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Teyah

Order-Sol vs. Millia

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I am transplanting my post to this new thread, as the Media thread probably isn't the right place for this sort of discussion.

On Hoss vs Millia:

It's actually a fairly balanced match. While hos has jp millia hs jk, and while yes you can stuff millia's 2d with hos 2s, you have to be close enough, and realistically if millia is on the ground shes not going to put her pixie lifebar on the line to trade pokes with hos, and in most situations she isn't even going to be on the ground any way:vbang:

Honestly, this matchup is not that balanced - it's easily one of Millia's worst and probably one of Order-Sol's best. It's true that Millia does best in the air, but she has to contend with Order-Sol j.P which is arguably the best air normal in the game in terms of risk/reward. It's not wise for her to throw out j.K, as it's very laggy on whiff, leaving you open for potential j.Ps. Millia can use her own j.P to similar effect, but it's much harder for her to convert into anything meaningful since a gatling to j.K-D requires extreme closeness (j.P CH j.H is possible though). Order-Sol can of course, easily convert to 25-30% damage on Millia via j.K djc. whatever -> SV, or get free pressure on block.

Another problem for Millia players lies in that she can't run her usual long range game, as even that stuff is risky vs OS: he can dash under j.D and punish her on landing recovery, or IAD/jump/running 2S to beat her 2D. 2S in general seems to beat a lot of her pokes, and nets easy, safe damage via 2S CH 6H.

One similarity both characters share is difficulty in AAing: Order-Sol j.H cleanly beats all of Millia's AA if it hits directly above her head, while the same can be said for Millia j.S. Both characters have other options: OS can Gunblaze or j.P for AA, while Millia generally blocks or backdashes for distance. Millia's 6P is decent as AA, but it is very laggy and gets her killed on whiff.

A good portion of this match is generally spent jockeying for air position, with Millia looking for an opening to start ground -> air pressure and mixup, while Order-Sol shuts her down with j.P, leading to either ATG pressure or a basic aircombo -> SV for decent damage. If Millia isn't successful in scoring a hit, she's forced back to the ground and Order-Sol is free to run his superior neutral game.

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I'd say its in OS's favor, because SV blocks 70% of Millia's mixup game(which is what makes her strong).

Asides from when there is a ring over your head on wakeup and Millia is running/air dashing in with the mixup.

In those cases, SV is a horrible idea that says "free combo" for Millia.

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Nope, delayed S disc works. Believe me, I've had it done to me enough times when I've been SV reversal twitchy.

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It's delayed after the knockdown so that it just becomes active as you wakeup.

In midscreen Millia has the crossup / non crossup shenanigans with discs which will screw up trying to reverse with SV off the floor.

In the corner you can't necessarily block Millia's mixup on reaction, you have to commit to high or low guard. And if you're going to try and use SV as way to stop her mixup, there's oki she can do that'll be safe against it and will be able to punish afterwards.

Check out the safe jump at 2:44 and watch Kaqn get punished:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv2CNnQ63bM

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Nope, delayed S disc works. Believe me, I've had it done to me enough times when I've been SV reversal twitchy.

It's 236H, or H Disc. :P

Millia's 6K and 2K will both recover in time for her to block Lv1 or Lv2 SV, if done meaty. Hitting meaty with these moves (particularly 6K) is not as simple as it sounds, given that you need to set up your Disc first, and you only have so much time after a knockdown. I'm not sure (and can't test atm), but ending aircombos in the corner with ADC j.D should allow Millia time to land and go directly into 236H + 6K while still remaining safe from SV. Ending with j.D xx Pin, land 6H xx Disc, also allows for meaty normals, so watch for these setups when deciding whether or not to risk an SV.

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It's 236H, or H Disc. :P

No, I'm not talking about delayed HS disc, I'm talking about using S disc but inserting the delay between the knockdown and the setting of the disc yourself. Call it a late S disc if you will.

zer0kage was showing it me a while back.

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There is no 'setting of the disc' in 236S, it's basically a one-shot, high priority attack that acts like a normal move. It won't beat out SV since SV is invincible: the best you can hope for is a dodge, which would have happened anyway, had you done the 236S or not. If you're talking about using S Disc as oki, that's one very expensive bait (you give up a rare chance at corner oki) that's not really worth doing unless your opponent is extremely predictable. It beats backdashes and sloppy jumps on wakeup, but nobody should be doing either of these two things when cornered against Millia.

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Ok to clarify what I was saying further:

No, I'm not talking about delayed HS disc, I'm talking about using S disc but inserting the delay between the knockdown and inputting the command of the disc yourself. Call it a late S disc if you will.

So, zer0kage was experimenting getting knockdown in midscreen, then delaying his timing then doing a S disc. Quite late. It caught me out a few times (maybe my SVs weren't perfect reversals tbh, my memory of those precise situations is a little foggy).

