[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[OutlawVinegar]

I'm gonna do that thing where a person replies to week-old posts. Apologies in advance.

 

...I'm also curious as to why all these Elizabeth players sub Akihiko.

 

I'm pretty certain it's because you guys like doing DAMAGE seemingly out of nowhere as long as you have meter while still having meh mobility and an iffy reversal. Akihiko imo is the next best thing if those traits are what you're looking for.

 

 

 

Paraphrasing, final panel Margaret says, "You're being childish, Elizabeth..."

 

 

Pandora Launcher has projectile invul on start up in P4U2, which is why that happened. Dunno why it was added to the game either.

 

Pandora was probably given projectile invul because Arcsys doesn't balance games well and gives needless buffs to top tiers it was a slightly lackluster tool; many characters really didn't have to respect that move at all in P4A, either punishing her hard for even trying, or having reliable ways of completely negating it. Almost like P4A Liz Maharagidyne! 

[OmnixTSC]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the particular way that you have it/the way that you think about it. It's just that Chie, Yosuke and Teddie's DP have the first part listed as catch and the second part as attack already, making the way you have it now "the odd man out" sort of, lol. It's interesting that the data on the attack portion is missing though. I wonder why ASW didn't put it in.

 

I meant that the name was just 'Debilitate'. It wasn't 'Debilitate (Catch)' in the mook, where as the other one actually was listed as 'Debilitate (Counter)' leading me to name the other as catch. I changed them to match the P4A data so that the labeling could be consistent. Sorry if I confused anyone

 

I think the DP timing point is a valid argument. It seems that the catch is fast, though I cannot eyeball it exactly (despite the fact that you can replay YT videos at 1/4th speed). I would almost wager that from when Nonono hit jB, he was caught within 1f, but I cannot say for certain. This is why I brought up OSing, though I do not think that there are any OSes that deal with guardpoint. 

 

I want to see what kind of situations can arise from invuling Debilitate/Randomizer. I already want to test things like 5B(1) > B/SB Thunder Fists with Akihiko (not as an OS, just to see what happens). The only thing is that there probably aren't OS's for dealing with guardpoint. In most games, you just end up safe-jumping said guardpoint since they don't actually catch you. I also wonder if Debilitate doesn't work on a neutral opponent similar to Liz's IK (though I didn't see anything listed for that unless I missed something in the moonrunes)

[Dazardz]

I'm gonna do that thing where a person replies to week-old posts. Apologies in advance.

 

I'm pretty certain it's because you guys like doing DAMAGE seemingly out of nowhere as long as you have meter while still having meh mobility and an iffy reversal. Akihiko imo is the next best thing if those traits are what you're looking for.

 

 

I just tried Akihiko because he didn't wear a shirt.    From there I just liked his style of getting in, staying in.

As for the Randomizer discussion.

 

Has anybody seen anybody combo after it in the corner?

[Luminos564]

 

As for the Randomizer discussion.

 

Has anybody seen anybody combo after it in the corner?

 

Dunno. I've heard reports stating that it was possible, albeit with very strict timing. However, no Lizzie player I've seen has utilized it yet so I can't confirm it.

 

Going back a bit to Lizzie's gameplan, I spent my time watching combo vids between P4A and P4U2. You know, whoever said that Lizzie does low damage was absolutely right (IIRC it was Okusan). At least, in comparison to what she could do in P4A. As an example, 25SP in P4A was at least guaranteed to net 3K minimum depending on what you were doing at the time. 25SP for P4U2 Lizzie (at least when Unawakened) barely breaks 2K and you need at least twice that amount to match that damage from P4A. I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be such a bad thing IF Lizzie's Invigorate generated SP at a faster rate. If she was something like say Terumi from BBCP, having huge meter gain and having big damage with it and poor damage without, then Lizzie would be much more viable than she currently is.

