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4Corners

Zappa v Baiken

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I'm pretty new to competitive GG, so I want to get as much as I can from the forums here. How does this match-up work? It's already forcing me to start paying attention to her tension, for fear of being countered. What works when how and why, and what should I never do? Thanks.

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You should always fear her counters even if Baiken doesn't have any tension. Baku is fast but it only does damage unless she spends 50%. I would more worry about her other counters. I think that you can crouch under her H counter (Ouren) but I never tried it so I don't know. Just throwing out my speculation here. But if you can bait, you can even get an air-grab that works for sure.

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So how do I rush her down? How do I lock her down? I've noticed that the sword does fairly well against her, since you can outpoke her easily, and if she tries to counter 5hs when you space it right, it ends up just leaving her wide open. Ghosts just kinda annoy the both of you, and the dog, while good, has this nasty habit of getting hit. Like most match-ups, I think the dog is the best answer, but I want to know what she can do, and how I can beat it. D: Thanks for everything so far.

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Just like with every other character, fighting Baiken is all about mindgames and Yomi. Unsummon: -This is probably the easiest mode to fight most baiken's with. This is because if your smart and fast enough, you can punish nearly every one of her counters with Summon. The idea is to begin putting on pressure and see how and when they try to counter; some baikens will try to counter immediately, others will counter at the end or near the end of a block string. -Mixups! It's a bit difficult for baiken's to do a low gaurd counter, though I know many can do it reliably and with little problems, but since Zappa has so many lows, throwing in an overhead will really help throw them off. -Grabbing is very good in this fight. Since baiken's only option on wakeup is to block, grab, or gaurd counter, you have the advantage of being able to set up a grab-safe poke, f.S. Because this is such a quick move and has long enough range, none of her counters are effective. Even the HS counter can be blocked. -Getting a summon is the easy part of this fight, in my opinion. Ghosts: -Pressure, pressure, Pressure. The way the ghosts work makes it pretty difficult for Baiken to counter, though not impossible. Play safe and smart, and watch for certain counters to punish them (HS toss beats HS counter, K stuffs P counter (works in the air)). -Once you get a haunting, you have to be wary of the projectiles. If you're not paying attention and the baiken uses a counter on them to hit you, it can cost the match. The idea around this is to get a haunting, then either mixup or grab her to make her vulnerable. -That's about it, nothing too fancy for the ghosts as long as your smart. Sword: -This is probably the riskiest summon for this fight. With so many easy chances for her to counter the sword, it makes it a gamble to try to do anything with it. Even I would say that it wouldn't be a bad idea to unsummon it in this fight. Nonetheless, it can still be effective because of the speed and range of it's pokes, and it's great anti-airs. -The only good part about the sword for this fight is that you can do some great mixup, as well as do a single attack and be able to block before the counter hits (in most general cases). -Still, really risky and hard to use effectively in this fight. Better off without it... Dog: -Probably the best in the fight, hands down. Unblockable setups, the ability to eat counters, and once again good pressure can put Baiken in a bad spot real fast. -The tricky part about using the dog here is to space it properly. If the dog is too far away to poke her when she attacks, or to eat a hit when she rushes in, it's useless. However, if you can get a single knockdown, you can use the dog to get unblockable setups. -Pushing them into the unblockable is risky and difficult. Any good baiken will simply do the S counter and kill either you or the dog with the invulnerability and then FRC to make it safe. Raou: -Kind of a bad idea in this fight. With the same concerns as the sword in mind, Raou can still be effective in certain situations. -HS Counter is the biggest issue here. It's the only counter that has the range to hit Raou besides P counter to 6HS or something. The best way to deal with this is to bait it, and then try to Edguy (sometimes difficult due to range and crossup options). If done properly, it will completely beat out the HS counter. -Darkness anthem is good counter bait because of it's range and frame advantage. Grabs are even more important now because of how aggressive they expect raou to be. This fight is really difficult to do, but zappa can use his own tricks to get around her counters, as well as her normal moves. Patience and being able to understand what your opponent might do is very important in this fight, or else you'll just get dustlooped.:psyduck:

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Watch few youtube matches and you will understand this game is totally different. If you poke something out mindlessly, you get countered/comboed into KD and whole shabam. Two things you need to do in this game are throw baiken a lot and bait her counters. Throw out moves that have good recovery (Ghost 5P for example). Even though Baiken's guard cancel moves are good, they all leave Baiken at disadvantage if missed or blocked.

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So, how exactly does her counter work, then? Does she have to predict whether you're doing mid, overhead, or low, or can she just use it for whatever? Also, I dunno if we should discuss it here or in the main forums, but what's Zappa's best wake-up options? I like the centipedes, but when you stand up and suddenly 236p becomes a ghost toss, you kinda get raped. Suggestions? Most the people I play don't stay close enough to just grab when I'm waking up.

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She can use guard-cancel moves whenever she is 'blocking'. High&Low mix-up still works as long as it hits but if it gets blocked, the guard-cancel is expected to come out. That's why you can't just charge in and use moves that has bad recovery.

