[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Luminos564]

Time to start praying to whatever god you believe in

 

And it seems like God answered back.

Courtesy of Sourenga:

 

ELIZABETH

- 2C

Increased travel distance during the move

- 2D

The time until you can summon the Persona has been decreased

- Maziodyne

While in Awakening, recovery from aerial A-version has been decreased

While in Awakening, untechable time from counter hit of A-version has been increased

- Mabufudyne

A-version has now a faster start-up

- Magarudyne

Recovery after D-version's landing has been decreased

Damage reduction has been loosened

During the Awakening, SB-version's damage reduction has been loosened and the untechable time has been increased

- Maragidyne

Persona now returns back to Elizabeth after the C and D version of the move

- Randomizer

Overall recovery has been decreased

After the opponent is caught up in the move, Elizabeth is fully invincible until the move ends

 

-2C: Well, if you can't increase the untech time, then you might as well allow Thanny to move further when activating the move instead for the follow-ups. It might help the Bufu-series more easily connect after it at least.

-AWK.Mazio[A]: What was before a good poking tool is now even better. Lower recovery and longer untech time? Sign me up. Grated it IS for Awakening only, but hey, it helps at least.

-Mabufu[A]: Faster start-up? Neat. If it is fast enough, it might help to function as an alternative anti-air option as opposed to just using 2B all the time.

-Magaru-series: Looks like they realized that most of the damage we can get IS from Garu-loops. So instead of actively nerfing it to force us into looking for alternative damage routes, they made the Garu-loops stronger. And SB Awk.Magaru can potentially be used for even better results since also received a buff to its damage reduction penalty and got increased untech time.

-Maragidyne[C/D]: This is actually a VERY good thing. Thanny is not exactly safe when casting the C and D versions. Having him return to Lizzie's position both keeps him safe and allows us to do some interesting set-ups like knocking the opponent away with Maziodyne then Maragidyne [C] to prevent characters like Yu from simply Zio-car into a punish.

-Randomizer: What was before a trash move is finally sounding like it could be of some use now. Though I question why we'd need to be invincible after already catching the opponent but maybe it was worded weird or something? Maybe it just means after "catching" a move we can Randomizer, we get the invincibility...

 

All in all, we're still going to burn through SP like crazy but at least we got mostly buffs. Whether or not they ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things is left up in the air for now. But for once, I am uncharacteristically optimistic, if only because I am NOT a good Lizzie player by any means so there may be unforeseen benefits that I (most likely) missed. I may still need to find another character to play but my girl Lizzie is finally given a better chance. Have a go guys.

[TheArm05]

Decent buffs for sure but I have the feeling that this really doesn't address any of Liz's original problems.  It sounds like we are getting damage but we had that in P4A already.

 

They didn't change any of the recovery or speed on any of her normals.  She is still going to be crazy unsafe and risky.  They still did not give her a real counter assault or DP.  They are giving us band-aids and painkillers when we have gaping wounds.

 

Here is to hoping she is actually a force to be feared in awakening.  That is still her best chance at being a decent character.

 

Also Chie 5A is back to +1 so RIP getting out of Chie pressure again.  I seriously can't believe they reverted that change.

[Elochai]

-Randomizer: What was before a trash move is finally sounding like it could be of some use now. Though I question why we'd need to be invincible after already catching the opponent but maybe it was worded weird or something? Maybe it just means after "catching" a move we can Randomizer, we get the invincibility...

 

If I'm correct in my line of thinking, then this change prevents Elizabeth from being DP'd out of Randomizer after she has "caught" the opponent. 

It seems ASW wanted to address Elizabeth's combo routes more than anything. With the exception of 2D/214C/D/Randomizer, all of these changes seem to really only affect how she does damage. The change to j236A is kinda hilarious though; I always assumed that if you were going to shoot Zios in the air, you were doing it close to the ground anyway (as to lessen the recovery since you're landing faster). Oh well. At least we (assumingly) have garu loops back/combos off of 236A wallsplat.

All in all though, I have to agree with TheArm here. While changing damage is nice, I would rather get an improved neutral game. Where's the change to reduce the recovery of 5B on whiff ?