 

I've made this point before, but Lizzie's SP gain is affected much more severely whenever you use an SP skill or an SB one. Most other characters can just continue their assault after they use theirs and start gaining SP back in no time. Usually in the same combo. But since Lizzie is reliant on Invigorate and cannot get SP on her own (unless we throw in Mind Charge which still applies the SP cooldown anyway) she is forced to wait it out. No offense ASW, but if you want to give us an SP-cannon with Lizzie you gotta make sure we're able to load said cannon with ammo. As it stands, she's far too reliant on a resource she is not able to get very easily. At least not in comparison to everyone else.

[Elochai]

Yeah, as it stands, the damage to meter ratio is kinda silly. Comparatively, though, Liz's damage:meter is only slightly lack luster midscreen. Unless you have 1HSW, pretty much all of our BnBs will cost 50 meter. 25sp for garu/bufu. Even with that being said, this would be okay if the combos we got were largely advantageous to us. That's not really the case though. We're not really running setups after combos in this version. I mentioned on Twitter that I feel like 5D fullscreen confirms got hella nerfed since we lost the jB route/meaningful knockdown or setup opportunity. You can't even bufu > d agi oki in awakening.

On the topic of Randomizer, I wanna try PSho 5A > counter just to see if Liz will still go into the "catch" if she's been hit. After all, this is why I assume DP works anyway .

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Luminos564]

Yeah, as it stands, the damage to meter ratio is kinda silly. Comparatively, though, Liz's damage:meter is only slightly lack luster midscreen. Unless you have 1HSW, pretty much all of our BnBs will cost 50 meter. 25sp for garu/bufu.

 

Yeah exactly. ASW is asking Lizzie players to burn 50SP to match the damage of what virtually everyone else (sans Yosuke) can do meterless and outright exceed with 25SP. Now, like I said I wouldn't have a problem with this if SP was something that is made readily available to Lizzie. If it were reasonably faster and/or didn't have the cooldown upon using it then I could say that us having to sacrifice 50SP to dish out 3~4K is understandable. But that isn't the case. I'm all for an SP-cannon gameplay, but if that was ASW's intention, then they did not do a good job for it.

[OmnixTSC]

Yeah exactly. ASW is asking Lizzie players to burn 50SP to match the damage of what virtually everyone else (sans Yosuke) can do meterless and outright exceed with 25SP. Now, like I said I wouldn't have a problem with this if SP was something that is made readily available to Lizzie. If it were reasonably faster and/or didn't have the cooldown upon using it then I could say that us having to sacrifice 50SP to dish out 3~4K is understandable. But that isn't the case. I'm all for an SP-cannon gameplay, but if that was ASW's intention, then they did not do a good job for it.

 

She doesn't need to have a good meter:damage ratio. Liz needs to just get something out of using her meter. At the end of the day, she could have 100 SP and it amounts to nothing. Her neutral doesn't improve even slightly, her mixup is never really expanded (2B > OMC be damned), and she doesn't get any improvements as far as damage is concerned.

 

Liz has all these status ailment inflicting moves that amount to nothing most of the time, as she can't capitalize off of anything that isn't Fear. Paralysis would be all well and good if we actually benefited from it. We spend meter on it in this version to get comparative neutral/mixup to what we have without it, the difference being that we're now finding ourselves with less meter to play around with. Negative Penalty would be good if we could realistically apply it to our game plan. Poison forces you to make use of either a weak zoning game or a lacking rushdown game, being nullified if you're so much as scratched. Freeze setups aren't even worthwhile now that we can't force it on opponents whimsically. Mind Charge being gimped doesn't leave us many viable opportunities to apply Confusion, so that status ailment is ruled out as well.

 

I just don't see why we have all these tools and can make use of practically none of them. Whoever thought this current version of Liz was a good idea really needs to reevaluate their game designing or, in this case, character designing ability. I can tell you that even without looking at the frame data, most people would feel her current design is completely nonsensical.

 

A Jack-Of-All-Trades utilizes everything at their disposal at an average or decent level at the bare minimum, not at a comparatively lower level to who or what that person is forced to address.

