[AC] How to hit people

[4r5]

I'm going to start this off with my post-OD mindgames(!)

OD...

..., 2K(whiff), walk, throw

Why it works: They think the 2K is a meaty, so they sit there and block. You can whiff two 2K's on ABA.

Why it doesn't work: They think the 2K is a meaty, so they do a reversal. They have a bigger throw range then you.

So what? Since half the setup is non-committable, if you smell something fishy you can still back out. If your nose was right, since all you were doing was walking, you still have another chance to counter them.

..., 2K(whiff), dash, throw

Why it works: Same as above.

Why it doesn't work: Same as above, but dashing raises your commitment.

So what? Same as above, but more committed.

..., 2K(whiff), walk, tkDB

..., 2K(whiff), dash, tkDB

Why it works: They tried to stop your throw.

Why it doesn't work: They tried to stop your "throw" with something that just so happens to also stop your tkDB. (Like a VV)

So what? FRC-able. If they block or backdash, you still have secondary mixups. The FRC can also let you block, or even counter, their counter.

..., 2K(whiff), 2K

Why it works: They thought you were going to throw them.

Why it doesn't work: They did a reversal.

So what? They above doesn't work unless you give them a reason to block, and this is their reason.

..., 2K(whiff), D

Why it works: They weren't paying attention.

Why it doesn't work: They were paying attention.

So what? A high to go with your low.

..., 2K(whiff), OD

..., 2K(whiff), walk, OD

..., 2K(whiff), dash, OD

Why it works: They (didn't want to deal with your bullshit so they) did a reversal. (Like a VV)

Why it doesn't work: They weren't afraid of your gimmicks and block your OD.

So what? Sometimes OD is the only counter-counter you have to beat their counter. Resets on hit! If you're crazy like me, you may even consider RC'ing the OD, if they block, and dash up for a throw/2K/tkDB.

..., DBT>DB

Why it works: Crosses up on a fair amount of the cast. On really wide people, you can even choose not to crossup.

Why it doesn't work: Doesn't crossup on the really thin people. Some characters, it will only hit if they are standing or crouching.

So what? FRC-able and flies over some people's reversals. Jump-Install it to expand followup mindgames.

..., KJT>KJ

Why it works: Same as above.

Why it doesn't work: Same as above, but tends to whiff on a lot of crouchers.

So what? Same as above, but different trajectory.

..., 2K(whiff), DBT>DB

Why it works: Same as above.

Why it doesn't work: Same as above, but since these aren't meaty, you opponent has more wiggle room.

So what? Our post-OD whiff-2K already has high, low, and throw associated with it. Now we've just added crossups!

Of course, all these can work off any knockdown that gives you the right positioning and enough time. The one you will go to the most is: 2K(whiff), 2K. It's really just a slight variation of the usual meaty 2K, but with a bit of added misdirection that makes all the other stuff "work".

[chingu]

good info even though i know some of this stuff I need to work on execution more!!!

[YanisDLooper]

Funny. But also useful.

[Donutholes]

Speaking of ODs... I remember hitting a Slayer w/ the OD, leaving both of us at minimal health and I was somewhat in the corner. On wake up, I wove in and out and he did that super where he jumps really high. I OD again after he begins his and we clash. Neither of us reacted to it, but since he had so much more recovery, I punished and won the round. I think he said something similar to the following: "OD as an Oki? What's up with that?" Edit: You could also add DBT>Throw to the list. Something fun I do sometimes is do a k>s>hs>DBT and depending on whether they hit or not, do DB or throw. KJ is a little too obvious when going for the throw, so only do that if you hit confirm the k>s>hs.

[Kadius]

I'm fond of buffering an OD after mist cancels and during dashes.

[4r5]

omg, I can't believe I forgot about meaty JackHound! Hilarious for when they are endanger of dying to chip. Sometimes they accidentally get a DAA and it whiffs.

[Donutholes]

Now that you mention it, can JH cross up during wake-up? I think the hit boxes for it are actually behind Johnny when he does it, so if you time it right it would kinda be like Bison's Psycho Crusher.

