[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Luminos564]

Thanks for the answers guys.

 

I'm pretty convinced that Damosu is a wizard (it's not like he's really good or anything!!!).

 

Either that or he's T-800 sent from the future to protect every potential Lizzie player from abandoning the character no matter how many shiny new characters ATLUS&ASW throw out.

 

A & SB are so much better than B now. There's probably no reason to use B since the recovery is horrendous, and you can't cancel it into anything anyway (plus the freeze change too, like Klisan said).

 

Wow, they really did a pounding on (B) Mabufudyne, didn't they? Chalk another pretty useless move on Lizzie's repertoire. It's a head-scratch sometimes how she can have so many moves that are just not worth using. (B) Mabufudyne, (D) Ghastly Wail, (SB) Mind Charge, Mamudoon and (SB) Mamudoon, Mahamaon (its combos look easier somewhat due to (SB) AWK.Maziodyne/Magarudyne but still circumstantial enough) and before the patch, Randomizer/Debilitate was there. I'm tempted to put Diarahan in there but that's still a move that recovers health so not doing that despite a good number of players hardly using it.

[Strife]

I'm a total klutz and I don't know how to timestamp on Twitch, but here's the archive of Overlord Damosu™ bodying people in the qualifier. Skip to 4:52:37 / 5:02:18 / 5:21:17 / 5:46:13.

 

I'm pretty convinced that Damosu is a wizard

 

Trying to get those on YouTube!

 

And yes, Damosu is actually a wizard. He arrives wearing black at the arcade with a staff in hand. While his opponents cower in fear of not knowing the match-up, he destroys them with high level sorcery that we never heard or know about.

 

Everytime he arrives, the lowly mortals whispers to themselves: "I-Is that E-Elizabeth p-player...".

Edited July 21, 2014 by Strife

[BlackYakuzu94]

He will be the god that leads us to tomrrow.

 

 

And kudos to the bufu nerfs.

[Eshi]

Trying to get those on YouTube!

That'd be super great, I'll add them to the video thread once you do so. I've got to watch these archives today. After playing Elizabeth at Evo, I feel much more enthusiastic about the game and maining her. She may still be bottom tier but she feels a hell of a lot more well-rounded than before, regardless.

[Strife]

Done, check the video thread!

[GBAer64]

Phew... I'm so glad that Liz's flick (grab) on counter hit still wall bounces. I always seem to catch myself throwing a lot during situations. XD Though why I'm happy is that I can still do the CD<66<5C<A236 combo. Or Grab<Dash<Thany-slash<A Maziodyne for clarification. 

 

Also is it me or is AB Maziodyne's visuals not correspond with the "width" of the beam at 5:04:25 of the Twitch stream by Elocahai? By that I mean how Yosuke doesn't get hit when he crouches from the midair Maziodyne. Especially viewable on the second charge.

 

(Crap I don't know how to Timestamp on Twitch Streams. Why is it different than Youtube vids!?)

 

Oh yeah and I was thinking of posting some videos for self-critique but I don't know how to upload my recorded matches (nor do I know where to discuss this so I'll take this part out when this is answered).

[Elochai]

Oh yeah and I was thinking of posting some videos for self-critique but I don't know how to upload my recorded matches (nor do I know where to discuss this so I'll take this part out when this is answered).

 

There's a thread for that!

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5165-p4a-elizabeth-self-improvement-and-critique-thread/

[GBAer64]

Thank you very much for that. Sadly I don't have any equipment to record my matches in a non-crappy quality fashion. But I guess a phone will do...

 

On the other hand, I'm a bit worried about Adachi (and a little bit about Marie too). Since Adachi is a "Short-ranged Trickster who actually uses his gun and inflicts fear status ailments",  I'm a little worried about what sort of tricks are up his sleeve.

 

Especially with the fact that he uses Heat Riser, Evil Smile, Ghastly Wail (Goddammit Arc-y you could at least give him another move that isn't already there...), Megidola, and Atom Smasher. I don't have the specifics though but a page and a the Dustloop wiki has some more specific showings of his moves.

