[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[GBAer64]

Well we can still use Mind Charge right? I mean, it's not the best choice since we'd have to sacrifice even more for the SB version (which is basically Mind Charge from before) but if we need to finish off the opponent, then we must. Or you could use it if you're feeling cocky/confident. : P

 

Wait they can't awaken? It feels strange to think of it that way. They have more health, but they can't have damage reduction when they're near death... I wonder what the reason for not giving awakening is?

 

At the very least I think they can still use awakened SP specials though right? Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I did remember seeing a Shadow Chie perform an insane combo with like two Agneyastras and two God Hands (and a lot of Power Charges) within one Shadow Frenzy combo. @_@

[Luminos564]

Well we can still use Mind Charge right? I mean, it's not the best choice since we'd have to sacrifice even more for the SB version (which is basically Mind Charge from before) but if we need to finish off the opponent, then we must. Or you could use it if you're feeling cocky/confident. : P

 

Honestly I'd say that if you're in the corner and want to make extra sure they stay dead, Mahamaon ender is the better option since, while it may not be any easier on the SP and is perhaps a slightly harder feat, it will kill them outright. The only advantage I can see you opting for Ghastly Wail is if they have a Burst and Mahamaon will almost almost always prompt them to use it to stop it, while a GW combo may leave them more conservative of its use thus giving you the momentum you want in the match.

 

Wait they can't awaken? It feels strange to think of it that way. They have more health, but they can't have damage reduction when they're near death... I wonder what the reason for not giving awakening is?

 

They also do 20% less damage but that's a small price since Shadow Frenzy can lay waste to opponents (see S.Chie and S.Mitsuru) and SP flowing like a fountain for them. Now imagine if they Awakened at low health. They get a 20% damage reduction on top of their better health and 150SP to play with, meaning Shadow Frenzy last EVEN longer. S.Chie can do up towards 8000+ in Shadow Frenzy already. What do you think happens if she lets loose and has even more time to spend using it? 

 

At the very least I think they can still use awakened SP specials though right? Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I did remember seeing a Shadow Chie perform an insane combo with like two Agneyastras and two God Hands (and a lot of Power Charges) within one Shadow Frenzy combo. @_@

 

They do. They always have access to the Awakened SP skills, which is one part that makes them dangerous in Shadow Frenzy. Or at least, some of them. The lack of a Burst for them and you being able to Burst out of their fancy Shadow Frenzy combo (though there are some that can prevent you from doing so) is there to keep them in check.

[Elochai]

I want to find a way to combo into 2C>236AB from SB Randomizer. I agree with you guys on how deadly negative penalty is. There's a lot of potential for robbery if you can land paralysis+negative penalty+fear. FC throw combo w/out awakening already does like 4k, so it'd hit for a little over 6k in negative penalty. Maybe you'd run the game back on 2 combos without ever entering awakening . 

 

I'm still kinda iffy on wail in this version. On the one hand, you can still hit 7.5k with wail ender, but it costs all your meter. I suppose it doesn't really matter if you mind charge when you have high HP though. I dunno. I'll see how I feel when console comes out I guess.

Btw, you guys should enter tournaments if they're near you (and you can afford to go of course). Not everyone has a local scene; you should utilize it to level up if you can  . 

 

So Arc Revo happened.

Okusan was Liz it looks like which I thought was weird since I'm pretty sure he dropped her. Unless I'm mistaking him for someone else...

Didn't spot Damosu either so I guess he didn't make it?

Anyways no great Liz presence in this Arc Revo tournament

 

I think you're confusing Damosu for Okusan. Okusan plays Minazuki now, and he hasn't gone back to Liz yet. I thought Damosu was the sole Liz who made it into Arc Revo too. I could be wrong though.

[TastyPancakez]

^ I mean I looked at the brackets and it said "Oku-san yadayada" and his name had Liz next to his name. Even the results said Liz I think. I didn't see Damosu's name there at all.

http://shoryuken.com/2013/05/19/arc-system-works-festival-streaming-live/

Could just be the website but idk.

Can't you combo 214AB from Randomizer? Then it would be possible to do 2C -> 236AB, or is it just 214A?

[Vvvv]

things

 

2013

[TastyPancakez]

^ Oh. my bad lol

[GBAer64]

I'm not sure if 2C is possible though since the place the opponent falls is at the middle of the screen (I think) and Elizabeth, whilst performing the move moves faaaaaaaaar back in to the corner where her back is turned. Or am I thinking wrong?

[Elochai]

Well you're right. You'd have to do 64AB>stuff>2C>236AB. Or maybe just 64AB>214AB>236AB? I'll know soon enough anyway.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[OmnixTSC]

I'm glad you had a good laugh but I do hope you realize, I never stated that this was more than first impressions on my part. I even acknowledged that it might not turn out as good as the trailer makes it out to be.

 

Unless of course you deliberately posted this to mess with me in which case: shame on you  .

 

I knew that it was just first impressions, but that doesn't make the statement any less silly. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but that's the kind of stuff we really don't need being dropped in a forum. One move (especially an AoA which people can already see answers for) is usually not going to be the reason for one character being better than another. 

 

Now for the Hama vs Wail discussion. As noted already, Hama is a good option to go for if you don't have to worry about your opponent's burst. It is also, however, an option that is better used in the last round of a game in most cases if you're not fighting a Shadow character (or at least that's the way I look at it). 

 

The biggest difference between the two options is that you have to activate Hama as early as possible in a combo to prevent your combo from proarating too hard as well as allowing you to land enough hits to last past its activation, while Wail can be used generally from any starter as long as you didn't already use your SB Bufu and you can reach the corner. It doesn't require really good starters + resources or just all of your resources (burst and meter), though those are options available to you. Near the corner with the 1HS buff or an air-to-air/anti-air starter, Hama doesn't require all of your resources either...so that's definitely worth noting!

