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[CP] Relius Clover vs Ragna the Bloodedge

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Discuss the Ragna matchup here.

The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

You have plenty of options here, while Ragna himself has almost none at all, and has to close the gap before getting hit by geara lugia or ignis.

Your main tools will be the 214 trio, 22b/c. 214a stops horizontal movement nicely, preventing Ragna from easily running in. 214b isn't as useful here as Ragna won't be doing much that warrants a punish at this range. Use it as an alternative way to get ignis in, with 22c coverage so he can't punish it. 214c is your main approach to start your game. Use it around 3/4 screen so it will track Ragna unless he decides to back away which resets the situation in your favor. It can also be used after 214a If you know the Ragna will not attempt to dismiss her. 22b and 22c are your doll-less zoning tools in this matchup. Use them to pre-emptively discourage movement attempts and stall for time. There isn't anything Ragna can do about it unless you whiff, in which case he can close the gap and be in a more threatening position.

Ragna has a moveset of almost completely physical moves which is not great when It comes to ignis, with all of his main pokes having this attribute and being fast, with long hitboxes. This means most of his attacks if they connect with ignis will dismiss her, and then he has a huge chance to get in and end the round, so don't go crazy with ignis. His main pokes will be 5b, ja, 5c, hell's fang. Most of these are just to dismiss ignis at a safe range so he can get in. Against 5b, you can dash or airdash in as he hits the doll; he can't jump cancel but he'll still be able to use his long range ground normals/anti air, so be careful. There isn't much you can do about ja except try not to let ignis get hit by it. Hell's fang is a gimmicky way to punish some of relius's grounded offense. It has amazing horizontal coverage but without heat it is unsafe. Still, you don't want to find yourself blocking this, else you find yourself in a moderate risk/reward position. You can punish if you led ley through it with 5b. Ignis 2d will also auto guard it if she's in front of you.

Medium Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

This is more in Ragna's favor than yours, particularly if you don't have ignis out. Here your tools will be more movement oriented. Back dash, air back dash, led ley with ignis, these all play an important part in whether you win this game.

Some notable offensive tools are 214a, which is harder for Ragna to punish at this range. Don't be afraid to use it without ignis summoned if you have over half the doll gauge: the longer you stay at neutral in this position, the higher your chance of getting bit, so act quickly. 214c comes out as soon as ignis is within range of Ragna, after a bit of startup. If he is afraid to press buttons this is the perfect move to use. It will also stop his air dashes in, so he'll have to superjump over her. If you get this out here you control the situation, mostly. 5b is the same startup as his 5b, with less recovery and it will be your go to poke for creating space and starting/keeping your offense. 6c is a sparingly useful tool to throw out as it is your longest range normal. Use it to stuff obvious dashes at specific ranges, and as a pre-emptive counterpoke. Without the doll you lose a lot of options, so 5b and excellent movement will have to suffice. Your goal is either to get him to block the doll or to retreat safely to full screen so you can zone.

This is probably Ragna's strongest position besides being in your face, he has a lot of tools to shut down your doll and you, sometimes simultaneously. Starting with how 5b, an 8f startup, long range kick that plows through ignis if she's not using a move with auto guard. Because of its range, do not try to challenge this move. Try to avoid having to block or get hit by it at all if it could be managed, as that basically is the start of his decent offense. To get around it, make your movements unpredictable, so he'll have to guess between 5b and taking to the air. His 5c is a slower, longer version of his 5b and definitely defeats most of relius's tools here. Led ley through it or otherwise avoid it if possible. Try to have ignis out as much as possible and don't let him dismiss her without you getting in and pressuring him.

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs His Tools

Whoever gets here obviously has a huge advantage over the other; Relius has tight blockstrings with ignis with amazing lockdown, but can only do it for so long if he doesn't score a hit. Without ignis, his pressure becomes simpler to break out of, and trying for a mixup is unsafe, leading to a linear, predictable stall play style. Ragna has the advantage of stuffing multiple defensive options at once with his huge normals such as jump/back dash with 5b, and his moves recover fast enough to stuff led ley if it is tried.

For Relius, the gameplan is simple; pressure while beating his traditional movement-based defense, and offensive reversal, Inferno Divider. It is an excellent tool starting on frame 1 with its invincibility, air unblockable, and momentum shift while possibly dismissing ignis. Jump barrier beats it, and so does led ley if you sense it coming. If he has 50 heat he will almost certainly gain momentum on bit or block, so with ignis, the latter option is preferable in that situation. If you see him instant blocking, get ready to led ley.

if he gets you, you pretty much have to respect his pressure and block well while looking for outs. On e he uses 5c, you can pretty much 5a/led ley/ back dash/ jump to beat his options.