 

I really am scared though, his move set from what I can see, shows some really strong mixups that could be totally annoying. Especially with how Evil Smile can be taken out at any given moment. Where a ghost pops out and inflicts fear if it touches you (basically Mitsuru's Marin Karin but scarier looking).

 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tohru_Adachi_(P4AU)

http://pastebin.com/Ua4UTjDh

 

If this is getting off-topic I'll kindly take it out if that's the case btw.

Edited August 3, 2014 by GBAer64

[TastyPancakez]

I'm not really one to talk with my experience but we don't know how he plays that well yet.

From his moveset the worst I could imagine would be fighting a good Elizabeth, but idk if Adachi is all that trouble really.

[GBAer64]

Well what else is there to talk about Lizzie right now?

 

The worst of my imagination about Adachi right now is the fact that he could easily send an untechable grab with his Evil Smile, news also tell that he'll have a confuse status ailment.

[TastyPancakez]

Uh...is Mitsuru still an annoying matchup? I heard Coup Droit isn't as scary.

[SupaFella0]

For me it was more the 5A.

[Elochai]

It seems that some Japanese Elizabeth players are starting to use 214B in combos. I'm not exactly sure if these routes are better than their 214A/AB counterparts damage wise (Damosu's corner routes are slightly different), but it's at least interesting to me to see that 214B is even being used at all.

One example combo is jB>1HSM 5C(2)>2C>214B>2C>236AB>5B>2B>jC. It did 3.1k~. I've also seen routes with 214B off of 5D FC as well. One of the Elizabeth players who uses these routes can be seen in this video (this particular Liz player is good too, so I would say the video is worth a watch anyway). The 600 odd PSR Liz in the other set of Osaka Umeda videos does combos with 214B as well.

[GBAer64]

What were the properties of A and B Mabufudyne again? And now that I think about it. Do they have a buff during awakening? (Forgive me for asking)

[Luminos564]

So...I had this rather vivid dream where somehow, ATLUS and ASW released information that after Margaret, Lizzie would be "rebuilt". They then proceeded to list their changes point by point which I will post here because I really thought it was interesting enough to share.

 

But just to avoid any possible confusion, let me stress that the information here is strictly from my own, subconscious mind. It in no way represents any plans either ATLUS or ASW have for the character. It also had Mori imitating Elvis while Daisuke Ishiwatari magically spoke perfect English with no accent but details.

 

*Health: Upped to

 9000.

*P. Cards: Upped to 8.

*Invigorate no longer suffers from cooldown upon using SP. SP gain is slightly slower to compensate.

 

New Move(s):

*J2.C: Aerial version of 2C that causes hard-knockdown.

 

*Mind Charge: Input changed to 22A/B/SB. No longer requires 50SP and has been reworked. It no longer puts Elizabeth into Awakening. Instead it gives her an icon above her meter that upgrades her next Maziodyne, Mabufudyne, Magarudyne or Maragidyne. For easier reading, “[MC]” is used for its effects listed. The universal upgrade is upped damage (+30%) on the move. [A] version gives 1 charge. It’s fast and can be comboed after. version gives 3 charges but can’t be comboed from afterward. [sB] version gives 2 charges and can be comboed from. Maximum stack is 5.

 

*Crazy Chain: 22C/D/SB. Strike-throw that sends Thanatos in front [C] or behind [D] the opponent and inflicts Rage afterward. [C] and [D] versions toss opponent away from Lizzie. [sB] version is a teleport to the front of the opponent and Thanatos tosses them towards her.

 

*Virus Wave: 236236A/B/SB. New 50SP skill. Counter move that will activate on melee or projectile but not on throws. Thanatos does Haku-men's Yukikaze that inflicts Poison. [A] version covers high and mid attacks. version covers mid and low attacks. [sB] version covers all 3. Consumes the 2C buff.

 

Changed Moves:

*Dash/Backdash: Now has Azrael's dashes. Air dash remains the same.

