[CP] Amane vs. Kokonoe

[DerQ]

Post your thoughts about the Kokonoe matchup here. Be as constructive as possible when discussing matchups.

Kokonoe boards' thread
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18397-CP-Kokonoe-Vs-Amane

Pros

- We can escape all black hole setups for 50 meter with 632146C > 236D

Cons

- Amane is really floaty, so a single Activate from Kokonoe can send him straight to the corner

Drill game

-

General strategy

-

[Eshi]

I need advice on this match-up ASAP for NEC. I know it's not a fun match-up but the more I know then the more likely I won't lose to a bad player.

So far what I know:

6A beats her j2C clean (even on cross-up apparently?)

Avoiding graviton'd fireball is easy thanks to floatiness, avoiding her chie air normals is not

If Amane predicts wake-up super fireball, he can hit her with 2C/jC and the spin state + knock down keeps her from getting out graviton

Super fireball with graviton is completely impossible to avoid because Zettou is still affected by gravity. A better strategy is to air jump into the fireball and block it so she can't mix you up.

EDIT: of course I forgot the most obvious thing, Kokonoe's black hole setups don't work because Amane's 632146C super pushes him out of range. That ultimately doesn't matter if he loses to Koko's neutral, though.

[STenSatsu]

Find out whether the Koko you are facing likes to chuck fireballs first or do graviton first and whether they like to do it from the ground or air. Will help you decided between preemptive 5c or 6c. Another way to beat wakeup superball may be 3c>236c since 236c should push you far enough into her to miss the fireball, haven't actually tried it yet. Practice IBing at least the second hit of her 3c vacuum. Too many Kokos will go right into another normal on block and it is -4 on IB. You should be able to beat her normals afterward with 2b or 6b. Be careful with drill oki since she can probably 22c right out of it and punish you hard. Also, make sure you run through all your BNBs on her since her hitbox is wacky. I don't think it should affect much, but if you use the 6c2>236a>j.c2>j.6c2 extensions a lot they can be finnicky hitbox wise.

[HOS303]

623C that bitch.

Also, Graviton is a pain in the ass (just like how ice is cold). Giving her room to do ANYTHING = put down the controller and listen to "I Believe I Can Fly" because you're pretty much boned if she activated that while you're likely going to be in the air, sending you zooming toward her waiting 6A.

All I've found myself able to do, as Amane, is fish for counterhits and hope for the best.

[DerQ]

Some fun stuff I've been messing around with in training earlier. Starting from the idea that Graviton makes it too hard to obtain the required spacing to stop kokonoe from summoning more stuff, I tried reducing rewards for her and risk for Amane. Pressing C with gravity is nearly impossible to connect since the moment you recognize the right spacing, your move's startup allows for gravity and koko to just mess with the spacing you got a few frames ago. Plus, if Koko activates graviton on you, you simply die. Too many risks, no rewards.

If Kokonoe lays a graviton to keep you away (3D, 6D or 9D), simply walking back makes a whole lot of sense compared to try to stay in C poke range. For one, if she activates graviton you block it where you are. Assuming Kokonoe wants to get away from you, if she activates, you'll stay fullscreen after activation is blocked instead of being sucked in. You are simply blocking it. Fireball in such a scenario is out of the equation as it'll never reach you.

If you take activate out of the equation and add fireball instead for the teleport shenanigans. You can react to Kokonoe setting up both. If fireball comes first, staying in C range can get you to punish Kokonoe for throwing it out. If Graviton comes first, command hop backwards on reaction. After a fireball like that, Kokonoe wants to teleport and go in. If you did command hop back, you will be outside of the fireball/gravitron range and she will be in between her toys and you since SHE HAS TO TELEPORT BEHIND THE GRAVITRON. If done right, you can tag her with a j.B on her teleport recovery, make the fireball and graviton go away and start some offense. Might not be viable to do so under certain conditions though. If you are cornered to a wall, you don't have space to maneuver backwards. That means that in the corner or from fullscreen away, it's harder to get that backward hop working. Luckily, if Koko wants to zone, she definitely doesn't want to be in your face, so she'll be backing herself up near the corner leaving you plenty of space to hop backwards if needed. The other undesirable scenario is super fireball as it's harder to make it go away or to not trade with it. Your other resort is to just hop away and try to avoid it if you can. If that happens, just content yourself with a stalemate I say.

Kokonoe can always attempt pressing 3D, 6D or 9D again to send the fireball in your direction again. Without fireball travel time from fullscreen, you'll block it before she even recovers from using a new graviton. I'm not sure this overturns the situation, but it does leave her less time to get in and mix you up or make you block. Also, for whatever it's worth, she has to spend more graviton meter to do so.

So what else can Koko do if she wants to zone at this point. Well, the lightning rod can prevent you from staying in at a desired spacing. Since Amane is pretty floaty/slow when moving, triggering the rod can be tedious. Not enough experience on this particular aspect, but it is not something I attempted to map out in neutral. If she sets a gravitron nearby herself to suck you in, from almost fullscreen, you can just command hop forward j.B and you're in her face. It travels so much distance. If she activates gravitron, it'll actually push you back to safety without sending you up towards the stratosphere.