[susano]

And it seems like God answered back.

Courtesy of Sourenga:

 

 

-2C: Well, if can't increase the untech time, then you might as well allow Thanny to move further when activating the move instead for the follow-ups. It might help the Bufu-series more easily connect after it at least.

-AWK.Mazio[A]: What was before a good poking tool is now even better. Lower recovery and longer untech time? Sign me up. Grated it IS for Awakening only, but hey, it helps at least.

-Mabufu[A]: Faster start-up? Neat. If it is fast enough, it might help to function as an alternative anti-air option as opposed to just using 2B all the time.

-Magaru-series: Looks like they realized that most of the damage we can get IS from Garu-loops. So instead of actively nerfing it to force us into looking for alternative damage routes, they made the Garu-loops stronger. And SB Awk.Magaru can potentially be used for even better results since also received a buff to its damage reduction penalty and got increased untech time.

-Maragidyne[C/D]: This is actually a VERY good thing. Thanny is not exactly safe when casting the C and D versions. Having him return to Lizzie's position both keeps him safe and allows us to do some interesting set-ups like knocking the opponent away with Maziodyne then Maragidyne [C] to prevent characters like Yu from simply Zio-car into a punish.

-Randomizer: What was before a trash move is finally sounding like it could be of some use now. Though I question why we'd need to be invincible after already catching the opponent but maybe it was worded weird or something? Maybe it just means after "catching" a move we can Randomizer, we get the invincibility...

 

All in all, we're still going to burn through SP like crazy but at least we got mostly buffs. Whether or not they ultimately matter in the grand scheme of things is left up in the air for now. But for once, I am uncharacteristically optimistic, if only because I am NOT a good Lizzie player by any means so there may be unforeseen benefits that I (most likely) missed. I may still need to find another character to play but my girl Lizzie is finally given a better chance. Have a go guys.

 

My hope has been restored. Still, neutral is still gonna be a pain.

[Strife]

Hey guys.

 

What about Quick Escape? I always thought this mechanic would be a life saver for Liz and look, it was buffed!

 

If you don't remember what it is, it's basically a Guard Cancel with Roll instead of an attack.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Strife

[PK Gaming]

So what's the preliminary status report on Liz. Has she been salvaged? 

[Luminos564]

 

Decent buffs for sure but I have the feeling that this really doesn't address any of Liz's original problems.  It sounds like we are getting damage but we had that in P4A already.

 

They didn't change any of the recovery or speed on any of her normals.  She is still going to be crazy unsafe and risky.  They still did not give her a real counter assault or DP.  They are giving us band-aids and painkillers when we have gaping wounds.

 

I said was "uncharacteristically optimistic" not "blind" XD. Really, until we see it in practice, I am not going to go about claiming she's been rescued. Not yet anyway. We still lack a means of getting that damage in but for now, I wanna follow clsely how things unfold.

 

Also Chie 5A is back to +1 so RIP getting out of Chie pressure again.  I seriously can't believe they reverted that change.

 

It's ASW man. They award the most ridiculous of buffs to whichever character by playing darts. At least Yu and Ysuke are taking hits where necessary.

 

All in all though, I have to agree with TheArm here. While changing damage is nice, I would rather get an improved neutral game. Where's the change to reduce the recovery of 5B on whiff ?

 

Yeah that'd have been nice. But let's be honest, the amount of wrong that P4U2 vanilla Lizzie suffered was massive. The fact that we're getting ANYTHING addressed is an improvement in my book. I'll take baby-steps forward as opposed to a backdash into a chasm if you get what I am saying.

 

Hey guys.

 

What about Quick Escape? I always thought this mechanic would be a life saver for Liz and look, it was buffed!

 

If you don't remember what it is, it's basically a Guard Cancel with Roll instead of an attack.

 

Can't you simply be thrown out of those? Then again, I've never seen any JPN player even use it before on any other character, let alone the low amount of recorded Lizzie players, so what do I know.

 

So what's the preliminary status report on Liz. Has she been salvaged? 