[Luminos564]

Omni, please don't misunderstand: neither me nor Elochai believe that getting more SP will fix Lizzie outright. We are fully aware of just how many problems she has and most of them that you listed cannot be mitigated by "let's give her more SP to burn". I only proposed it as a bare minimum solution based on observation and personal educated guess to ASW's intent. Without going into reworking her character outright from the ground up. And something tells me, that ASW is not going to do that for her any time soon and we'd be here discussing all day what we could improve to make her more viable/balanced.

[OmnixTSC]

Omni, please don't misunderstand: neither me nor Elochai believe that getting more SP will fix Lizzie outright. We are fully aware of just how many problems she has and most of them that you listed cannot be mitigated by "let's give her more SP to burn". I only proposed it as a bare minimum solution based on observation and personal educated guess to ASW's intent. Without going into reworking her character outright from the ground up. And something tells me, that ASW is not going to do that for her any time soon and we'd be here discussing all day what we could improve to make her more viable/balanced.

 

I wasn't really pointing fingers or anything, as only the first paragraph (if you can call it that) of my post was directed at you two. I just neglected to point that out b/c I was about ready to go to sleep

 

The rest was just a generalization of some Liz's problem atm.

[Elochai]

But I mentioned that whole point about advantage and everything .

 

I just don't see why we have all these tools and can make use of practically none of them. Whoever thought this current version of Liz was a good idea really needs to reevaluate their game designing or, in this case, character designing ability. I can tell you that even without looking at the frame data, most people would feel her current design is completely nonsensical.

 

A Jack-Of-All-Trades utilizes everything at their disposal at an average or decent level at the bare minimum, not at a comparatively lower level to who or what that person is forced to address.

 

This is called "being an incomplete character" btw.

[Luminos564]

The rest was just a generalization of some Liz's problem atm.

 

This is called "being an incomplete character" btw.

 

You know I gotta ask, what are the chances of ASW doing one last re-balance before or shortly after the P4U2 console release? I mean, ASW is not stupid (least I hope not). I'm sure they themselves can see just how much Lizzie has to struggle through just to bust out a win. If it is obvious to us (who can tell she isn't all that good based just on watching some YT footage) then it should be obvious to a trained game developer. Then again, ASW produced Extend Makoto and proceeded to nerf her even further for ver.1.1  of BBCP so what do I know. Maybe we ought to mail our thoughts and suggestions to them in regards on how we could improve her?

 

...

 

Nah, probably a waste of effort.

[OmnixTSC]

This is called "being an incomplete character" btw.

 

I get where you were coming from, but that isn't always the case. You can be an incomplete character and not be geared towards the "I can do everything kinda okaish" format. Look at Terumi in BBCP. He is most definitely incomplete pre-patch and doesn't try to do everything under the sun like Liz does. More-so than Liz being incomplete, I think they just didn't make her options viable while giving her access to pretty much everything (barring good movement options). I think that's what they wanted to do, I'm just confused as to why they would want to do that (like the rest of you are).

[OmnixTSC]

Then again, ASW produced Extend Makoto and proceeded to nerf her even further for ver.1.1  of BBCP so what do I know. 

 

 

Makoto isn't getting nerfed like most of DL will have you believe. Most of her changes balanced out. I really wish they would stop crying lol.

 

 

 

Maybe we ought to mail our thoughts and suggestions to them in regards on how we could improve her?

 

We can do this, but you'll have to wait until we actually get the game for this to mean something. For all we know, we could find stuff that Japan doesn't when the game hits consoles that suddenly makes Liz viable (though not likely). There's also the chance that Arc Sys will come to their senses and address some of her issues without having much player feedback.

[Elochai]

I get where you were coming from, but that isn't always the case. You can be an incomplete character and not be geared towards the "I can do everything kinda okaish" format. Look at Terumi in BBCP. He is most definitely incomplete pre-patch and doesn't try to do everything under the sun like Liz does. More-so than Liz being incomplete, I think they just didn't make her options viable while giving her access to pretty much everything (barring good movement options). I think that's what they wanted to do, I'm just confused as to why they would want to do that (like the rest of you are).