But the moral of this story is, SV does not defeat 70% of Millia's mixup game, since there are several things she can do to get around reversal SV (and punish HOS for trying it).

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That doesn't change the fact that Millia still has dangerous reversal safe mixup at her disposal. If you honestly are going to give the matchup to hos on the merits of SV alone, I'm not sure how qualified you are to actually discuss this. Hell, with an h disc on you the only option that is some what safe is jumping, and that can be countered fairly easily. Everything else is going to either get hit by the disk or put you in blockstun infront of millia. As for commiting to blocking high or low, with the exception of car frc to jk, everything is fairly blockable on reaction, given you have experience fighting millia. I'm not saying it's easy but stuff like 6k shouldn't be unblockable for you. Bad moon can only come after jcable moves so it is also slightly predictable. I still stand by an even matchup rating. Hos has clear advantages in areas, but millia's overall stronger game pretty much evens it out in my eye. Sure you might get jped once or twice but thats not the end of the world, and in like 90% of all instances wont lead to kd, whereas any kd can potentially lead into a cycle of death. Oh yeah, and if you're going to try something ballsy to get out of millia lockdown, intelligent dead angling is far and away your best bet.

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As for commiting to blocking high or low, with the exception of car frc to jk, everything is fairly blockable on reaction, given you have experience fighting millia. I'm not saying it's easy but stuff like 6k shouldn't be unblockable for you. Bad moon can only come after jcable moves so it is also slightly predictable.

I'm not talking about 6K or Bad Moon (6K is pretty slow), I'm talking about low altitude air dashes in the corner, she can hit you as she falling for an overhead or land a go low with 2K. That kind of stuff you can't block on reaction, it's the same with I-No's hoverdash and j.K/2K or Dizzy's corner stuff (since she also has double airdash as with Millia and can further mix you up by hitting you with a jumping move, then airdash into going high or low again).

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That is staple mixup for many characters though, seeing as any one can take advantage of late airdash high/low mixup. Dizzy/Ino/Venom/Millia just take away the easy options for dealing with the mixup by forcing you to block projectiles before the mixup. That said, you can block that in reaction. You block high until they can no longer go high, and of course guessing can make it easier but guessing gives your opponent the power to trick you.

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Hintalove: I'm not saying SV is the attack full of magic and flulff, but it will bother Millia quite a bit. She can't just do the same thing she can do against characters that don't have such a move at their disposal and dealing with SV makes her play OS's game. As for the double airdash vs land 2K/S mixup, if there's no disc covering her at this point, that mixup point should also be a SV point. You need to be good at IGing to do that though, if you feel manly you could go for slashback.

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As for commiting to blocking high or low, with the exception of car frc to jk, everything is fairly blockable on reaction, given you have experience fighting millia. I'm not saying it's easy but stuff like 6k shouldn't be unblockable for you. Bad moon can only come after jcable moves so it is also slightly predictable.

Bad Moon has 16F startup, 13F of which can be seen (once she jumps), which is borderline unblockable on reaction. BM is generally done via TK, with either 2K/2S as the alternative. When done from a JCed normal such as 5K or 5Sc, remember that Millia can always go to 2K/2S as well.

6K does have slow-ish startup at 20F, but it is tough to react to since it has 10 distinct individual frames of animation before the attack hits - meaning that there's no 'key frame' for you to pick out to react to, unlike most overheads in the game (Sol 5D or Testament 6P are 2 good examples of this).

I still stand by an even matchup rating. Hos has clear advantages in areas, but millia's overall stronger game pretty much evens it out in my eye. Sure you might get jped once or twice but thats not the end of the world, and in like 90% of all instances wont lead to kd, whereas any kd can potentially lead into a cycle of death.

I'm just curious, but what examples can you give of 'Millia's overall stronger game'? In my view (and those of most Millia players from what I've heard about this matchup) it's actually the reverse of what you said, Millia only holds the advantage in certain areas (oki, ATG game w/Pin) while Order-Sol has the advantage at all other times.

Also j.P almost completely shuts down Millia's air game, you really should be giving that move more credit. There are plenty of OS vids out there that show how effective it can be. Keep in mind that it's almost no risk to toss out in this matchup, will beat out or clash and then beat out Millia's air normals 90+% of the time, and leads to 25-30% on hit or guard-gauge jackup + pressure on block. Lack of knockdown after isn't a big deal because OS is so strong at neutral in this matchup anyway.