 

Too early to tell brah. I'm hoping the answer is a tentative "Yes" but like both TheArm05 and Elochai said, we're not out of the FML-tier woods yet.

[Strife]

 

Can't you simply be thrown out of those? Then again, I've never seen any JPN player even use it before on any other character, let alone the low amount of recorded Lizzie players, so what do I know.

 

Of course they didn't use it, it wasn't worth it. It was slow, it didn't travel enough distance and it was fatal counter recovery. And all of that was addressed in the patch, kinda. 

 

Which makes me wonder if she can occasionaly use her meter to get out of pressure this time around. She lacks decent defensive options, it would be something to look forward to.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Strife

[Luminos564]

Of course they didn't use it, it wasn't worth it. It was slow, it didn't travel enough distance and it was fatal counter recovery. And all of that was addressed in the patch, kinda. 

 

Which makes me wonder if she can occasionaly use her meter to get out of pressure this time around. She doesn't have any other reliable defensive option after all, it would be something to look forward to.

 

Eh, it's still in a Counter state and nothing about it screams "useful" yet to me. It has lower frames but longer distance which sounds a bit odd to me as well. Maybe it could be of some use, but I sincerely doubt this will make the players use it on a regular basis. Added, Lizzie's meter gain is still not the best thing there is. She still suffers from having to wait out the duration of SP cooldown when using it and her damage without it is still not good. So I can't imagine blowing 50SP only to deal mediocre damage would be THAT helpful in her case.

 

EDIT: I take back my "damage w/o meter is bad" comment. The patch notes indicate potentially better meterless damage so maybe it COULD be better than I am giving it credit for.

[OmnixTSC]

My hope has been restored. Still, neutral is still gonna be a pain.

 

Our neutral was better in this game, though? Outside of dealing with Based Diamond Wyvern Messiah sword normals.

 

 

All in all though, I have to agree with TheArm here. While changing damage is nice, I would rather get an improved neutral game. Where's the change to reduce the recovery of 5B on whiff  ?

 

5B literally lead to death in most cases in P4U. Why would this be a good idea, haha. Also, our neutral game actually did improve a bit from P4U to P4U2...we just lost the oki and mixups we got off of said neutral in the last game

 

Anyways, I'm happy. Now we get to see more Liz players fraud out people instead of outplaying them and we get to watch the good/decent Liz players actually bop people by outplaying them! I think...

[Luminos564]

Anyways, I'm happy. Now we get to see more Liz players fraud out people instead of outplaying them and we get to watch the good/decent Liz players actually bop people by outplaying them! I think...

 

Que? What do you mean by that? Are you saying that Lizzie's new stuff will somehow allow people (bad players) to win by doing random stuff and doing lucky hits? If so, I'd like more elaboration on that. The current stuff doesn't spell to me an era where Lizzie is akin to pre-patch Kokonuts.

[OmnixTSC]

A lot of, and I mean a LOT of Liz players in P4U got by on her damage and nothing else. She's getting some of that back now.

[Luminos564]

A lot of, and I mean a LOT of Liz players in P4U got by on her damage and nothing else. She's getting some of that back now.

 

To their credit: what else did she even have going for her? Besides, she was a glass-cannon in P4A. Getting by on her damage is kinda the point.

 

But I'm glad that I am not the only one that thinks her damage ought to rise from this. Seriously, burning 50SP for a combo route that won't even break 3K when other characters can do that meterless? Yeah, bugger that nonsense.

[Elochai]

5B literally lead to death in most cases in P4U. Why would this be a good idea, haha. Also, our neutral game actually did improve a bit from P4U to P4U2...we just lost the oki and mixups we got off of said neutral in the last game

 

You're not wrong. Though we did get improved neutral from vanilla to this version, I still want more. Like having awakening version maragidyne outside of awakening  (I still believe that a lot of Elizabeth's normals aren't too good though).

At least we're getting DAMAGE back in this version. I can't wait to cheese people out with falling jB into 7k again. Woooooo ~

[OmnixTSC]

To their credit: what else did she even have going for her? Besides, she was a glass-cannon in P4A. Getting by on her damage is kinda the point.

