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floatwater

[CP] Ragna vs Valkenhayn

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Discuss the Ragna vs Wolf normals matchup here:

MOST of the frame data and game-plan from EX still applies on CP.

Match Start:

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Neutral:

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Offense:

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Defense:

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Punishes (on block/reaction):

Combo Notes:

I or a Mod will edit OP as more info comes. Contriboot.

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Ragna and Kokonoe are the only characters with 6A that have head invul from frame 4 onwards. Therefore, if you predict wolf 5C > j.A, you can 6A and get a counter hit.

 

Jumping around in neutral with j.C will prevent Valk's air approach somewhat and restrict him to staying on the ground.

 

Play the ground footsies game, balancing your superior range with his superior speed. (Remember, he can't block:) )

 

Anytime Human Valk uses a special and cancels it into a wolf dash, you can 6A it on reaction.

 

If he tries to antiair you with Wolf 5B, don't forget your Belial Edge to delay your descent.

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If he baits your dragon punch while in wolf form (or tried to play footsies in wolf form) you can hells fang since he can't block. 

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Ragna and Kokonoe are the only characters with 6A that have head invul from frame 4 onwards. Therefore, if you predict wolf 5C > j.A, you can 6A and get a counter hit.

 

Jumping around in neutral with j.C will prevent Valk's air approach somewhat and restrict him to staying on the ground.

 

Play the ground footsies game, balancing your superior range with his superior speed. (Remember, he can't block:) )

 

Anytime Human Valk uses a special and cancels it into a wolf dash, you can 6A it on reaction.

 

If he tries to antiair you with Wolf 5B, don't forget your Belial Edge to delay your descent.

 

 

If he baits your dragon punch while in wolf form (or tried to play footsies in wolf form) you can hells fang since he can't block. 

 

Valk can bait with w7D/w5D and punish you for this, although it's a heavy commitment on his part.  Or he can cancel into 1D and w5C your 6A if he reads you right, although this also requires heavy commitment.  Your advantage in this matchup will be the constant threat of ID, though Valk CAN beat this.  A LOT of wake up mind games until you can turn the tables and murder his weak defensive options.

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Valk can bait with w7D/w5D and punish you for this, although it's a heavy commitment on his part.  Or he can cancel into 1D and w5C your 6A if he reads you right, although this also requires heavy commitment.  Your advantage in this matchup will be the constant threat of ID, though Valk CAN beat this.  A LOT of wake up mind games until you can turn the tables and murder his weak defensive options.

Stylish stop stalking me.

 

But yeah, that is the basic strategy. The only way Ragna can stop vak from rushing him down is to keep him afraid. "Don't mix me up or I'll ID. Don't play footsies or I'll Hell's Fang." Once he changes his patterns to bait your moves, punish that too or simply jump out of the corner. I strongly advice not standing there and trying to block. Valk makes you guess three times before his mixup is over and some of his mix-ups aren't react-able. Don't play his game, make him play yours.

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Don't play footsies or I'll Hell's Fang." Once he changes his patterns to bait your moves, punish that too or simply jump out of the corner.

This is not really advisable, Hell's Fang has terrible recovery and is punishable if Instant Blocked (which is not a problem if you keep throwing it around). It may work once a while and catch some people off guard, but it's not a solid or consistent gameplan you can rely on in this matchup (or any for the matter), which is what every player tries to achieve, solid and consistent play.

It's perfectly possible to beat Valk's neutral with safer and more reliable tools, like well spaced 5B's, j.C's (j.A is also a very good and useful airpoke) and 6A's are good enough to counter most of his advances during wolf mode,and that's what should be done for most part.

Patience is also the key during neutral as the matchup becomes easier when he runs out of wolf meter.

 

I sincerely can't contribute with this matchup because there are literally no good Valk players where I live.

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Hell's fang is for when he's in wolf form, where he can't block. It sets up mind games to let him know he can't go into wolf form and dash in when he wants

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im assuming the real question in this thread is just "but what if wolf is not kill"

 

This is not really advisable, Hell's Fang has terrible recovery and is punishable if Instant Blocked (which is not a problem if you keep throwing it around). It may work once a while and catch some people off guard, but it's not a solid or consistent gameplan you can rely on in this matchup (or any for the matter), which is what every player tries to achieve, solid and consistent play.

It's perfectly possible to beat Valk's neutral with safer and more reliable tools, like well spaced 5B's, j.C's (j.A is also a very good and useful airpoke) and 6A's are good enough to counter most of his advances during wolf mode,and that's what should be done for most part.

Patience is also the key during neutral as the matchup becomes easier when he runs out of wolf meter.

 

I sincerely can't contribute with this matchup because there are literally no good Valk players where I live.

 

5b is ass in this matchup without knowing what to rps to gain respect, especially if you want to footsie vs wolf. Wolf walk speed is too fast, and 5c can easily hit the extended hitbox underneath his leg. obviously the valk doesnt want to play at a closer range, and if you whiff a grounded normal like that he'll just walk in and whiff punish.