[4r5]

JH never crosses up. Or, atleast, I'm pretty sure it never does. I do this to other people. no one ever does this to me (not like I ever fight other johnny's) so I won't know. Sometimes people just inexplicately get hit by it, but I always chucked it up to them messing up their reversal timing.

[10stars]

More gimmicks/mixups, listed for the players who are running out of tricks:

2d (hit) dash - jump cancel backdash j.k/j.s/j.h Mixup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTRATWzRhU

This works because its a crossup after a knockdown, even if you dont have the tension to combo off of it, its a free hit regardless.

This doesnt work because it can be reacted to, Johnny doesnt have the fastest air dash for crossups. On the same note, you can delay your air backdash, and instead of crossing them up you'll be in front of them facing away, but johnnys j.s hit boxes are slightly behind him, so you can still land hits. This doesnt work because they simply wanted to throw a reversal when they woke up (such as a VV)

Mist Stance cancel overdrive Gimmick, can be used more than once because there's multiple things the opponent has to try/test to find a proper counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St0ieWL45pg

Originally found by qwerty, I've used this in matches to my advantage.

This works because of a really long list of things:

They thought you were holding a high mist finer.

They think you're a sitting duck in mist stance because they have a move that goes under mid mist finer (Such as jams puffball, avoids the mist finer, but does not avoid the ovedrive)

This is good because:

You can have a high mist finer waiting for an air dash.

You can jackhound through some projectiles in mist stance.

You can MSDJH if someone's doing something a bit out of jackhound range that you dont want them doing (jam charging cards)

Even if they block the overdrive, you wont be punished for it, resets on block.

This doesnt work because:

Your enemy has projectiles that you cant jackhound through.

Your enemy has slidehead.

Your enemy has something that avoids both mid mist finer and thats my name (kys 236k, sols grand viper, so they do this just in case they think you're holding a mid mist finer)

Overall easily one of my favorite "what the hell are you going to do" things. Overdrives immunity, anti air with high mist finer (this is the one you always want to hold if you're trying for this) jackhound for other options, and if all else looks like its going to fail, MC into a block.

5k > 5h > coin > Transport (kjt or dbt) > throw Gimmick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeEb9_YQP9s

One of my first found useful throw traps, works because they think you're trying to continue pressure.

Doesnt work because there's a gap where they can either backdash or jump to avoid a DB or KJ, and avoid being landed on for the throw, or throw a reversal. In the case that they backdash you're rarely punished for it. Its definitely johnny style risk/reward, abusing it means they figured you out, throwing it out once in a full blue moon means it could be a clutch moment.

5k > 5h > coin > dash > 6k FRC > Throw Gimmick / can be used more than once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZp4qwjktzA

Works because they think you're trying to continue pressure with block strings. Works because they think the 6k is going to hit if they jump (Which they can 1f jump fd block anyway, but it still works)

Doesnt work because they can jump out of it, even though the 6k deters them a little bit. They can backdash out of it as well, or throw a reversal. Your 6k can be thrown in its startup frames.

Random pressure string, MC > 6k frc > throw Gimmick / can be used more than once.

(video above)

Works because its very hard to react to unless your opponent is used to countering 6ks startup with a throw.

Doesnt work because they were 2p mashing, threw a reversal, or jumped away, your 6k can be thrown at the startup before the frc.

Mist cancel pressure (Any) into MSD throw Mixup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFCPTscvVcY

This works because it catches people off guard, Johnnys regular dash is the "omg he can throw me" sign, from mist stance especially in a corner, people dont want to poke too much because he's the most threatening there, especially if they take a few hits that make their guard bar cry.

This doesnt work because they were 2p mashing, they IAD'd over you when they saw the mist stance dash hoping you werent getting ready to throw a hmf, or they threw a reversal such as a vv.

Corner DB FRC > land > walk throw Mixup

Works because they thought you were going for a low after the DB FRC.

Doesnt work because they were spamming reversals, or IBd the DB and started mashing 2p.

Corner DB FRC > land 2k > generic combo Mixup

Works because they thought you were going to throw something else from the air after the DB FRC

Doesnt work because they were spamming reversals, 2p etc etc, you can toss a Killer joker after the DB frc if you think theyre going to spam 2p, it also seems to have the best chance of clashing with reversals. KJ hitting after a blocked DB frc against a 2p is a free launch in a corner.