 

Her corner oki was literaly busted. It didn't matter how much damage you did to them in order to get them in the corner. It could be an auto-combo and it made no difference. Now you're in the corner and your opponent is dealing with fear and/or Agi oki. And possibly paralysis, freeze, or poison. Also, maybe confusion. Also...Liz might have all the meter in the world at this point. Also, Liz still has a burst! Yaaaaaaay *cough*

 

I'm saying all this b/c there are a lot of Liz players that complain about things that aren't actually issues or don't capitalize on things they should. People don't know combos, they don't do proper pressure, and they refuse to punish things properly. This was true for Liz players regardless of iteration. Her damage was busted in P4U, though. That alleviated some of the need to do proper stuff b/c you could do 4 lackluster combos and nearly die, then win the round b/c someone tried to chicken block 2C and died in the corner while you had a crap ton of meter.

 

I'm not holding that against anyone b/c that version of Liz let you do that and was geared towards that, but it's still kind of depressing to see that as the only thing people can rely on at times

[bace]

While they said the proration was weakened that does not mean the 1000 SMP is gone on Garu. We'll get a little more damage tho, think of it as she is more "complete". Also the 2C change could a tiny bit help it not get upbacked.

[GBAer64]

I find it hard to believe that Chie is the only character you have trouble blocking when characters like Narukami and Aigis are in the game 

 

I wonder what the new patch is going to be like, though. I think Liz's Garus should stay nerfed, but we need to be able to get damage somewhere. They really should just update the way Liz's meter works in this game.

 

Well I didn't meet many Aigis's that had those mixups often and even when I did the match would be like 50-50 on who would win since we were in a lobby together. Narukami's were easy imo even when they did that crossup thing. I only lose in blocking with a functional yet laggy match for obvious reasons.

 

Though with Chie... doesn't matter... The only thing I can block is her auto attack. Every time I'm downed it's over with that high-low trick she does combined with Tomoe's spinny thing (2D) I ALWAYS forgot to keep blocking when she airdashes and A/B's you since I only blocked once. That being since I got so used to fighting Mitsuru's who we all know sorta jabs with one hard poke to make a follow up rape combo. And...

Wait...

NEW PATCH!? WHEN WAS THIS!?@!?!

 

At least he's good at blocking. All I ever seemed to win with is 2C (Fear)>Mind Charge>Raw Ghastly Wail. It saved my ass a lot. Funnily enough, I faced all of 1 Aigis ever in my time playing online. The rest were mostly Yu, Yosuke, Yukiko, Akihiko, Kanji and Shadow Labrys.

True that has been the turnabout in quite a few matches I had back in the day when I was like rank D-C. I mean... I'm C+ now because Chie's with bad internet's like to be with me... (You can see my clear hatred of the Carnivore). But really one Aigis? I know she was rare but I at least met 18 in all and what about Nao-chan?

A lot of, and I mean a LOT of Liz players in P4U got by on her damage and nothing else. She's getting some of that back now.

Well hey it takes at least skill to be able to make the damage come to use. It's like a gun. All the damage is useless if you can't get the opponent caught in a good combo (which requires mixups, tricks, ect.) : P

 

At least we're getting DAMAGE back in this version. I can't wait to cheese people out with falling jB into 7k again. Woooooo ~

Wait wha? When was there a combo like that!? 0_0 Does it require the garu trick (please let it not be)!? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS SENPAI! (Because the closest to that damage I can get with Lizz is a combo kinda like the one you see in Challenge 31 which I just recently completed btw. My life is now complete... <3) 

 

While they said the proration was weakened that does not mean the 1000 SMP is gone on Garu. We'll get a little more damage tho, think of it as she is more "complete". Also the 2C change could a tiny bit help it not get upbacked.

So wait does that mean the SGCoD (Super Garu Combo of Doom) is still alive now? Great... well time's passed so I might finally learn how to do it. I just hate the fact that doing the combo is different with every character...

