Tari Report post Posted November 7, 2013 Discuss this matchup here. Seems like an interesting one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gli Report post Posted November 7, 2013 Currently studying Kokonoe by playing her lol. Rachel might have escape to unblocks? EDIT: Yeah she can wind tech the basic setup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stoneroth Report post Posted November 8, 2013 Some combo notes (corner) 5B > 5CDC > 5B > j.C > j.236A > j.2D etc doesn't work on Kokonoe. j.C whiffs Can make this work by using 5B 5C(9D)C to make her wallstick higher though. (midscreen) 3C > BBL only does 3 hits of BBL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tari Report post Posted November 8, 2013 I'm pretty sure Rachel is outta luck when it comes to escaping from Kokonoe's ice into blackhole reset. Don't think we have any way out of that, do we? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gamester Report post Posted November 8, 2013 Teleporting threw me off yesterday. I almost got caught in whatever after throwing out a lobelia D: Also... If you want to burn 50 Heat on TD, you can catch her when she's throwing out that fireball thing that bounces around carelessly. Even a winded Lobelia at points I noticed. However I don't know if this was because the Kokonoe didn't block or anything or was stuck in the animation but I've found this out from the most recent match I had. At least I'm sure I noticed when she gets hit. The fireball disappears. My memory doesn't serve me well. (Correct me if any of my statements are wrong as I've only had 4 matches against her) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bakahyl Report post Posted November 8, 2013 Her regular fireballs disappear when she gets hit or is blocking, but the DD version still keeps going eventhough if you hit her then the graviton she placed will disappear and the DD fireball won't be bouncing around Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samthegreat Report post Posted November 16, 2013 According to N-O this matchup is in our favor in neutral, which was pretty much the only part I was concerned about. I can't really follow his walls of Japanese tech talk very well but I know Errol has a better idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Errol Report post Posted November 20, 2013 it's all on the return when rachel hits. I believe he also said winning against her once is like winning against litchi 5 times Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samthegreat Report post Posted November 20, 2013 I believe he also said winning against her once is like winning against litchi 5 times huh but that's a really bad thing lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tari Report post Posted November 20, 2013 huh but's a really bad thing lol I'm hoping he meant it in terms of how happy you feel when you win, haha. Which still isn't really that reassuring, but whatever! :D I think I'm just happy that we can't get killed by blackhole setups in this matchup, even though we still have to deal with the rest of the crazy oki stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Errol Report post Posted November 20, 2013 something of note is that george in neutral feels pretty weak in this matchup. if you block a j2c george is dead if he's anywhere close. That's how I realized just how much range it has both in front and behind her. much of her ground pressure auto kills george too, like 2c or 3c. again the range is wild so it doesn't have to be timed well. just in that case, at least they don't hit behind her, but they do hit behind you. not to say there still isn't the occasional frog hit or having to take evasive action because of frog, but it seems less than other characters. as for pressure, I wanted to get out so I tried to use cat chair. she has lots of very disjoint hitboxes so this sometimes fails gloriously. her 2c in particular. it sometimes worked against j2c just barely, since she kind of falls into the cat chair well after hitting the guardpoint. on occasion it worked against 6c, but I think more often it didn't. I haven't bought her so I can't really test stuff of course... trying to put out pumpkin and wind dash in was sketchy for me. if she's scared and making copious use of j2c while jumping or iad'ing backwards, it seems to me that it usually turns out poorly. The same movement pattern is almost impossible to punish by dashing and using 6a. possibly use of j.C is the answer, I just don't have that kind of movement down for my rachel yet. air hits with j.B j.C confirmed with 2d into a combo are good but I have some issues with combos often enough that I have trouble taking stuff to a winning pattern (Plus bad pressure). careful about the 3c. It's kind of like hakumens 4c but it comes out fast hits low and recovers fast. she can punish you using lobelias much easier than other characters i've played so far (not that many to be honest), though other characters can too, of course. I'm still adjusting to the change to 236a, this is part of it... she's fast and has a quick far reaching 2a. I had some success using the fork if I guessed that was going on, but on the other hand, fork vs kokonoe 3c wars is probably 80-20 in her favor. This is just to point out what I had trouble with. Some of which I don't have an answer for atm (unlike confirms combos pressure which the answer is get better). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Errol Report post Posted November 21, 2013 I read some more of NO's tweets. He describes the matchup as a game of luck, with the neutral being basically RPS choices. If you touch her, she loses. if she gets out an active graviton and a fireball, you lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted November 21, 2013 sounds about right. not easy to play fullscreen or really anywhere except in her face. kokonoe has similar tools and a really good neutral in general especially if she gets out that fireball. l suppose it goes without saying that we need to find out a way over this immediately. notice that, because of the way fireballs are summoned, depending on the gravitation set there is always a blind spot. like if she tries her 6d fireball bs i'd 3c 5d, low profiling the fireball as much as possible while getting under it and hopefully pushing a summon to safety, where l get another small chance to hit her before she sets graviton it a bad position. summoning in general needs to be well thought out. 236d is unbelievably annoying with graviton on rachel, though on block she wont need to worry about grav for 2 whole seconds. just banish ray and fireball... ugh. at least black hole isnt free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoular Report post Posted November 22, 2013 (midscreen) 3C > BBL only does 3 hits of BBL Fix that with 3C > BLL > 4/7D funny how Platinum/Hazama/Makoto are fine. I haven't landed the corner combo at all, timing the 9D isn't easy. http://youtu.be/vUGACwVLw-Y?t=4m36s well here's an alternative Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samthegreat Report post Posted November 22, 2013 How do you guys escape Black Hole? Because wind tech doesn't work against Matoi's setup (only Lotus wind tech). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Errol Report post Posted November 22, 2013 Where is your god now Sam? N-O thinks it'll be impossible in a month.. lol. I wouldn't spend much effort on this matchup... :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted November 22, 2013 someone said to get up and smack the kokonoe player in the teeth with your stick, and im starting to think that is a viable tactic. #patchkokonoe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samthegreat Report post Posted November 22, 2013 I'm not even mad this character is just dumb. I'm sure he could beat his tao in a ft10 lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tari Report post Posted November 22, 2013 How do you guys escape Black Hole? Because wind tech doesn't work against Matoi's setup (only Lotus wind tech). What setup is he using? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheArm05 Report post Posted November 22, 2013 Well after watching the N-O vs Tsuji set I am just sad. Rachel god and all around one of the best players in the world N-O just got SHIT ON. I figured that Rachel would have the tools to deal with Koko at neutral and she would be able to win by getting in and abusing Kokos lack of defensive options (which happened on occasion). Turns out Koko just smashes Rachel mid/fullscreen and close range it is pretty much even if not in Kokos favor. Super Ball is some pretty serious bullshit and the amount of times Tsuji got away with wakeup 2A or wakeup teleport>2A was frustrating even me watching. The truly scary part is that it will only get worse from here. N-O couldn't figure much out in 13 games to answer Koko and he is at the pinnacle of the character. Koko is week 2... I am not a fan of early bans/patches but I think I have finally been convinced that this character is just absurdly overpowered. I have to agree #patchkokonoe #ArcsysPLS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mAc Chaos Report post Posted November 22, 2013 What do you guys think the matchup is? 4-6? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Errol Report post Posted November 22, 2013 2.5-7.5 4-6 being the worst a matchup can be is something people need to get over. N-O stomps top players in matchups that are bad for Rachel. He usually sits at the top of the arcade ranking.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted November 22, 2013 probably that, though it could be a bit higher. koko just shits on anything we do besides having up close pressure or a rod on her. although we have the frog 2a 6b oki setup vs teleport in the corner, its not always accessible or reliable. george is good because he can tank a hit or two in neutral, koko is like "LOL". a lot of her moves kill him and still function as good moves vs hime. her fireball, 3c, graviton, teleport, 2c, j2c and supers are all POS moves. banishing ray touches the heavens of POS but not quite there. its just really good but not stupid imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted November 22, 2013 2.5-7.5 4-6 being the worst a matchup can be is something people need to get over. N-O stomps top players in matchups that are bad for Rachel. He usually sits at the top of the arcade ranking.. whoa really? for real? l didnt want to say 7-3. l didnt want to believe it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NecroTheReaper Report post Posted November 22, 2013 I've never really played as Rachel, but looking at the movesets of the characters, seems like even if Kokonoe wasn't a completely bs retarded character right now, fundamental issues would give Rachel a hard time, mostly cuz Fireball gives no fucks about george or rods, or any other projectile in the game. Mu 236A on roids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