Overdrive RC Dash throw Gimmick

Works because the opponent never expects it, it can be a round ender against people that arent looking for every single thing.

Doesnt work because 2p spam reversals, jumping, and FD. If you arent REALLY deep with the overdrive and they FD it, they get pushed out of throw range.

Jackhound RC dash throw Gimmick

Same as above for both working and not working

Any air combo > KJ FRC > j.S > allow tech > Jump throw Gimmick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLIayYKE6Zo

Works because your opponent was more worried about teching than anything else and back or neutral teched in or close to a corner. Also works because they thought you dropped a combo, silly bastards.

Doesnt work because they dashed out of the throws range as soon as they teched, or waited to tech. In the case that they wait to tech until theyre close to the ground, you can still hit them while you're falling.

Good because if you're in a corner, and arent able to land the enkasu, its a knockdown + mist with added damage. Especially useful as shown in that video if you can land the 5k > JI > 5h > kjt combo, because it allows you to land that mist into the enkasu loop.

Newly updated

Throw > Coin > Allow air tech > hmf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7V80fP-iPM

Works because they didnt FD after they teched the coin. This works on both back and neutral techs, forward techs you have to wait until they tech to the other side of you, or backdash as they tech in order for the mist finer to hit.

Doesnt work because they dashed after teching, or double jumped as you threw the mist finer, or they FDd the second that they techd.

Good because if you catch people without tension (aka off the start of the match) if they hold FD and you pause the mist finer, they'll run out of tension and you still get the hit.

Throw > j.s > j.h > kj frc > j.h > land > 6k

Character specific, not everyone can be hit by this. (Potempkin cant recover from it at all for example)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftWcAAQ7HTo

Works because they back techd without fding because they wanted to avoid a knockdown.

Doesnt work because they used a forward tech, or FD the 6k.

Good because even if they neutral tech, your 6k recovery frames are over, and you still have mixup options (You cannot neutral tech this combo and it leads to a knockdown if you dont back or forward tech it) Especially good against Aba players, who tend to tech absolutely everything to avoid a knockdown, and if the 6k hits, you just turned your throw into over 100 damage, and have the option to either 6k into coin, or 6k into a combo. (6k coin can also lead into a hmf if they dont want to air FD again ^_^)

After using it once or twice, if your opponent is deciding to just forward tech, instead of 6king, you can pause and jump up to catch their tech throw.

j.S ensenga RC > land > tk ensenga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwBdNJOHSxs

I cant recall what player did this, but it was used to finish someone off in a #Reload fight, It works because after the opponent sees an Ensenga RC, their immediate reaction once they see you hit the ground is to block low.

Doesnt work because they thought you were going to throw another ensenga without hitting the ground.

j.S ensenga rc > land > lmf2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDTjtpKuCI

Works because they thought you were going to throw another ensenga, or a tk ensenga. So pretty much after they get hit by the trick above, you can throw this into the mix.

Doesnt work because they reacted to the lmf2. Remember that Lmf1 is REALLY slow and shouldnt be thrown into this mixup, but a lmf2 has a higher chance of going by unnoticed until its too late.

I'll continue to update this post, the more i go to tournaments the more i figure shit out. And the more i play the more i randomly wake up at 4 am and begin recording things i find useful.

I added the 6k traps simply because i hardly ever see it used. It really isnt bad, im at a loss for why i never see it.

[4r5]

"RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE" Before we get too deep in to this, we should lay down the difference between a gimmick and a mixup. I'm going to define a gimmick as something that once your opponent knows the counter to, there's no way to capitalize on their knowledge of the counter. Whereas a mixup, you can exploit your opponent's knowledge of a counter. As an example, K-2D and K>tkEnsenga is a complete mixup. Knowledge of blocking the 2D low can be countered by, instead, doing tkEnsenga. Knowledge of blocking the Ensenga high can be countered by going back to doing 2D. The mixup is complete. Low Block > 2D > High Block > Ensenga > Low Block As you can see, the options and counter-options loop back on themselves, thus, forming a whole mixup. In much the same way that Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper, and Paper beats Rock. Removing any one of these elements and the mixup becomes incomplete forming a gimmick. Using the Rock-Scissors-Paper example, if we remove Paper, we'd have a gimmick. The remaining options are now: Rock and Scissors. If you pick Scissors, you'd either tie game or lose. If you pick Rock, you'd either tie game or win. Within the Rock-Scissors game, Scissors is a non-option. The best choice is to always go Rock. (In game theory, this is called a Nash equilibrium.) A Guilty Gear example of a gimmick, Testament knocks you down in the corner, then air dashes in to the corner and meaties a BadLands. The BadLands will cross you up. The counter to this is to block the opposite direction. This is a gimmick. If you know the counter, Testament has no way of airdash-into-corner+Badlands that will counter your knowledge. There is no mixup. Testament can no longer do this, once you know the counter. And now it's time to sleep. I'll try to remember to come back to this thread in the morning.

[10stars]

I put labels for what would fall under mixup and what falls under gimmicks after reading^ The 6k FRCs can be used multiple times imo, since it scares people into thinking its a hit very few frames before hand, it allows for multiple uses. The DB combos i listed for corner are DBs performed lower to the ground, so if you try them too high such as db frc land throw, it allows wayyyyyyyyyy too much time for the opponent to react.

[reaVer]

I'm going to define a gimmick as something that once your opponent knows the counter to, there's no way to capitalize on their knowledge of the counter. Whereas a mixup, you can exploit your opponent's knowledge of a counter.

By this definition a tickthrow is a gimmick and tick attack a mixup.

I'd define mixup as a multiway choice the defending player has to make after a setup. I'd define a gimmick as putting your opponent in a oneway choice for proper defending, though the attempt is often successful because your opponent doesn't expect it to happen.

[10stars]

Regardless of what it is, players can use trial and error to see what works more than once, the important thing at this point is to put more things up that new or experienced johnny players can use. From there they can determine what works more than once, and when to use what.

[4r5]

K>tkEnsenga would be a gimmick if you never utilized K-2D, but together they form a mixup. Yes, alone, a tick-throw is a gimmick, and so is a "tick-attack". And together, the two form a whole mixup. We actually have the same definition, though your is more informal. Before this spirals in to an off-topic discussion on semantics, let's end this right here and remember what this topic is for. Hitting people. I didn't work out these definition so that we could put labels on things. I wanted to take what we all understood intuitively and bring it out to the forefront. These tangible words were meant to provoke people to take a deeper look at what they have and thoroughly examine all the branches. Let's look at one. Empty Transport, land, throw is a pretty weak gimmick. The counter is to throw you before you ever get your chance to throw them. In fact, this is most people's natural reflex. You'll get people who haven't developed this reflex. And for those with the reflex, but a poor mindview of the game, you can just throw up some smoke-n-mirrors and evade the reflex entirely. But no matter the amount of confetti is in the air beforehand, empty transport = free throw. But there's more that we can do, so let's delve a little bit deeper. How can we exploit this reflex? Simplest way would be to do the Transport followups at the very last minute. Remember I mentioned, "mindview", everything humans perceive exists in the past, we compensate by making short predictions based off our perceived "present". In short, landing and throwing or not landing but following-up is unreactable. We now moved from gimmick to mixup. Let's go one step deeper. This entire throw/block mixup can now be evaded by hitting you out of your transport, before you get close enough to initiate the mixup. Our counter to this would be to perform the Transport followups sooner and hit them out of their antiair attempt. The simple Transport now contains two mixups. The first being: antiair or block. The second: throw or block. This is pretty simplified. We're only considering a small sample of what each side can do. If you take into account JI and FRC, there's even more.

[10stars]

Yeah, out of the coin transport throw, if you know theyre going for a throw attempt and used DBT, you can DB slightly before you hit the ground and push them out of throw range.

[JOFan]

10star: hey 10, thanks for posting that cross-up vid. although they are kinda punishable dont u think? seeing as how JO can be easily AA'd out of his slow ad. not sure where this goes but how do u guys practise setup for tk dbt>dbfrc or tk kjt>kjfrc cross-ups? i can do the tk db>dbfrc stuff fine standalone but to apply it in game is still kinda unf and any other situation leading to this mix-up would help.