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A 10-point summary on the posts for the inaugural first 2 pages of the HOS-Millia Matchup Thread, and some of my opinions. 1. S disc on wakeup is not good. 2. Order-Sol does stupid damage to Millia any random chance he lands a hit. 3. Order-Sol has more rewarding pokes for that than Millia. 4. Millia has to somehow knockdown Order-Sol to start her strong okizeme (what she is better at than HOS) to seal the game. And not let him escape. 5. Read point 2. and 3. 6. S Disc on wakeup is not good. 7. Millia's okizeme is hard to block indeed. Props to Teyah for explaining why is that, and why S Disc on wakeup isn't very good, and not having his head explode. 8. - 10. Well i guess i couldn't count, lol. My personal experience here against Millia players isn't high level but I deal with proper oki and decent zoning so i know whats its like. Rock It is a decent tool to use as an offensive range poke-special in neutral against Millia. Its impossible to react to, the most that'll happen to you is a trade, where Millia lands face down and depending on what she used, you will most probably won't be knocked down. In Slash I used to rely on it to fish for random air counters into a stupid air combo. In AC you get a sliding knockdown which is fairly easy to run after to start your pressure, or if you're very close, you can instead do a S H iad j.p j.h SV combo. Best used in conjunction with f.S, 2S and sweep. Millia on the ground is afraid of fighting footsies because she doesn't want to risk a big CH into stupid damage with high stun or knockdown. Millia seems to have a little trouble getting that knockdown on the ground doesn't it seem? She wants to try avoid dealing with all those big attacks and focus on one of her strengths, the air pin attack! Thats one thing that'll give HOS a problem. Once Millia's in the air you'd be waiting for the pin to drop (forgive the pun). But what if she doesn't? You'll have to bust out your anti-airs if she just comes in without it! HOS has some cool tools to deal with pin-less neutral ground-to-air situations. like 5H whenever you see Millia somewhere in the 'She's gonna do it!' zone, which is about 2-3 character lengths in the air in front of you. Millia trying to land a j.D knockdown will find herself eating a simple 260 damage combo from a 5H counterhit. Gunblaze also keeps an aggressive Millia wary in case your 5H gets too predictable and she might throw the pin but didn't. Usually ends in a neutral position again, and she picks up that pin. Hopefully she blocks or gets hit by the flame of pillar, which would be a plus for you. After all that she finally lands a knockdown on you, because you zoned wrong on the ground or got pin staggered. If on her okizeme you don't Storm Viper into an S disc, there's a fairly good chance you'll get back into neutral position. And the whole bother for Millia starts all over again. Its a hard match for her, and its not worked like the 'Insert zone/whore character' vs Pot matchup where Pot gets a rare but solid knockdown and takes 2 big combos to score a round win. She has to deal 3-4 combos to win, which are almost exclusive to oki setups, while all Order-Sol needs to do is to be patient and wait for the many opportunities to escape: after he blocks that mixup, he gets burst back in time for being so hard to kill, or he gets tension to DAA. Order Sol doesn't need tension all that much to seal the match. Usually you'll find after several gimped j.p comboes on Millia at the start of the match it doesn't take much more to finish her off. That's about it. Its not impossible for Millia to win, but Order-Sol doesn't have to work hard for the matchup.

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@Akira: Yo.. I don't feel bad now, he couldn't block that crap that Milia does when she puts down a disk and jumps around your head... How the hell do you block that cheese?

First of all you don't want to end up in the situation to start with. Secondly, you can SV option select kicking her in the ass if she crosses you up but ends up with you FDing if she doesn't.

Now, before we get all touchy, these results shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Woshige is from top level and Maddo is from around that level. As I stated before, Sanma isn't that good; at least, not yet.

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First of all you don't want to end up in the situation to start with.

Irrelevant because its common sense that nobody wants to be knocked down.

Secondly, you can SV option select kicking her in the ass if she crosses you up but ends up with you FDing if she doesn't.

Uh huh, you SV and it gets blocked and you get raped. Better to just learn to block imo.

Now, before we get all touchy, these results shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Woshige is from top level and Maddo is from around that level. As I stated before, Sanma isn't that good; at least, not yet.

Bet you can't beat him $p

Just remember: I'm the worst OS here. Full time job + schoo = pwnt.

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Its not just being knocked down, he puts himself in the situations where Woshige can just set him up for about every damn mixup possible even outside knockdown situations. Remember that when she crosses you up she either has to roll late or airdash. In neither case she is able to block, let alone punish you. Sure the SV could whiff against the airdash, but you're then still 100% safe because you'll be landing at about the same time Millia does. I can't beat Sanma, neither can anyone here. BUT, in Japan he simply isn't the best; or top level; or whatever you would want to think of him. And job+school = bs excuse, you still got weekends :P

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So what so what, stop knockin the guy lol. Besides I'm talkin about blockin that move not c.blockin Sanma. If I'm not mistaken, you can't fully SV out of the disk? I just don't trust it.. Edit: Never said I didn't use my weekends $p

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GB might work, especially on higher levels. But, the disc cannot be meaty in that case and you can't option select it as its already a move done from back. The SV option select I mentioned works because SV can only be done forward, so when not getting crossed up you will FD. With GB, if you get crossed up, you will get Ri instead and if you do it in the opposite direction you get the inverse result and that means you're still gambling.

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