*Shuffle Time: Has a minor vacuum effect. Can now be done in the air. Air version tosses opponent behind Lizzie.

*Guard Cancel: Changed to her throw animation where she’ll just flick the opponent away.

 

 *This is where things get extensive due to Mind Charge bonuses.

 

*Maziodyne:

-[A] version fires the thin blast in a 45 degree angle as an anti-air. [MC]: the blast has a larger hitbox and causes wall-bounce. Air version fires it 45 degrees downward.

- version fires a tracking electro ball, similar to Dormammu’s fireball Hyper Combo and can no longer be charged. [MC]: ball is larger and stays out longer.

-[sB] version is the fully charged Maziodyne from before (and still causes Paralysis) but Lizzie can move right after it. MC: fires the blast twice and wallsticks. The air version is really amazing though. It has Thanatos fire the blast similar to an air-version of Shuma-Gorath’s Mystic Ray (as in the blast goes in an upward arc) and like the ground version will wallstick.

 

*Mabufudyne: All versions no longer consume the 2C buff and can only get damage boosts from [MC].

-[A] version remains the same. [MC]: Upward slash causes opponent to float higher for easier follow-ups.

- version has faster start-up and better damage, but the recovery is still poor and thus only useful in combos. [MC]: it is granted the near full-screen teleport and faster start-up.

-[sB] version same as current un-Awakened. [MC]: Thanatos fires 2 icicles instead of just 1, functioning similar to Mitsuru’s version.

 

*Magarudyne: All versions get full projectile invulnerability when using [MC] stocks.

-[C] version has her do a forward-dashing attack. The distance traveled is not very long though. [MC]: the distance is much larger and has her go forward then back. Air-version is similar but cannot be comboed after.

-[D] remains unchanged. [MC]: Does more hits and can be cancelled early into a normal or Maziodyne.

-[sB] is the current Awakened [sB] version. [MC]: longer untech time.

 

*Maragidyne:

-[C], [D] and [sB] versions are same as P4AU (un-Awakened). [MC]: changes them to the Awakened version but with an additional blast that send the opponent upward like the end of Shadow Labrys’ 236C/D/SB (on hit only) so you can follow up with things like Mabufudyne or J.D.

 

*Mahamaon, Mamudoon and SB Mamudoon:

-No longer disappear on block. Mamudoon recovery is better. [sB] Mamudoon tracks Lizzie’s movements until activation.

 

 *Megidolaon:

-It is no longer a counter move. Instead it places the Megidolaon into the air and begins a timer similar to Carl’s former Astral. The move is unblockable and does not disappear on hit but can be dodged by the opponent if they use a move with invulnerability frames or defeat you before the timer runs out. It will also not connect if you are performing a combo on the opponent. If it connects, the stage is reduced to a wasteland with Lizzie’s win quote changing to “Oh dear, my finger slipped”.

 

*Normals:

-5A is now 0 on block.

-J.B has a larger hitbox.

-2B will reflect small projectiles back.

-5B comes out much faster and has better recovery on block.

-2C has a damage threshold similar to Asterius but weaker.

 

And that’s about it really. Obviously this being something from my own head it’d look a little too overpowering but I think some of these would have been pretty good changes/additions. I apologize if this isn't something to be discussed and I will not push this beyond this single post.

[Elochai]

What were the properties of A and B Mabufudyne again? And now that I think about it. Do they have a buff during awakening? (Forgive me for asking)

 

A has faster startup, and short freeze time. B has slower startup, and long freeze time. In awakening, they startup faster and do more damage (not 100% on the damage, but I believe that to be true). Players used SB since it combined the startup of A with the freeze of B. 

 

So in comparing the 5B FC route the 11PSR Liz player used to the 5B FC route that Damosu used in his combo video, I'm led to believe that going for the 214B route might be better. You're spending the same amount of meter for both combos (25SP in this case), but the 214B route does about 600 more damage. Longer combos seemed to drop if the Liz player went for 214B, assumingly because 214B is too slow. I suppose we'll have to play around with it when the console version comes out.