[10stars]

10star: hey 10, thanks for posting that cross-up vid. although they are kinda punishable dont u think? seeing as how JO can be easily AA'd out of his slow ad.

not sure where this goes but how do u guys practise setup for tk dbt>dbfrc or tk kjt>kjfrc cross-ups?

i can do the tk db>dbfrc stuff fine standalone but to apply it in game is still kinda unf

and any other situation leading to this mix-up would help.

Yes, his slow backdash does allow AAs, but 6ps for the most part thrown before the crossup wont hit johnny, VVs etc will (from experience so far at least)

The only time i kjt kjfrc crossup is when i land an enkasu that puts me out of mist, coin, and oki range, you really just have to eye up the crossup and distance in matches, and i dont use it frequently because its more risk than i like, and tension can normally be spent in other places.

[qwerty]

Mist Stance cancel overdrive

glad to know someone's been using it.

any matchvids of you using it in practice?

[10stars]

glad to know someone's been using it.

any matchvids of you using it in practice?

I dont have any videos of it unfortunately, but ive used it against a slayer and a sol in casuals. Slayers tends to go for DoT if he thinks you're close enough in mist stance.

[4r5]

Jackhound RC dash throw Gimmick

This use to be a big part of my game, back in Slash.

Just Jackhound, RC, and throw a kick or hardslash at them. Most people will still be holding, what use to be back but is now, forward and walk in to your attack. You need a slight pause between the JH and the following attack, so that absolute-block kicks out. For people who catch on, you can now mix it up by RCing in such a way that you don't cross up. Now you got a two-way mixup, a sort of pseudo-crossup, even works in the corner. Toss in the throw for the three-way.

Now that Jackhound is a Forcebreak, it's been hard to justify the 75% meter to perform this. Usual just go for a KillerJoker crossup, or two.

But if we're going to be blowing 75%, might as well go all the way! Here's a funny thing to do, if they block Jackhound high. After RCing Jackhound, jump up and kick. The j.K will hit them if they are crouching, via fuzzy-guard. Now cancel j.K into a KJ(frc) and you get a combo. Not a true fuzzy-guard setup, since JH doesn't force a high guard. But it's there if you wanna be a joker. You can also do the same thing, by throwing a Coin and dashing up behind it. If they block the Coin high, then jump up and kick, blah blah blah.

If you wanna talk about a true fuzzy-guard setup.

blahblah>KJT>KJ(frc), K.... (Or,)

blahblah>KJT>KJ(frc), HS>KJ(frc), K.... (for more GB+ | The air kick forces a high guard, setting up the fuzzy-guard)

...>dj.K>KJ(frc), ...combo... (Overhead option)

..., land, 2D>...combo... (Low option)

Overdrive RC Dash throw Gimmick

Long time ago, I got Marn with this once, during casuals. When I fought him in tournament, I went to do this and mid-dash I was thinking, "Wait, Fuck, I already hit him with this!" and started mashing out a tkDB. But it was already too late and I got PoteBusted for the lose.

oh hey, you updated your post

I added the 6k traps simply because i hardly ever see it used. It really isnt bad, im at a loss for why i never see it.

I used it a lot in Slash. It's been around since XX. You don't see it alot, since dashing forward and doing 5P or c.S is equivalent, but with less commitment. The same maneuver is broken up in to two parts: the dash, then an attack. You can stop halfway and do other stuff (like airthrow if you think they are going to block/forward-tech), rather then being forced all the way with 6K.

You don't see it alot now (if ever, for reasons stated above), in AC, because that particular low to the ground tech-point doesn't happen as often. Also, CH 6K isn't as good as it use to be. Not really sure what's changed, but that particular situation just doesn't seem to happen anymore. It feels like they changed the velocities of air-techs. It's a pity, 'cause it would of been really cool now that 6K is special-cancelable.

I have the old games, I should just compare the airtechs.

[10stars]

I hit josh ballard with the TMN RC at NEC, got the knockdown that lead to an IK so, its a useful trick, even if you only use it once in some random fight then never again. Edit: Throw > j.s > j.h > kj frc > j.h > land > 6k, in that i cant seem to dash 6p or dash 5©S at all, so the 6k trap is still useful. And what's your opinion on the 6k frc throw setups? I know the same thing can be accomplished with a dash in alot of situations, but 6k scares people into blocking alot. Further edit: I cant seem to jackhound rc j.k from any range, im one of the people who has no problem dropping 75-100% tension if it means im going to finish whoever im fighting off, any videos you have sitting around so i can get a visual?