(not sure of Ragna's frame data yet so I'll have to give general escape methods for now).

after 5c, he has:

2d, a low with no gap. If he does this and you do anything but block, you will be forced into oki or com led into oki on ch/50 heat

214b, command overhead. Ib 5c and your 5a should hit him out of it.

blood scythe(input?) looks like the overhead but isn't. Very slow but plus on block. You can 2c fatal this easy. Do not try to jump this especially in the corner. On block he basically gets another chance at pressure. If you get ch by this then...

2c on whiff is a tricky way for him to try to counter bit you. Super jump out if you see it coming.

214a. Yes, some Ragna's will hells fang with heat if they really want pressure badly. Once again, ib 5c led ley and you should be fine.

His standing high is 6b and lows are 2b and 3c. 6b works from 2a, 2b, and 2c. Led ley is free here. Ib 2b to punish. 2a is simply a free punish if you see it coming. In general always try to instant block 2b so you can attempt to escape.

In The Air: Your Tools vs His Tools

You have j.xd to control space at will and move ignis to desirable positions. His jb and jc especially heat this reliably so you'll have to take those times to re position or quickly get in. Use air dash instant ja to get in from about mid screen, locking down his chance to dp you. Jb doesn't really challenge anything but can be used sort of for air to air approaches. Jc is for steep jump ins, use sparingly and early without ignis support.

when close by, Ragna's air normals give you sort of a hard time. Rising ja is annoying to deal with, meet it with your own ja. Don't try to challenge jc if you're grounded. If you attempt to super jump to summon ignis, his jd can score counter hit combos, but don't be scared of it either, just be wary that you can be punished for doing so.

Offense

Your Offense:

His Offense:

Defense

Your Defense:

His Defense:

Gimmicks and Resets

Match Summary

​Heavily momentum based. Relius has a distinct advantage in the neutral in that he is able to zone. Ragna can dismiss ignis rather easily so Relius must be mindful of his movement and offensive choices. If either can close the gap he can win rounds. I'd say this matchup is even or at most 5.5-4.5 Relius.

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I havnt realized until today how afraid I am to mixup Ragna. It feels like every Ragna player knows you're mixup is slow and obvious, and has ID ready to slap you in the face with it whenever. I'm just to afraid to use half the tools I have available. Whenever I get hit with ID, it doesn't feel like they were planning it, but more along the lines of "lol, I see that overhead/empty jump". How you spose to do mixup on a guy who destroys frametraps? Dx

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Make them afraid to DP. Teach them that Relius is not one to be messed with, and that dependency is a dangerous thing. Ley is a powerful teaching tool in that regard, if you so much as think they are going to ID use it, and get the punish. Once a Ragna has 50 meter the chance they'll use ID increases exponentially, as they can use a rapid to save their hide from the tanning it so rightly deserves, Ley doesn't give them the chance to rapid, so take advantage of the opponent's naivete of this. If you do block and they do rapid, get ready to 4D, because the overwhelming majority of Ragnas will just gracefully j.C their way into a counter hit.

Against most Ragnas, I honestly feel that mixup is to trying to trick them into DPing your guard by doing things that look scary. Take note of what situation they're in when they do it, or what move they have just blocked, the next time they're in that situation block instead of attack and they get blown up. I know Lanto is a popular DP bait, as well as 2D(1) (everyone and their grandma knows that you can do a invulnerable move inbetween the gap in 2D, what they don't know is that we know that too.)

In the corner, mixup is often as simple as load 236D->forward jump->barrier block as they finish teching. If they don't DP you still have the chance to mix them up.

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I thought you could fatal his blood scythe with 2c, but one just fataled me when i tried, is it a timing thing?, can you do it on both the ground and air versions?

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Thr ground version can occasionally hit you if you time it wrong, and sometimes its a trade that's maybe barely in your favor. Anyway, the ground version is the only one that's + on block. The air version from what I could tell from the frame data will be at most +2 if you barrier blocked it. Any other time, its got 18 blockstun with 18 landing recovery, so if they do it from higher than tk height, they'll end up being - on block. In other words, time 2C on ground version, block or preferably IB air version.

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