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Urichinan

[CP] Litchi vs. Hakumen

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I would like to discuss this match up, this is the only one, so far, I'm having trouble with.

Distanced ground neutral seems to be in Litchi's favor: being able to low profile under some of his pokes and then combo into good damage is definitely strong. Also, it seems like his ability to pull in from counters on opponent's long distance poke moves is now weaker? I feel like I got away with some 6Bs and 6Cs from near max range that I don't remember being able to as often in older BB's. Throwing staff and going in behind it at a distances feels scary and somewhat useless because it's just giving him something to counter upon your own entry, or something to create a Black Hole with, stopping your approach.

Mid-range is where I feel like I get stuck. Haku is either in range to counter everything or at his ideal poke range, which beats out Litchi's range. It also ruins Itsuu with his normal approaches (either his sweep or his jump-in C to Black Hole the Itsuu~A projectile). It's here I'm unsure if I should stay at poking range to stay somewhat safer or if I should go in and force mix-ups and try to hard bait counters/his Hotaru(? whatever his jump kick DP is which is, thankfully, now unsafe on whiff and block).

After writing down my thoughts here, I'm feeling I will be better off just going in for the close range mix ups and baits, but I want to hear other's thoughts too.

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It's so funny that I held this page up because I wanted to post also but not sure what to say. Press refresh and voila! Someone else is in the same boat!

Hakumen is on steroids in this version. Not sure what to do against him myself. I agree with him beating out litchi midrange. I seem to lose at that range 99% of the time.

Long range game is still in Litchis favor with pokes like 3C, 6B, and sometimes itsuu. Those have been effective. But anytime he touches you is at least 4k dmg from most of his confirms because of the faster meter gain. Overdrive combos for 6k+ damage and the lower his health the worse it is.

What kind of Litchi's okizeme is safe against this guy? Because I felt like that would help a lot.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one hahaha!

So our Hakumen player who is giving me trouble says that the Counter is not an unblockable any more. So, in theory, a 4 Kote staff throw to jumping Barrier should WORK in the sense of they have to block, counter to no avail (but Hakumen is still not punishable off a whiffed counter), or he does his up kick (punishable) then go from there while he's locked down.

Otherwise, offsetting his timing with something that takes a bit to come out (i.e. delayed 6A, 6B, 6B Feint Throw), high/lows to beat out one or the other of his counters, or throws (you risk purple throwing with staff being out, but better than getting countered).

Yeah, you just gotta be solid with your confirms and do 4k back to him. Especially since he has more health. Treat him a bit like Persona, too. Try to kill him through the end of his life so that he doesn't get a chance to OD (Awakening) and come back, or reset him if you don't think you can kill. Once again, more theory.

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Hakumens counter (excluding supers) can be blocked now, so approaching with staff flying is some what safer than it use to be since you can block his counter if he counters the staff (be careful though)

yes litchi reach is longer than hakumens, so you can poke him and space him out. But really close that gap, he gets meter for no fucking reason. with enough meter he can end the round fater than you can say "all green"

If you wanna grab him, BE CAREFUL, hakumens who see the grab coming wont tech it, they'll just J.b it (ergo free counter hit for them)

He can be scary and hard to deal with, just be careful on how you approach him and you'll be fine.

Best oki (in my opinion) of is far ranged 4 winds. if he counters, you're too far for him to do anything (so approch with cation if he does this). if he blocks it, free approach (and mix up if near the corner) if he gets hit (and you are fast enough) you get a free combo (better done if he gets CH). Only problem with this is, if he cuts it and makes that black hole thingy thingy \: which will fuck you up.

Also 2b[m] > 4b[m] is so good in this (at least imo o_o could be wrong but it's worked so far against him and tagers alike)

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Definitely less stressful than the previous games - since his counters aren't ridiculous.

Vs hakumen - 2B - 6B are good but if the hakumen clocks you - he can IAD J.2C it - idk if he can genma 623a through them.

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I'll try the 2B, 4B more next time I play a Hakumen, but so far it's gotten me mileage. I think it's pretty strong for anyone who has a mainly ground game.

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Had the (dis)pleasure of playing our local Hakumen in our first ranbat today. The 4 Winds actually made the match up a bit easier. Even on his approach on the sake of still hitting him after he got in. But as you said, if he clashes with the staff, it SUCKS.

My first match against him in our ranbat I kind of played a little safe, testing out the 4 Winds and nearly lost. The second round, I went ham on him because I was in winners while adding 4 Winds, which worked awesomely (despite dropping damn near everything ever lol).

One thing I feel that gauges a Hakumen well is to jump when close to him, cross him up, air backdash back to where you were and see how they react. It gives good insight into how they handle a mentally pressuring situation. Do they try to swing their sword? Counter? Jump? It gives a better idea for their play style. For some reason, doing this a couple times made me more confident in going in and doing the cross up jump, air backdash to punish his attempt to hit me with his sword on the opposite side. Or empty jump grab because he started holding counter.