[4r5]

not 6P, 5P

throw, j.S-HS>KJ(frc), HS, land~{backtech}, dash>5P

throw, j.S-HS>KJ(frc), HS, land~{backtech}, dash>c.S

doing it right now, they both work.

I don't got my vid equipment with my at the moment. So we'll use some numbers.

6K = 16 startup

dash>5P = 10 + 5 = 15 startup

dash>c.S = 10 + 6 = 16 startup

get the dash out quickly, and cancel your dash as soon as possible.

6K(frc), throw

6K only scares inexperienced players into blocking. Experienced players will poke or throw you out. Even when you get the FRC, you still risk getting thrown yourself. If you're going to use this against seasoned opponents, you'll need more then just the throw option. Like mixing in tkKJ's and OD's, etc, along with the throw.

As a mixup, you're getting the same options you could be getting from a simple dash. But you're spending 25% and you can't JC. 6K(frc) is crap. It's not a stable of my game.

But that's not to say I never use it, and it can't be used. Going back to Marn. When I took a match by doing OD>RC,dash>throw, It wasn't about good, effective mixups. It was just about hitting him. He never seen it before, he wasn't expecting it. This manuever was free on him. Latter that day, in our tournament match, had I a clearer head, I would of remembered that I already used up that ace. Instead of throwing, I should tkDB. Since I know that he knows, and I know that he wants to counter OD>RC,dash>throw; OD>RC,dash>tkDB is now free on him. (Or, it would of been free.)

It's mindgames. Which was what I was trying to illustrate in the original post. It's not about getting your oppopnent into a situation and randomly picking an option and seeing if your opponent beats it. It's about knowing what will hit him and hitting him.

If you know you opponent lacks experience and 6K(frc),throw will hit, then go for it. If you know your opponent will counter-throw your throw and that doing 6K(frc),tkKJ will hit him, then do it. If you know that doing some wacky set of actions will provoke a particular response from your opponent and that you can take advantage of that response, then do it.

(but this is just how I play. If someone wants to try to make a mixup oriented Johnny then go for it.)

Further edit:

I cant seem to jackhound rc j.k from any range, im one of the people who has no problem dropping 75-100% tension if it means im going to finish whoever im fighting off, any videos you have sitting around so i can get a visual?

Sorry, never bothered to record it.

Time your RC so that you end up right next to them. If you haven't notice yet, Johnny actually travels during JH. If you RC the moment JH connects, you don't go anywhere. And then, varying when you RC can control where you end up.

[Killerwatt]

Well, in terms of my personal gimmicks to hit people with I've got a little something (and I'm probably the only JO player who does with). Evey few times I score a KD I oki with 2K or 3HS, then as their life gets low I oki a tkEnsenga. I've had this turn successful in my fights (check out some of my early youtube matches, subpar as they are) because my opponents know I have no standing overheads other than our slow ass 5D so they always block low on wakeup...but probably only because of me conditioning my opponent I guess. Of course, if/when they block high on wakeup that's my ass w/o a RC for safety. Thoughts?

[10stars]

ive never thrown an ensenga at anyone waking up. 3 active frames can be pretty easily backdashed by everyone in the cast, so even if you have the tension to rc it, you can still be punished for it. just my two centz.

[4r5]

You're not the only Johnny player that does that. If they're blocking it, then you aren't conditioning them hard enough. If they were blocking it, then they were probably looking for it. And if they were looking for it, then you probably could of hit them with something they weren't watching for. Next time they block it, keep a mental note of what they do after you RC it. You can exploit that response latter. Yeah, Ensenga can be backdashed. Everything in the game is beatable by something else, but people still manage to hit each other. If something will hit someone, then hit them. Not saying you have to be psychic, you just have to observe your opponent. When people do things, they tend to be preceded by certain cues or tells. Just like in Poker, a player can tell what you have in your hand, not because he's psychic, but because he read your involuntary signals.