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So, do I still get the frame advantage on things like DA on block, or can she just cancel it? Should I just play counter-bait/super grabby, and abandon pressure unless I have the dog to eat her shit?

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Remember kids, 6P goes through the important counter (the S one). Throw it into your strings at their favorite Guard Cancel times for fun and profit. Airthrows are really important here to since she will be wanting to lay those mats on you, learn the spacing where you can grab her out of that (helpful against jHS as well). 4Corners, the best reversal move for Zappa always has been and always will be blocking. Everything else is a gamble pure and simple. And I'm a gambling man.

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I'm having trouble figuring out just how much range Zappa's airthrow has. Like, I kinda see it in training mode, but in practice, I end up airdashing in and jHSing instead. Can you not grab while airdashing? Does Zappa gain any good reversals when he's in Raou, or should I still block?

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You can't grab someone after air-dashing. You can airthrow your opponent when he is right above you. Try this little niffty air-throw set up for ghost, it will give you an idea: j.HS - 5K5S - j.PP - jc. opponent tech - 6(or 4) HS air throw Last edgy is useful reversal but not really safe. You can always give up Raou and use OD. But blocking is generally a good idea.

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Hey, if you're fighting a Baiken that loves to airdash in with that club of hers, don't forget that you can always jump up and grab her! Alternatively, 236p when naked!

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Hey, if you're fighting a Baiken that loves to airdash in with that club of hers, don't forget that you can always jump up and grab her! Alternatively, 236p when naked!

Doesn't the range of the air attack prevent you from doing this? She's got some length to the club.

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Doesn't the range of the air attack prevent you from doing this? She's got some length to the club.

It's a little weird, positioned properly Zappa's airgrab beats ANYTHING in the air (yes, even slayers jHS and May's jHS and other air shenanigans). The trick, though, is that you must be underneath and slightly to the side of them for the throw to work; Therfore, his airgrab is almost entirely only a defensive move. However, that totally works for Zappa, because he already has some great anti-airs and airgrabbing people always nets big advantages for him.

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For the love of god, though, don't throw a p toss ghost after an air grab. I keep doing this, and getting grabbed because I'm retarded. D: D: D:

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It's a little weird, positioned properly Zappa's airgrab beats ANYTHING in the air (yes, even slayers jHS and May's jHS and other air shenanigans). The trick, though, is that you must be underneath and slightly to the side of them for the throw to work; Therfore, his airgrab is almost entirely only a defensive move. However, that totally works for Zappa, because he already has some great anti-airs and airgrabbing people always nets big advantages for him.

i think the secret is to run under and behind them so that the move's hitbox (which is in front of them) will miss you and you can airgrab from behind.

That is how i tend to airgrab my opponents.

Its easiest with zappa because when you run in, you're in low stance so you won't get hit as early compared to other characters running in for a grab

I've air throw what most people consider "wtf" moves like baiken jhs, slayer jhs, johnny jhs, may's jhs/j2hs, OS jhs... can't grab pot's jhs coz theres hitbox in his whole body :psyduck:

option after an airgrab is 2k ghost(K) as otg. it haunts them. Its techable between 2k and ghost hit but pretty hard...

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option after an airgrab is 2k ghost(K) as otg. it haunts them. Its techable between 2k and ghost hit but pretty hard...

I would just drop the K ghost without the 2K. That'll nearly guarantee the OTG haunting (depending on the height of the airthrow).

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Better yet: K toss FRC backdash P toss pressure. You get haunting, P toss stuffs them while items fall in and you can do anything you want. FRC P toss for extra safety lol.

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I'm kinda guilty of FRCing the ghosts when it's entirely unnecessary. Does this make me a bad person?

yes, ghost is the only thing that drains my never ending tension quickly

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I like to do a lot of useless FRC's to fake them out and make them think I'm going to FRC and pressure each time, so when I DON'T do it they're sitting there for no reason before realize I'm going for a tick throw setup. It depends on how you do it; if possible, I'd suggest not spending that last 25% unless it's absolutely necessary...

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I've noticed that no one really rushes in when I do a non FRC p toss now, because I cancel it so much. I suppose this is both good and bad, since I'm prolly gonna eat a DoT soon because of it.

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I've noticed that no one really rushes in when I do a non FRC p toss now, because I cancel it so much. I suppose this is both good and bad, since I'm prolly gonna eat a DoT soon because of it.

Top strats: rush in 6P/5K seems to work so often on so many characters/players it's scary. To keep it on topic, I'll use a Baiken example:

I like to use 5K in this match most often because it's very short blockstun, goes through most of her quick pokes (which happen to be lows) and best of all can set up a tick throw. If I land a counter hit, it's a free summon combo into pressure setup.

Ghosts have a weird way of mixing people up. Despite having 6HS as an overhead, there mixup isn't that awesome; what really gets people is frame traps. I like to do a supposedly unsafe block string then suddenly super jump j.HS the ghost right on them and it almost always gets a free knockdown.

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