 

Btw, if you know who this Liz player is, let me know please. He's too good to be unknown lol.

[GBAer64]

The one in the video you used? Hmmm well I'll try to read it real quick. The quality is very iffy for me though (I'm new to Nico Nico)

Edit: Ack...it's too blurry... DX 

 

Also doesn't the SB version go really fast and "track" the opponent? Now that I think about it... what's the recovery of the three versions? At least in comparison with each other of course.

 

If the SB version has a long recovery that might be risky against fighters like Yukiko who have a surprisingly fast air dash.

 

Does 214 B also move forward a bit like in the original? Or does it stay in the same spot like original 214A?

[Elochai]

A has the fastest recovery at 71f, B is 95f, and SB is 107f. I'm not sure if SB tracks, but it does go really, really fast and flies across the screen. I don't recall if 214B goes forward, but 2C moves farther forward as of 1.1 iirc.

 

214AB's recovery is an issue, but it's a somewhat useful tool at neutral. You can call people out doing stuff fullscreen. I suppose the recovery is the price of having a tool like that.

[GBAer64]

Well if it were any shorter I guess it would be wildly unfair for anyone to fight against us. No one would even bother jumping unless we didn't have 25 SP. 

 

Are there any invincibility frames like 2C has though? If it can travel fullscreen that fast, it might just end up being completely nullified with Yukiko's fans or a arrow from Yukari.

 

Ah well, is there any use for 5AAA by the way? I'd imagine that you could just use AC to pass through it during the auto combo on block. That's just a guess though since the time between the two attacks seems just enough to AC out and punish.

[Cré-Klisan]

I noticed something interesting in Damosu's Poison and Debilitate combo video, when Thanatos does 2D into 5C, it looks like he uses his position from 2D as opposed to how 2D basically reseted his postion back to Liz in Arena, similar to how J.C keeps his position, also his recovery from 2D looks MUCH more faster as he was able to use 5C almost right after spraying the poison, I don't recall being able to pick up from 2D's position before, either way, 2D seems alot more interesting in Ultimax

[Cré-Klisan]

Sorry for double posting and I'm sorry if this is a bit too pessimestic but I have to say this, I'm sure that all Liz mainers and enthusiasts like me here, especially ones who have been tracking her closely, are aware that things haven't been looking that great for Liz in Ultimax, sure some argue she's the same, some argue she's better/worse etc, but let's look over a couple of things, she has lesser damage from her skill attacks, in Arena she can easily get between 3500 to 4000 plus damage with 25 meter which she could easily steal the match with, now it seems without Fear, poison and/or Debilitate she has much lesser damage than in Arena, this irritates me beyond belief, the fact that ASW let already too strong characters like Narukami retain their Skill attack damage while making an already bad character like liz have LESS damage is just unbelievable, and if that's not enough, instead of giving her a new actual damaging super or a better overhead normal option or fix Mamudoon and Mahamaon instead of being practically useless (even disappearing on block) or at the very least replace them with something viable, we get a counter, that has a risky charge motion, this is also something that irritates me, they give characters like Yosuke a new super AND new skill attack, Narukami even gets a new skill attack,a new over-powered super (that doesn't need his persona and doesn't even require him to be in awakening) and a new Hidden super, we get it Atlus, you want to over emphasize Narukami, even if it means making him cheaper than ever before.

 

this is the most thing that bothered me about her changes, during the early stages of Ultimax, Liz looked so much better, she had cool stuff like two ice wave Mabufudyne, which looked so awesome, now ASW trashed so many important things about her, 5D has pathetic range, B Bufu doesn't freeze like it did before, so we need SB Bufu to go into Maragidyne wich has less hits now and SB Maragi has the Pillars go forwards then backward instead of twice like in Arena, Mind Charge was one of Liz's most important attacks in Arena, the great thing about it is that you can combo into it and out of it while recovering blue health, now we have to choose between quick recovery but no blue health or getting blue health but having longer recovery, or use even MORE meter for the SB version, it's like she has to reach awakening to be decent, ASW made characters like Kanji, Naoto, and Yukiko better, why can't they do so with Liz?