So the way I see it, Kokonoe has to have 2 tools or above to actually guarantee herself a chance of mixing you up or making you block. Just a fireball alone doesn't accomplish a thing, so does gravitron and lighting rod. For her to set up two of them, you can react to them as they come and choose what's the best outcome you can create for yourself as the decisions will be different. In the end, I think Kokonoe is most likely not rewarded to try to zone Amane and throw toys at him. Amane doesn't win it free, but you can react to a lot of the situations and at least force a stalemate. She also pushes herself back to the corner when playing to zone you eventually giving her a clear cut disadvantage. If she does want to go in, I see the same mindset being applied. You can try to go back to C poke range for a stalemate again or be confident in your "footsies" to attempt tagging her with w/e move.

Still an unforgiving matchup, now to find proper adjustments for her corner wakeup game. I think Hariken enders cover teleports and you should be far away to dodge super ball. I'd have to test it (or anyone else), but it's getting late ATM here.

[DerQ]

Was fiddling to get around super ball reversal. Turns out Amane has some nice stuff to help him deal with that.

Midscreen you can either punish with 5D or 3C. From 5D CH, you can zettou forward with j.B and extend the combo. Rewards depend on drill level. If you're on 3, it's good meterless damage. If you want to spend meter, 3C > Raibu RC > stuff is a good 3.8k~ damage.

Corner is different thing. Hariken oki is actually really good. Like amazingly good. If she teleports, you can punish her recovery with 2B and keep her in the corner. If she tries to super ball, you can do a specific combo that will dodge A and B ball.

5B CH > 2C > 236A > jB > 2A > 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A (2) > 6A > 623C. Damage is ok, but it's guaranteed regardless of drill oki or if you decided to bait and block the super. It also runs long enough to allow for the 2B > Gekiren reset vs. j.2B. Both of which make abstraction of Kokonoe's wakeup reversals. If you had her cornered, did this combo and run this mixup successfully, that's about death

If you want a damaging combo, there's 3.8k against A ball super. 5B CH > 2C > 3C > 236C > Whatever. Runs a whole lot less proration than the combo above. The cool thing is that they will most likely be using this version, so it's worth trying. Worst case scenario, they did B version and you will trade when 3C hit. Kokonoe will tech while you get hit and it results in a trade in favor of Amane damage wise since you only took 3 hits. What's more is that Kokonoe takes a step forward during super flash. Depending on the button, she will travel a little more distance. Super flash + 5B > 2C should leave you plenty of time to recognize which version she did. They're not that distant from each other, but it should be possible to know which ball was used on super flash.

Speaking of travel distance on every version, there's one last thing worth mentioning. If Kokonoe does C super ball reversal against Hariken oki, she moves forward a lot more. Up to the point where she can actually hit Amane in Hariken recovery. So you really want to be at max distance if possible if using A hariken. Kokonoe's hurtbox for 5B > 5D > 236D~A is kinda weird. If you really want to make sure your oki is guaranteed, make sure you get the right range. But nonetheless, this is only for C version. Other two versions of the super won't reach Amane during Hariken's recovery as reliably.

[DaiAndOh]

OD Blackhole is escapable with Amane via 632146C->236D according to @Oboronoel (top ranked Noel player who's testing the characters)

Hariken stance alone can handle poor Blackhole setups though.

Also of note, since DerQ had it bolded, now she teleports in front of Gravitons, with some exceptions in the corner I believe.

[Cynthetik]

OD Blackhole is escapable with Amane via 632146C->236D according to @Oboronoel (top ranked Noel player who's testing the characters)

Hariken stance alone can handle poor Blackhole setups though.

Also of note, since DerQ had it bolded, now she teleports in front of Gravitons, with some exceptions in the corner I believe.

 

I played a long set against Pain a couple days after the patch dropped. Hariken stance does indeed beat Black Hole practically for free as long as it isnt a proper set up (for proper set ups, you need to do 632146C > 236D to escape), but there are a few things to be aware of.

 

1) Hariken barely lasts longer than Black Hole so best bet is to jump/hop/dash before entering Hariken to guarantee that the stance will last through Black Hole.

2) You can still get meatied by Black Hole because projectile invincibility does not start up until frame 5

3) BE AWARE OF YOUR DRILL METER! Try not to attempt to use Hariken unless you are at level 1. At higher drill levels, your meter has a higher chance to overheat before Black Hole is over and you will be sucked in.

4) Apparently there is a bug with Black Hole's recovery. Sometimes Kokonoe recovers fast and other times she does not. Don't be surprised if you miss out on a punish.

[Eshi]

In practice mode, I realized yesterday that if Amane does dash zettou > air dash from any range further than just outside its trigger point, the trap will not hit him. This can be really useful for getting in when the Koko player thinks they're safe. Obviously this will not work if a graviton is behind you.