Apologies. I should have explained what I meant. It's just that Elizabeth has a bunch of different things, and even with all of those elements combined, she doesn't really amount to much. It's like a bunch of unfinished ideas if that makes any sense. I do agree with you, though.

I'm still kinda hopeful that one of us will find Liz tech in the console port. Japanese players (at least from what's recorded) haven't really tried out a lot of things.

[OmnixTSC]

Apologies. I should have explained what I meant. It's just that Elizabeth has a bunch of different things, and even with all of those elements combined, she doesn't really amount to much. It's like a bunch of unfinished ideas if that makes any sense. I do agree with you, though.

I'm still kinda hopeful that one of us will find Liz tech in the console port. Japanese players (at least from what's recorded) haven't really tried out a lot of things.

 

Nah, it's no big deal. We're all grasping for straws here

 

Waiting for console is what I keep getting told to do by Bace. "Just wait for console and don't worry about it until then."

 

I think I have too much fun speculating and theory fighting, though. Maybe that's what this all is, haha.

[LightlordIV]

You know I gotta ask, what are the chances of ASW doing one last re-balance before or shortly after the P4U2 console release? I mean, ASW is not stupid (least I hope not). I'm sure they themselves can see just how much Lizzie has to struggle through just to bust out a win. If it is obvious to us (who can tell she isn't all that good based just on watching some YT footage) then it should be obvious to a trained game developer. Then again, ASW produced Extend Makoto and proceeded to nerf her even further for ver.1.1  of BBCP so what do I know. Maybe we ought to mail our thoughts and suggestions to them in regards on how we could improve her?

 

...

 

Nah, probably a waste of effort.

Well, I think ASW will re-balance this game either by changing things when the game hits the consoles or after this. The game still has some very ugly glitches, namely Yukari's (I saw two of her bugs) and Yosuke's OMC bug (I saw both earlier on YouTube, but Yosuke's bug video got deleted).  IMO, this is a good reason for a patch. They could pick this opportunity and buff Liz as well. 

[Pssych]

Well, I think ASW will re-balance this game either by changing things when the game hits the consoles or after this. The game still has some very ugly glitches, namely Yukari's (I saw two of her bugs) and Yosuke's OMC bug (I saw both earlier on YouTube, but Yosuke's bug video got deleted).  IMO, this is a good reason for a patch. They could pick this opportunity and buff Liz as well.

Those were already fixed. (I know for a fact the Yosuke one was fixed)

Edited March 23, 2014 by Pssych

[LightlordIV]

Are you sure? Yukari's BFR glitch seems pretty recent. 

[Luminos564]

Makoto isn't getting nerfed like most of DL will have you believe. Most of her changes balanced out. I really wish they would stop crying lol.

 

But it is true that CS1 Rachel and Extend Makoto existed though, correct? Honestly, ASW's approach to balancing leaves me worried a lot. It seems that whatever character I take a liking to in 1 version of the game, they go out of the way to make them worse in the next. Every time I hear there's a patch incoming to an ASW title, I have to mentally brace myself for the impact.

 

We can do this, but you'll have to wait until we actually get the game for this to mean something. For all we know, we could find stuff that Japan doesn't when the game hits consoles that suddenly makes Liz viable (though not likely). There's also the chance that Arc Sys will come to their senses and address some of her issues without having much player feedback.

 

I fear that may be too late for the timing. I heard that this would be the last P4 Arena, which likely means that ASW can just make the definitive console version and abandon ship to go and work on whatever else. Then again, Team Blue is in charge of maintaining Arena plus Blazblue CP and since there has not been any work done to the next BB project (if Mori is to be believed) then maybe a rebalancing patch isn't out of the question.

 

But maybe you're right. Maybe I should just wait until Fall when P4U2 us scheduled to hit consoles. Worrying about a game and character I cannot play yet does seem a little silly.

 

Well, I think ASW will re-balance this game either by changing things when the game hits the consoles or after this. The game still has some very ugly glitches, namely Yukari's (I saw two of her bugs) and Yosuke's OMC bug (I saw both earlier on YouTube, but Yosuke's bug video got deleted).  IMO, this is a good reason for a patch. They could pick this opportunity and buff Liz as well. 