 

this is something that I consider very important, one reason why I loved Liz in arena was that she looked so cool, her combos looked so big and fun, like 2C into B bufu with thanatos doing that awesome animation with his coffins releasing the ice, then into SB maragi that had two pillars at once, now her combos don't look quite as fun.

 

and as much as I love Liz's ability to inflict nearly every ailment, I dislike having to go through so many gimmicky things just to trick the opponent, now it seems in order to be effective, we have to go through poison/fear and now negative penalty, it's like ASW said "let's take away her damage but give her a new move that's a counter in order to deal good damage, which provides another obstacle before she can actually do damage, that'll keep her from being totally bad" in Arena we had good damage right off the bat, we didn't even need to be in awakening to do it (except for Ghastly Wail, which was also nerfed), I know that the game isn't even released yet and we still don't know much about Debilitate, it could turn out to be a good-reversal for all we know.

 

it just saddens me that ASW could not see how much potential they had with Liz for the sequel, they could have made her amazing, they could have blown her out and made her something, really the Liz that everyone wanted, but instead they would rather work on everyone else but her.

 

Again I say this not to be pessimistic and I'm really sorry if anyone didn't like what I mentioned, but I waited for a long time before really reflecting on this, I thought with the patch update and with the days leading up to the japanese release, ASW would actually do something great with her, but who knows? maybe at release she could actually be better, or maybe ASW would finally make her into a viable character through patches or something, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[TD]

Hey, her pressure got a buff and she has some more practical potent stuff. Mamu combos look easier? It seems more like they just shifted her gameplan so that instead of her being more Rushdown/ meter oriented, she can be more versatile in neutral. She is still far from good but I like this Liz. Could she do just a little more damage? That I will agree with. Liz can compete a lot better than she could have in the first game even with reduced damage and riskier options with questionable merit.

[Cré-Klisan]

Although I still don't think that Mahamaon is practical (it still requires lots of Meter, setup, time) I sure hope you're right about everything else and that she may be overall better, hopefully we can tell when the game is released.

[Elochai]

I still think this Elizabeth is better than P4U Elizabeth. Her improvements just don't matter much in the grand scheme of things since some of the other characters got better as well. It would at least seem like Elizabeth players got an improved "quality of life" (for the lack of a better term).

 

and as much as I love Liz's ability to inflict nearly every ailment, I dislike having to go through so many gimmicky things just to trick the opponent, now it seems in order to be effective, we have to go through poison/fear and now negative penalty, it's like ASW said "let's take away her damage but give her a new move that's a counter in order to deal good damage, which provides another obstacle before she can actually do damage, that'll keep her from being totally bad" in Arena we had good damage right off the bat, we didn't even need to be in awakening to do it (except for Ghastly Wail, which was also nerfed), I know that the game isn't even released yet and we still don't know much about Debilitate, it could turn out to be a good-reversal for all we know.

 

Wasn't P4U similar? I mean, I almost always went for fear+paralyze in the corner, for example. There was little reason not to do it since it gives you such a great advantage. Status ailments are just the name of the game with this character imo. I can somewhat agree on the damage comment though, but I'm not sure if that'll be one to stick around. I think there's still unexplored combo routes. I even saw a Liz player do garu elevator in a recent video. There're even players that are using 214B in combos now. I'm sure we'll be able to squeeze out more damage with Liz when we actually get to hit the lab with her. To be quite honest, it's not only combos either. I've only seen 236 oki once since P4U2 has come out; it's a really strong tool and no one uses it. I'm sure there're a lot of setups that players are sleeping on.

 

With that being said, the console version is out in only 11 days. We'll be able to try whatever we want soon.

[TD]

Wow 11 days. Que clapping audience.

Please are these Liz good because if so I would love to watch them. Currently I only know of Damosu, who is without argument best Liz. But who is second in command and so on. A list of good Liz I can look for or videos of known/unknown names would be nice please.