 

But now that I have replied to everyone I'm SOOOO happy they buffed her. Though most of the buff is basically increasing her damage (which kinda sets us back to square one from P4U or a bit better than that) at least the moves that she has seem more useful like Randomizer. And the D garu recovery time thing is by far the best thing about this since the Garu landing recovery was always kinda the one thing that ended up giving the opponent the round... ^_^;;

[Elochai]

Her corner oki was literaly busted. It didn't matter how much damage you did to them in order to get them in the corner. It could be an auto-combo and it made no difference. Now you're in the corner and your opponent is dealing with fear and/or Agi oki. And possibly paralysis, freeze, or poison. Also, maybe confusion. Also...Liz might have all the meter in the world at this point. Also, Liz still has a burst! Yaaaaaaay *cough*

I'm legitimately curious: do you mean busted because you were stacking status ailments, or for some other reason? I wanna know why you believe so.

 

Wait...

NEW PATCH!? WHEN WAS THIS!?@!?!

 

Wait wha? When was there a combo like that!? 0_0 Does it require the garu trick (please let it not be)!? TEACH ME YOUR WAYS SENPAI! (Because the closest to that damage I can get with Lizz is a combo kinda like the one you see in Challenge 31 which I just recently completed btw. My life is now complete... <3) 

 

The patch comes out on the 24th iirc. 

The combo I'm referring to is jB > 5B > 2AB > garu elevator > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > AOA OMC > wail. Does 6.8k, or if you got jB FC, it's like 7.2k I think. Garu is Elizabeth's best combo route. You gotta learn it, man.

 

I'm so happy that this forum is alive with actual gameplay discussion btw.

[DeathArcana]

Im confused, what does it mean by 2c travel distance increase, isnt that where Thanotos stands still and does that howl/burst thing? So does it mean the blast radius has increased?

[Elochai]

It probably means as it says: Thanatos moves further forward. Thanatos always moved forward (albeit slightly) when doing 2C.

[Luminos564]

The patch comes out on the 24th iirc. 

The combo I'm referring to is jB > 5B > 2AB > garu elevator > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > AOA OMC > wail. Does 6.8k, or if you got jB FC, it's like 7.2k I think. Garu is Elizabeth's best combo route. You gotta learn it, man.

 

I'm so happy that this forum is alive with actual gameplay discussion btw.

I thought the patch was already live and the, reported new characters are coming out on the 24th/25th? Bah, whatever, I can wait a week.

 

Also yeah, we finally have something gameplay related to talk about. We were running a virtual desert for the last few months. Now I need to actually learn Garu loops. Never could get the hang of them in P4A since I got much more reliable damage off of the SB Maragidyne routes. Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say.

 

Im confused, what does it mean by 2c travel distance increase, isnt that where Thanotos stands still and does that howl/burst thing? So does it mean the blast radius has increased?

It probably means as it says: Thanatos moves further forward. Thanatos always moved forward (albeit slightly) when doing 2C.

 

Basically what Elochai says. Whenever Thanny does 2C he moves slightly forward though it was barely noticeable. With this one, he should be able to move further forward which I argue should help land Mabufudyne easier since 2C's untech time is still less than P4A.

[OmnixTSC]

I'm legitimately curious: do you mean busted because you were stacking status ailments, or for some other reason? I wanna know why you believe so.

 

Busted b/c everything your opponent could do when put in that situation was a gamble that could lead to their death. It's not right, man (though I loved doing that to people).

[TD]

doesn't sound like she's moving far from her current position tbh, decent buffs that will probably only make her life a little easier.

[OmnixTSC]

doesn't sound like she's moving far from her current position tbh, decent buffs that will probably only make her life a little easier.

 

They're quality of life buffs instead of actual fixes for the character. It's a start, though. We'll see how these pan out come next week, hopefully.

[RWA Announcer]

I know it's a bit early to be asking this, since the patch isn't live yet, but I'd like to ask some of the better Liz players here, like Bace, Omnix, and Elochai, do you think these buffs, small as they may be, will leave her better, the same, or still worse than she currently is in P4A?  She'll still have problems, but they fixed a few things it seems.