Also, the corner vacuum Kanchan seems to be scary to do more than once or twice against any competent Hakumen player, because he gains a LOT more than most if he defends it, and has more good options against it (counter, large ass normals, if he blocks, you're in corner against Hakumen, without staff.)

Watch for when they like to actually press buttons for pressure. I cannot stress this enough because so many of Hakumen's tools NATURALLY counter Litchi's DP (Counter, the stupid upward kick, his forward dash special move, sword swinging).

Together, we can BEAT this character!

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So to add to some things after another ranbat night, Hakumen has a really good Agito oki set up where he airdashes right over you after a knockdown and uses Agito (the sideways looking move similar to Jin's j.2C[?]). He gets to press buttons after it so it's pretty much a pain in the ass. Our Hakumen followed up with j.B after, so I worked with it some this morning.

It seems the main point is to learn IB it if you want to counter attack it. Otherwise if you don't IB it, you have to either respect it or be willing to guess a DP. This can be an issue because depending on which side you block, how far you slide back, Hakumen's position, the j.B may even be a second cross up. Your DP still SHOULD hit, from Training Mode testing, but still, risk because Hakumen could just decide to not do anything after if you block.

If you do IB and the Hakuman goes for a j.B: As long a Hakumen isn't too high, you can CH with 5A before his j.B comes out. 5B is too risky due to the slower speed, and lower hitbox, and you REALLY don't wanna get CH by Hakumen :vbang:

If you don't IB and the Hakumint goes for a j.B: I had very few instances where RIGHT after the Agito I was able to CH the j.B. But I think the risk/reward is NOT worth it, so use that knowledge at your own will (especially with only a few training mode recordings). I also could do a DP between the two.

If the Haikumen does Aigitos high some fun things you can do is: Wake up Itsuu to go through it, Haku under it and to move out of range of his follow j.B, and just one I did a feint 6B out of it. :v:

I'll play around with it more when I get to play against him again though. I'm sure his timing and spacing is tighter.

Other small, fun, thing: Crush Trigger is considered a projectile. So if he tries to counter super against it, you can jump out of it. So it's a decent bait oki option if he has meter. The opponent will call you a master...of bating... A great fisherman! That's what he'll call you :v:

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Figured I'd correct some of the information on here and also give my view of the matchup as a Hakumen main.

? whatever his jump kick DP is which is, thankfully, now unsafe on whiff and block).

Hotaru. This move is less godlike than in previous versions of the game but it is still safe on block as it is jump-cancellable if it hits anything.

Get used to reacting to when it whiffs and you will have a good time punishing Hotaru-happy hakumens. Really it's a bad thing to do in neutral game now. Hakumen will usually use this move if they have you in the corner and are predicting you to attempt a jump-out. The other situation is when they are almost sure that you will DP on wakeup - Hotaru will indeed beat it. To beat this simply don't jump - block low and it will whiff because of the hitbox changes to it, allowing you to punish with 5a or 5b if you are fast. Hotaru whiffs on smaller characters like Litchi even when I hop into them at point blank range and use it. Good Hakumens will not use this move much. If a hakumen uses it, that's because old habits die hard because it was godlike in extend.

If you wanna grab him, BE CAREFUL, hakumens who see the grab coming wont tech it, they'll just J.b it (ergo free counter hit for them)

Best oki (in my opinion) of is far ranged 4 winds. if he counters, you're too far for him to do anything (so approch with cation if he does this). if he blocks it, free approach (and mix up if near the corner) if he gets hit (and you are fast enough) you get a free combo (better done if he gets CH). Only problem with this is, if he cuts it and makes that black hole thingy thingy \: which will fuck you up.

Also 2b[m] > 4b[m] is so good in this (at least imo o_o could be wrong but it's worked so far against him and tagers alike)

I'm not sure about j.B being a good punish to a grab. Rising j.B is largely uncomboable unless hakumen simply wants to do a quick 2k damage with rising j.B to beat your grab into tsubaki. Rather if I see a grab coming for sure, I will Hotaru for 3-4k, or 3c(the sweep) for even more. Assuming you're talking about grounded grabs here.

My idea of what Four winds was is wrong so I deleted that part of the post.

Had the (dis)pleasure of playing our local Hakumen in our first ranbat today. The 4 Winds actually made the match up a bit easier. Even on his approach on the sake of still hitting him after he got in. But as you said, if he clashes with the staff, it SUCKS.

My first match against him in our ranbat I kind of played a little safe, testing out the 4 Winds and nearly lost. The second round, I went ham on him because I was in winners while adding 4 Winds, which worked awesomely (despite dropping damn near everything ever lol).

One thing I feel that gauges a Hakumen well is to jump when close to him, cross him up, air backdash back to where you were and see how they react. It gives good insight into how they handle a mentally pressuring situation. Do they try to swing their sword? Counter? Jump? It gives a better idea for their play style. For some reason, doing this a couple times made me more confident in going in and doing the cross up jump, air backdash to punish his attempt to hit me with his sword on the opposite side. Or empty jump grab because he started holding counter.