 

Like Pssych mentioned brah, those glitches have been fixed (last I heard anyway). That was the arcade version to boot so you can bet that they will always make sure that version is (almost) always 100% free of glitches and bugs. It's the consoles that they have trouble addressing in a timely fashion (some of which isn't in their control admittedly).

 

Anyway, speaking of strictly gameplay I agree with most here: Lizzie's Jack-of-all status is not doing her any favors. It's like if someone took all aspects of a 2D fighter character, mashed them together in an aged blender and threw out the product for sale without even tasting it. Lizzie can do a lot of things. But like both Omni and Elochai have stated, she really cannot exceed in anything or make use of her tools. Can inflict every status effect under the rainbow (barring Enrage which WOULD help against those pesky turtlers). But she cannot capitalize on them since her pressure is poor at best. Can manually enter Awakening? Great. Except her health is horrible and she has no defensive options to survive long enough to make good use of it. Generates SP automatically? Nice. Too bad she cannot get SP on her own like say Haku-men can and suffers the most of any character due to the SP cooldown. Is the only character capable of inflicting Negative Penalty? Awesome. Too bad the move that does that is nigh unusable in practice.

 

*Sigh* I wish I could get my hands on the character already. I think I wouldn't be this anxious if I knew what was waiting in store for me.

[LightlordIV]

Hmm, so the glitches aren't a excuse for rebalancing the game now (and buff Liz in the process), since they seem to be fixed as of now. I hope there's a whole lot of things that the players were unable to discover -after all, she isn't played by many people- OR that a rebalancing is coming. Geez, the way she is now really worries me, even knowing that she may have some crazy undiscovered stuff. I would appreciate if she remained the way she was at the first loketest but without that hideous glitch, of course.

[Strife]

Hmm, so the glitches aren't a excuse for rebalancing the game now (and buff Liz in the process), since they seem to be fixed as of now. I hope there's a whole lot of things that the players were unable to discover -after all, she isn't played by many people- OR that a rebalancing is coming. Geez, the way she is now really worries me, even knowing that she may have some crazy undiscovered stuff. I would appreciate if she remained the way she was at the first loketest but without that hideous glitch, of course.

 

Hum, P4U's balance patch before consoles wasn't meant for glitches right? Maybe we can still get something like that in this version too.

 

Liz buffs incoming!

I'd like some shadow buffs as well. At least a defensive Burst to get out of stuff.

[GBAer64]

Hum, P4U's balance patch before consoles wasn't meant for glitches right? Maybe we can still get something like that in this version too.

 

Liz buffs incoming!

I'd like some shadow buffs as well. At least a defensive Burst to get out of stuff.

 

I thought the principle reason Shadow Mode was added was to basically go all out yet sacrifice their burst/defensive options in the process... Right?

 

And yes a buff is truly needed, all the facts about how Lizzie is pretty much nerfed/invalid now so I don't think I need to restate it.

 

Though if anything I at least was hoping they would nerf a few aspects on characters like the Godly Queen of Executions and the Unbeatable Carnivore Who's Discarded Womanhood...

 

Actually... how much of a chance do you guys think Liz has against any of the other characters? (I can't exactly see the vids since this CPU is blocked from Nico and Youtube)

Does it look like she actually can live longer then a combo from those two beasts?

 

[OmnixTSC]

Actually... how much of a chance do you guys think Liz has against any of the other characters?

 

Based on what we know, the Chie MU got slightly worse and the Mitsuru MU is just as bad, though maybe a bit more manageable. We don't really know much as there isn't enough Liz footage.

[Elochai]

I like that Kouzezka used 236 > AOA for a mix up. That was cute.

I think the MUs should generally stay the same, or Elizabeth would slightly lose favor in them. If Liz is "worse" than she was in P4U, and most of the other characters are "better" or just as strong, then this line of thinking would make sense.

[OmnixTSC]

Damosu is in the Taito 2v2 National tournament. I suggest you guys tune in just in-case there's something to see.

 

Taito 2v2