[CP] Relius Clover vs Carl Clover

[TD]

Discuss the Carl matchup here.

The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

Medium Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs His Tools

In The Air: Your Tools vs His Tools

Offense

Your Offense:

His Offense:

Defense

Your Defense:

His Defense:

Gimmicks and Resets

Match Summary

[NecroTheReaper]

Something fun I found out in this matchup, if a Carl thinks he doesn't have to respect ignis oki because of vivace, corner crossunder 3C>214C will screw up his inputs and if he somehow does reactionary vivace to go with the crossup, he'll vivace right back into the corner. Granted, there are plenty of ways to make carl respect your oki as is.

I've also played this matchup a lot, so I'll get some more info in here eventually.

Long Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

At this range, both of you have tools to do stuff, but generally Ignis>Ada. Volante is beaten by any ignis move, and fuoco has a long startup which you can usually force carl to block with smart uses of Lugia. IADing from this distance I'd say is safer for Carl than for Relius imo, but its still dangerous to close distance either way.

Medium Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

Your normals are faster, safer, and longer range than his, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. Unless you have ignis (which you should), Carl can easily vivace and call Ada, putting you in a CON situation. However, with ignis, generally you'd beat out alot of his moves. However, he still has Ada, and your 2000lb gorilla of a daughter has a lot of moves that could screw you. Most notably, Carl's new Terrenezza (46D). It has a fast startup and keeps you blocking for a long time, plus has a lot of range (might have super armor, kinda behind with my Carl). There's also all of her old moves like her 4D which will smack you for high damage if you don't pay attention, 6D, a decent poke, and Brio, the always rediculous anti-air. In short, you>Carl Ada>Ignis generally.

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs His Tools

Safest and most dangerous area, but more dangerous for you since a lot of Carl's moves are fast, short range pokes. His 2A and 5A are both faster than yours, he can easily put you in a CON situation from here using them. And its even worse of he has Ada nearby or a Volante running around. If you're at neutral in this distance, don't mash mindlessly, you might regret it.

In The Air: Your Tools vs His Tools

His j.A is one of the fastest moves in the game, but it also has pitiful range. j.B has more range, but its not as fast. Generally your normals aren't suited for an air to air situation, but luckily his puppet can't float behind him and punch you in the face. Also, your airgrab does more for you than his does for him imo, since you can get 3k without ignis easily with it and still retain oki.

Offense

Your Offense:

Carl has no real defensive options, but he does have a real small hitbox that might make jump mixup less desirable since he has plenty of time to vivace. Proper use of ignis will obviously stop this, but its still an option he has. However, he still has faster pokes than you, so if you try and get him to mash, he might just get you. Still unlikely, but keep an eye. His CA can be annoying, but it has bad range for a CA, plus ley is amazing if you read it right.

His Offense:

His pressure when compared to you is longer and more dangerous, but its also not complete lockdown like yours is. If you get into CON situation, be calm. Try and make him waste as much Ada meter as possible since she recharges so slowly. Blocking though will be difficult, he is one of the best mixup characters (if not the best) with a ton of crossup, throw, and high-low UB setups. Using a CA or a burst might be a good idea in this situation, though he's just as good as you when it comes to baiting them.

Defense

Your Defense:

You've got 4 defensive options generally: ley, backstep, gear super, and CA. Backstep is the best if you can use it, followed by CA, but none of these options are guaranteed, especially since Carl has 2 bodies lol. One thing that should be noted is that if he tries to go for a j.B-3D UB setup, they'll usually auto-pilot into a CT to get rediculous damage, using led ley will beat this xD. This will generally cut their combo potential pretty badly if they start catching on and go into another normal or grab if you ley.

His Defense:

He's got most of the same options as you, minus a DD with invincibility. His vivace can get him out of a lot of situations that involve ignis, but generally, unless he has 50 meter to CA, you can do what you want. He does have a good AA though, so be careful for delayed air dash pressure cuz it could be easily stuffed.