Also, the corner vacuum Kanchan seems to be scary to do more than once or twice against any competent Hakumen player, because he gains a LOT more than most if he defends it, and has more good options against it (counter, large ass normals, if he blocks, you're in corner against Hakumen, without staff.)

Watch for when they like to actually press buttons for pressure. I cannot stress this enough because so many of Hakumen's tools NATURALLY counter Litchi's DP (Counter, the stupid upward kick, his forward dash special move, sword swinging).

Together, we can BEAT this character!

4 winds, 4 winds, 4 winds. Get good at keeping a hakumen locked down with this. Just because he can counter it or void it doesn't mean it's unusable. However, I almost feel like keeping the staff and poking him out with itsuu or long-range normals is more frustrating to deal with. If you do want to use it, do not make the launch obvious. If you vary the timings and make it wiggle a bit before letting it fly it's much harder to cut/counter.

Also consider using Itsuu a ton. It beats pretty much everything we have at range. After a little bit of full screen footsies, the average hakumen usually will get a little impatient and just IAD in on you. Itsuu(the guard point thing, right?) beats this every time, but try to smack him out of the air right away instead of waiting for him to hit your guard point. If he hits the guard point he can sometimes cancel into hotaru for shenanigans. Best case scenario, he hits your guard point, and you CH him. Worst cast scenarios, he hits your guard point, cancels into Hotaru, and CH's you. If you keep waiting in guard point through the Hotaru, he can instantly double jump and barrier to block the follow up and fall down onto you. Don't wait for the guard point if you can help it when he's in the air.

Now then, this is all at the long-range where Litchi has the advantage. What about when he gets in on you and starts his pressure?

Hakumen pressure usually consists of frame traps and grab mixups. If you know what he can do, he is one of the easiest characters to defend against (imo). You just have to be patient. Hakumen players love antsy opponents that like to jump out of pressure every chance they get. Just block. React to the stomp overhead, and react to the grabs. He loses meter with every good pressure option he can do. All he has after that is footsy frame traps and the occasional AD Agito.

When you are knocked down: Late neutral tech or Tech roll away. DO NOT roll forward. A good hakumen will catch this every time with 2b and he loses nothing by using it while you tech. Late techs can work here but be careful - if he calls your bluff he can just 5c you and end the round from 75% health. Tech rolls away work wonders against hakumen because he has to predict it to punish it, so just don't be predictable with it.

When he gets knockdown on you do not DP on wake-up, 90% of the time. The reward is often not worth it. If he predicts it, it means at least 3-4k and maybe 8k overdrive combo, and wake-up is when I have the most time to think about the DP predicton. If you're going to DP, the best time to do it would be during his pressure.

Hotaru used to be the main pressure tool for haku to beat potential jump outs, mash outs, or DPs. Now that it whiffs if you sit still, he can't use it for a cover-all-option-juggernaut-pressure move like before, meaning you are safer to DP than ever before because haku will rarely use it during pressure.

Hakumen has a ton of holes in his pressure. Learn when he likes to command dash to continue pressure. It differs between hakumen players, but it is usually used when you are just pushed out of reach from any other moves to hit. This is when you can DP. Don't be scared of hakumen's pressure until he has 5 stars. At 5 stars he can pull off some crazy shit from either Tsubaki (aerial roundhouse sword of death) or even from his stomp overhead (He can rapid cancel and get a high-damage combo on NORMAL hit).

Some last thoughts:

Agito does not hit overhead, it is a mid-level attack even from high in the air

Do not use obvious meaties on his wake-up, he'll just 2d it

Empty jumps --> grab to bait out counters work wonders against hakumens who love to take long Drives through the country side.

Feel free to correct any of my information, I'm not at Spark level but I am intensely dedicated to the character and have played him since CT. :eng101:

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Kinda a "universal" fact not much of a litchi specific but people tend to panic burst because y'know - Hakumen hits you and you so how lose 6k +

If he does 41236C (Zantetsu) , try to burst it before the first slash hits you (within a combo ofcourse)  because if he does the first hit and you panic burst > 623A(Kishuu)(Corrected- Thx BlackYakuza94) is a natural burst bait.  

Also although litchi can keep him out. Be careful using 6B in neutral when he has 2 Stars. Because Gurren again - can just slide by then and i he  can get  a good whiff punish. 

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Kinda a "universal" fact not much of a litchi specific but people tend to panic burst because y'know - Hakumen hits you and you so how lose 6k +

If he does 41236C (Zantetsu) , try to burst it before the first slash hits you (within a combo ofcourse)  because if he does the first hit and you panic burst > 623A(Gurren) is a natural burst bait.  

Also although litchi can keep him out. Be careful using 6B in neutral when he has 2 Stars. Because Gurren again - can just slide by then and i he  can get  a good whiff punish. 

 

That's Kishuu you're thinking of, Gurren is 214A

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