 

5b isn't really a point of contention against wolf except for it's speed, but thats at closer ranges. More like, don't let the valk kind of...forget it exists, he shouldnt really be walking in your face but it's in his interest to play a more spaced neutral game, it's simply in his interest for risk/reward. If theyre not really playing smart, take the damage ofc but in the scope of more developed neutral play, it shouldnt see a ton of use.

 

jA is...ok. vs human form mainly, but i'll talk about wolf.

 

Hell's fang is good, a bit hard to deal with, esp in the corner. At least make him scared of it, it can save you a lot of headache vs wolf in neutral. I think its pretty good, honestly lol. A bit difficult for him to jump out of to boot.

 

obviously berial edge exists, its solid but he can still react to it as a jump in, or just walk underneath you and 5b you in either case, if you do it or not. jC kind of dies to wolf 5B, no real way to challenge it up close, compliments berial edge enough to make it tricky for him to AA you if you space yourself in regard to him not being able to wolf-walk underneath your berial edge (he might have to walk back) which is good because it means you can instantly control the space in front of you with falling jC and whatever else when you land, if he tries to walk back in and tag you right as you land from an anticipated jC (technically, he can reasonably demand advantage in a situation where you land playing around with linearity of air options) berial edge will tag him (super high reward on CH, but unfortunately for you, whiffing this will destroy you). jC is a hella safe guess off a neutral jump or upback jump, just dont get too far away haha.

 

This is probably one of the only respect games you can really play vs wolf in this matchup. Risk/reward on almost everything else is just too bad, lol. a lot of single jump CCCCCC. He has other shit he can do like rising jA or whatever to challenge, just deal with it accordingly.

 

dont be afraid to use 5A/6A midpressure, its super legit/safe if you know where a gap will be, and where you can guess safely with like dash 5a to control certain space (esp after forced wolf dash off special moves > transform like 236b~d or something). /keep him midrange/. 5b is almost useless, 5c is alright (good end hitbox) but a lot of recovery :< hells fang is cool, 5A, jC and berial are are your best friends imo.

 

Don't play his game, make him play yours.

 

well, unfortunately we dont have the tools to effectively do this kind of thing (Ragna's "game" isn't really the strongest anyways, haha). What it boils down to is that you HAVE to play his game, you just have to be good at challenging it.

 

TL;DR

 

Wolf puts the burden of approach on him, and thats kind of what you have to play around with. ***You*** can't really approach so effectively vs wolf (especially if you jump too close, he will kill you), but you may be able to take advantage of certain situations given the respect, which leads to Midrange play. A lot of neutral jump/upback. Fake him out. Single jumps primarily, jC forever, backwards airdash jC to control space, berial is a good hard-call for over-extensions in forward movement. First, focus on stopping his approach as safely as possible rather than trying to hit him. Block well (you should be able to see jC, practice!) and disrespect his pressure where you can (IB's, 5A's, 6A's, ofc DP) You do have to be patient, wolf meter does drain relatively fast, so playing centric around "safe" guesses will go farthest. Obviously he can do stuff about it and you cant always keep him out with perfect play (at the end of the day, you're guessing in neutral), but plan around what you have and can enforce best. Just work with the situations that this kind of play creates. Overall you have to not let him walk all over you and ragna can do this relatively well.

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What about j.D as well? Similar startup/recovery and controls a slightly different angle. Although I don't think Valk uses the angle it covers much, I do think it is better at catching the wolf dash jump than j.C.

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J.D works best at catching people who come from the air. If he does that a lot then use it. If he comes from the ground, J.C is better.

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I know what it's better for. My question is more is there a specific reason for not including it (harder confirm options despite similar stats, angle also covered by iabd j.c and safer because nj j.d might lose to wolf dash j.a or other non optimal risk reward scenarios, etc). 

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I think we just forgot about it. It's a strong move in this match up. I've seen a really good Japanese Ragna use it in neutral a lot against Valk. He still lost but it lets valk know not to air wolf in wherever he wants.

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I know. I'm trying to say there is no specific reason as to why we didn't mention it. We most likely just forgot. J.C is the better air to ground but otherwise there is no reason not to use it.

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i replied to mashthat5a on twitter, but IMO jD covers space that, if you can use jD safely, ends up covering angles of approach that the valkenhayn player shouldnt want to pursue at that time.

 

Yes, it can hit certain movements but in situations where you can best guess with it, usually does not do anything unless the valk commits to a pretty bad guess, which...can get utility vs someone doing something bad, but thats the kind of thing you just have to improv and punish, not quite great for matchup theory. There are lots of alternatives, including more traditional means of anti air that can seemingly cover the same situations, maybe even more practically (5A, superjump jA, 6A). Just make sure you don't superjump jA and use your second air action relatively high (he will probably just destroy you for this), going backwards causes you to lose a lot of space but its safer and thats kind of what you have to settle for.

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