOAH Sophisticat?!

 

Well, I guess some starting tips would be:

- He's got several moves that are plus on block. His jab is amazing, close up, 5B is plus, and so is Gustav (+1) to be exact. But if they IB it, they can punish with a jab of their own.

- Az works on a lot of late gatlings, and as such, he has holes in his pressure for anyone with a nice DP to exploit, watch out. 

- Start getting used to 236C > 46C > 6C (or TCL) now, you will be doing it constantly, it's a part of nearly all of his combos. It still messes with me tbh, especially when starting from 2B for some reason.

- Understand weakpoints, and what your options are when you have them applied. Like say, you have an [uW] applied, during pressure you can now go for his really fast 5D in the middle of a block string and get some decent damage off of it. Or, you can hit them with his very standard 5B > 2C > 6D and because the opponent had an [uW] applied, they ground bounce, so you can now continue with > TCL > 3D. Ending the combo with some corner carry and a shiny new [LW].

- Experience his wonky neutral game. Despite what people say, Az isn't just a mash whatever and win character. He requires thought, and can really get stuffed by people with good neutral (Ragna and Jin) or get pinned down by zoners (Mu most specifically).

- Be unpredictable like a muh. Seriously, watch Dogura and see what kind of a crazy bastard he is.

- This is a good segway into Growler Field, a great tool to fight back the zoners with, but you can and will be baited.

- 5A, 5B and 2C are his most go to answers for AA. Although 2C (his slab throw) kind of affects the upper-forward side of his airspace. Any attacks from above his head will just ignore it. Which is where 5B might come in handy, although I don't think it has any head invul like 2C does.

- Once you get confident with him, starting thinking of good cross-up stuff, just remember the opponent can beat you with mashing jab. So, train them first.

- You now have access to one of the best backdashes in the game. Just don't go crazy, there are ways to beat it if your opponent reads it on wake-up. Bullet's drive for example can chase you down.

[Sophisticat]

Haha, thanks for the info!

 

I've got his rekka down and I'm not too bothered by his links. After learning Slayer, I think I'm good on that front.

 

Any good players to learn from? Aside from Dogura, I mean?

 

Alright then, time to practice stuff.

[LegendaryRath]

Tahichi was strong for a while, but he focuses on Persona now, so 1.1 footage of him is non-existent.

 

Luckily there's PLENTY of Dogura footage, probably more than all the other notable footage combined (imo). If you're set on watching someone else, Ikamen is one of my favorites, although there is hardly any footage of him.

 

Take a look at the most recent posts in the video thread and skim through some matches to see which players you like. I must warn you, though. There's a reason everyone suggests to watch Dogura. There is an enormous gap in skill and decision making between him and basically everyone else. He's definitely the best place to start.

[RentalBlackout]

Saki is pretty good too, but as you've said, rarely footage of anyone 15th dan+ other than Dogura. (Also might be because he's a Makoto main apparently)

 

Whenever I see Zekuso play his Azrael it seems like he's just trolling around or something, but despite that he still manages to put up a fight and win, pretty entertaining.