[CP] Ragna vs Jin

[floatwater]

Discuss Nii~san vs Jin matchup here.

MOST of the frame data and game-plan from EX still applies to CP.

Match Start:

• - His 5C is fast so don't test it.
  

Neutral:

• - His JC, 5C, 2B, and 5D are good pokes and can keep out Ragna pretty well. But we also have answers to those as well.
  

Offense:

• -His 2C is a legit AA now having head invul so don't throw out JC or approach from the air so carelessly now. Also on knockdown a nice OS for his C DP is whiffing a 5A or 2B to react with blocking on recovery. Use 5A it's much better overall. Fubuki A are still free to lows.
  

Defense:

- Ice cars are lows now so don't forget that. He has better ways of opening people up now but that doesn't mean it's not re-actable. Watch for visual cues to block accordingly. TK Hizangeki can be blocked but if you don't you will be eating a chunk of damage. They'll only do it if they have extra 25 heat afterwards for midscreen confirms or in the corner at 25.

Punishes (on block/reaction):

Combo Notes:

I or a Mod will edit this post as more info comes in

[*]-

[*]- 2C is still a go to, so use it. If you feel good use BS against his C or D CP.

[Verimeloni]

http://youtu.be/mmNl75RfsEg?t=5m18s

 

Sibling violence doesn't get much more hype than this. Kogatan's FCs are inspiring.

[Verimeloni]

I need help against Jin, I feel naked in this match-up.

[floatwater]

- You can option select both his DP's with 1A (holding down back while pressing 2A) and doing a meaty as fuck 5B (has to have some sort of space) but this only works for C DP. 

- You can also do a low J.C for air approaches if he does 2C you'll just fall and block
- Neutral your ground game is better than his but his air-to-air pokes are pretty strong
- His pressure mostly revolves around the opp. making wrong guesses or mashing a button somewhere whereas Ragna's overheads can be confirmed off of something meterlessly to the corner for damage. 

Neither character is at a real disadvantage honestly, because one of them does something better than the other or both are even at it.  

Ignore like 99% of what is written at the OP because that is all day one BS holy shit I should fix that.

[LaowPing]

A good Jin can run circle's around Ragna. His neutral game is better and he has more range on his normals so most of the match should be with Jin in control. As crossfire stated, most of Jin's damage comes from you messing up, until he has meter that is. Think of Jin as a different character once has has meter. His mix-up game actually becomes viable at that point. You're goal as Ragna is to get in and stay in. His C DP is easy to beat. It's start-up is longer than it takes to 2A him, so throw out a jab and wait if you want to bait it. You can also use anyone of Ragna's well spaced normals (2B for example) as a meaty and bait it in the exact same fashion. A well spaced 2B or 5B prevents the DP from hitting you and stops him from Rapid Canceling it to make it safe. His D DP has a lot of range so you'll have to respect it  and bait it like normal. Jump after the first hit if he starts charging it in order to avoid the unblockable.

 

Also, if Jin ever uses 6C in a block string you can DP for free. OD and RC are his only options if he doesn't want to eat an inferno divider.

[DJ_Blactricity]

It can go either way. If either gets caught in the others pace it can be bad, but both have the potential to make comebacks. If jin uses 6C its not a free dp. 6C>236A is tight even on ib, and a well spaced 6C hold crush trigger will make ragna's dp whiff. Its great in the corner. Both of our dps can be OSed on wakeup with 2A>1AB

[LaowPing]

It can go either way. If either gets caught in the others pace it can be bad, but both have the potential to make comebacks. If jin uses 6C its not a free dp. 6C>236A is tight even on ib, and a well spaced 6C hold crush trigger will make ragna's dp whiff. Its great in the corner. Both of our dps can be OSed on wakeup with 2A>1AB

It may be tight but as long as it has a gap it's a free dp. I've never seen the 6C crush trigger hold before though.

[DJ_Blactricity]

It may be tight but as long as it has a gap it's a free dp. I've never seen the 6C crush trigger hold before though.

There is no gap. Test it yourself and/or look at the frame data before you say it has a gap. It is airtight.

Edit: Looking at the frame data they could also do 6C>214B and you'll get hit trying to input the dp. Though I wouldnt suggest doing that without meter to make it safe.

[LaowPing]

There is no gap. Test it yourself and/or look at the frame data before you say it has a gap. It is airtight.

Edit: Looking at the frame data they could also do 6C>214B and you'll get hit trying to input the dp. Though I wouldnt suggest doing that without meter to make it safe.

Ice car isn't worth it. It only wallbounces on a airborne opponent and unless Jin RCs he can't get anything worthwhile off of it (which goes back to my point of thinking of Jin as a different character once he has meter). As far as the Hishouken thing goes, according to frame data it's -6. Sure, Jin prevents the DP, but he loses his pressure and gives Ragna a chance to start his. Without meter, Jin using 6C in a blockstring against Ragna doesn't end well.

[DJ_Blactricity]

Ice car isn't worth it. It only wallbounces on a airborne opponent and unless Jin RCs he can't get anything worthwhile off of it (which goes back to my point of thinking of Jin as a different character once he has meter). As far as the Hishouken thing goes, according to frame data it's -6. Sure, Jin prevents the DP, but he loses his pressure and gives Ragna a chance to start his. Without meter, Jin using 6C in a blockstring against Ragna doesn't end well.

It is worth it if you read they will dp. They get hit, you rc to whatever combo knockdown. You lose your pressure by using 236A but you don't get dped. 6C has its uses its a frametrap after 5C and 2C and will catch them jumping. Do you know every gatling after 5C is dp-able except 3C which also forces you to use 236A to end pressure or be punished?

[LaowPing]

It is worth it if you read they will dp. They get hit, you rc to whatever combo knockdown. You lose your pressure by using 236A but you don't get dped. 6C has its uses its a frametrap after 5C and 2C and will catch them jumping. Do you know every gatling after 5C is dp-able except 3C which also forces you to use 236A to end pressure or be punished?

Anything is worth it if the read is right. The issue is how often you're right. Unless I am absolutely sure that Rags would DP, as a Jin player, I wouldn't waste it. Using something that's -6 against Rags basically gives him a chance to start pressure. Jin doesn't want that (The majority of the cast doesn't want that). As for 5C, you can still jump cancel it to bait a DP or even return to neutral where Jin wins. If you do use 3C after it you can force Ragna to respect the low and go for TK Hizangeki for an overhead.

 

But this is a section about Ragna so I'll end with this since I'm tired:

 

Jin doesn't have many viable options after 6C so take advantage.

 

That should sum up everything we've just discussed.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'd say this matchup comes down to who wins in neutral can get the momentum first and in that case, I'd say Jin wins. Both of their normals are pretty damn good, but Jin being able to gatling most of his into 5C and being able to JC on block just makes it really easier for him to get things started. Plus, he's got a full screen projectile compared to Dead Spike. 

 

Fortunately, you have a damn good reversal that can be used to disrespect him most of the time. Unfortunately, he has three reversals and all of them are pretty decent in their own way.

 

 

So yea, it all depends on that neutral and how good you can read reversals.