Gimmicks and Resets

Always watch out for the UBs. He's got a lot of em, with several ways of goin into em. If he vivaces out of Ignis corner oki often, as stated above, you can do corner crossunder 3C so he can't vivace out of the corner.

Match Summary

Imo, not as tough as in extend since he no longer gets 5A's into CON situations that give him 50 heat+oki. I'd say its 5-5

[NecroTheReaper]

Out of curiosity, how do you guys go about dealing with volante (421D)? I know there's several things you can do, like jump over it, block it, led ley it, let ignis take it, etc... but I'm not sure what Carl can do for each of these various ways. Im assuming using 6D to eat it is the safest, but ideas are good.

[Myoro]

If I'm at neutral I usually just keep rushing him in a way that j.XD will hit/ make carl block and tank the projectile simultaneously. If I can't physically set that up it means he's far enough away for me to safely jump over it.

 

If for some reason he's got one out while you're pressuring him 6D/4D depending on direction it's coming from is good, but jump/ley+ignis move is just as good. 214A can steam roll it Nirvana and Carl at the same time.

 

You might also be able to "catch" it with 22X like we can with Izayoy's sonic sabres. For the lolz you know.

[NecroTheReaper]

Gotcha. Was curious since I was playin a friend last night, I sware he picks up any character and goes into "now I'm gonna mimic the top JP players" and proceeded to faceroll me like 10x in a row. I felt like every mach though

i was respecting volante waaaay too much.

Also, any ignis-less solution you have to beat his backdash+46D/623D wakeup options?

[Myoro]

Does Lanto not work? Try lyra, that does wonders for backdashes and you don't risk going near Ada or putting Ignis in harms way. If Ada's trying to 46D you I see no reason not to punch her if she's in front of you (use 2B from a small distance to not get 623D'd, and combo into Lanto to catch carl)

 

If she's behind you then just keep dashing at Carl until you're out of her range and bait his backdash with 5B->6D or somethin'. If being near the corner prevent's this use led ley->6D to bait this, because Carl can't get away.

[NecroTheReaper]

Its honestly the first time this has hit me, but the layout was N-R-C-wall. Carl backdashed while she did 46D from behind, and I was low on ignis (last combo ended with 3C>5D). I could've jumped back, but he could've gotten out. Thinking back, I may have been able to do an IAD j.A since its got a bazillion active frames, but once again, he could just 623D for full combo

[Myoro]

You could just Vinum the boy if that's the case. I assume you'd have 50 gauge to spare?

[NecroTheReaper]

Probably, but damn that would be a hard read.

[NecroTheReaper]

This blew my mind cuz of frame data. How does his 13f 6B beat our 8f 5B from starting position? Maybe I just didn't press it at the right time, but this didn't make numerical sense to me. Even if the move didn't hit max range until the last active, that's still 11f. If the frame data is wrong (or a 1.1 buff/nerf) I'd be accepting of it, but this... i can't think of a way to describe my confusion

[bakahyl]

Most likely because the Carl delayed his 6b while you immediately pressed 5b and he hitted you on your recovery of 5b

Probably the same case for Mu's 5c vs Relius' 5b

[NecroTheReaper]

I hope, cuz I don't have a replay and it looked like I was getting beat out of startup consistently.

[Myoro]

I only really use 5B poke as a round starter in vs Tager. If he doesn't block or jump he gets hit. If he does block or jump you recover in time to anti air or evade any move after blocking.

 

In vs Carl I airdash over while summoning Ignis, to go straight for Ada and start reducing his gauge immediately. Obviously it's not a perfectly safe round starter, but I find I can do it a couple times before the Carl catches on.

[NecroTheReaper]

I only started trying to 5B because he was using 6B every other round opener. I was thinking 5B could beat it out, but I kept getting CH'd for a 4k combo or burst.