 

All that aside, we aren't going to be using Wail nearly as much as before (some people won't use it at all due to how aware you have to be of different situations to use it now). There are just going to be certain scenarios where it makes more sense to go for Wail over Hama, though they may be far and few in-between.

[GBAer64]

Well you're right. You'd have to do 64AB>stuff>2C>236AB. Or maybe just 64AB>214AB>236AB? I'll know soon enough anyway.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

64AB? I guess that's what we'll be naming Randomizer's command right?

 

 

There are just going to be certain scenarios where it makes more sense to go for Wail over Hama, though they may be far and few in-between.

Well knowing what to do in every situation is the best way to go. So it's best just to learn to use both options and practice. You never know, every nifty little trick is what makes a decent/great player.   : P

[Luminos564]

I knew that it was just first impressions, but that doesn't make the statement any less silly. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but that's the kind of stuff we really don't need being dropped in a forum. One move (especially an AoA which people can already see answers for) is usually not going to be the reason for one character being better than another. 

 

Yeah looking back, I don't know what I was thinking. Probably a combination of long working days, late evenings and feeling under the weather. Sorry. But we shiv and burn or however that saying goes so hopefully I don't make claims like this in the future. Though I trust most people here know better when they see some obvious mistakes.

 

The biggest difference between the two options is that you have to activate Hama as early as possible in a combo to prevent your combo from proarating too hard as well as allowing you to land enough hits to last past its activation, while Wail can be used generally from any starter as long as you didn't already use your SB Bufu and you can reach the corner.

 

Don't take my word for this, but I do not think Mahamaon has proration at all. The only time I saw its damage reduced was when the opponent hit Awakening but it still deals more than 13K on its own which is still more than any Normal Type (normally it is like 24K from Mahamaon and 20K from Mamudoon, even though you're likely never to combo into the latter). Rather, I'd argue that we need to do Mahamaon as early as possible because of its long activation time. It makes sense I think. If it activated instantaneously like Naoto's Hamaon, I could see it getting its damage severely cut down.

[Zephyrion22]

The biggest difference between the two options is that you have to activate Hama as early as possible in a combo to prevent your combo from proarating too hard

 

 

I think he just meant you have to use Hama as early as possible in a combo so that the opponent doesn't tech before the time is up and therefore miss your IK

[OmnixTSC]

I think he just meant you have to use Hama as early as possible in a combo so that the opponent doesn't tech before the time is up and therefore miss your IK

 

Yeah, that's what I meant if it wasn't too clear. They'll tech out way before Hama gets to activate if you added a bunch of filler to your combo. We have to manage the amount of normals/specials we use based on the starter if we want to avoid that scenario.

[Luminos564]

Yeah, that's what I meant if it wasn't too clear. They'll tech out way before Hama gets to activate if you added a bunch of filler to your combo. We have to manage the amount of normals/specials we use based on the starter if we want to avoid that scenario.

 

Ah I see.

 

Actually, all this talk of Mahamaon makes me wish that Mamudoon's recovery wasn't so damn terrible. It's activation time is shorter and lasts longer so it'd be useful as an alternative if you find your opponent would get their Burst back during a Mahamaon combo. It's not like Mamudoon's height is a problem either since all you'd need to do is make sure to launch them with 2C, Mabufudyne, Magarudyne and etc. And although more costly, SB Mamudoon places itself on the ground in front of Lizzie which eliminates the height restriction altogether.

[GBAer64]

And although more costly, SB Mamudoon places itself on the ground in front of Lizzie which eliminates the height restriction altogether.

Wait it does!? 0_0 That sounds amazing (even though it also sounds horrible...). So is Mamudoon so long in recovery that we can't even punish moves like Aki's Maziodyne or Teddie's "Teddie Circus"? If that's the case than it's a lot worse than I thought...

 

Also can Magarudyne "loop" in Awakening like "Unawakened" version can do?

[Luminos564]

Wait it does!? 0_0 That sounds amazing (even though it also sounds horrible...). So is Mamudoon so long in recovery that we can't even punish moves like Aki's Maziodyne or Teddie's "Teddie Circus"? If that's the case than it's a lot worse than I thought...

 

I think I miswrote when I described SB Mamudoon. It basically just places the seal in front where Lizzie is standing, slightly above the "floor". It's still good though in that regard since it still fires horizontally and it has a pretty damn good hitbox. But as you already know, the recovery is terrible enough that even if you super cancel from AWK. SB Mabufudyne, the opponent has enough time to break out and punch you in the face for using it. That's ultimately the move's biggest flaw. If it's recovery was good that we could do something like:

 

FC Air throw>5B>5C>Mind Charge A>2C>AWK SB Mabufudyne>Mamudoon>combo filler>Death *As a bonus, since it is a horizontal hit, it could cover a lot more area at once and potentially be the go-to instant death attack at midscreen.

 

Well in theory anyway. The move itself has good properties like how it activates much faster than Mahamaon and lasts longer than it too. But the recovery prevents it from being utilized in such a manner.

 

Also can Magarudyne "loop" in Awakening like "Unawakened" version can do?

 

I think they can loop but not in the same manner. Truthfully, when Awakened, I have trouble figuring out which Magarudyne version is being used. I always assumed the SB version holds the opponent in place and is that big tornado animation. But then I see them use a non-SB version and it does the same (though not as long-lasting).

[GBAer64]

I think I miswrote when I described SB Mamudoon. It basically just places the seal in front where Lizzie is standing, slightly above the "floor". It's still good though in that regard since it still fires horizontally and it has a pretty damn good hitbox. But as you already know, the recovery is terrible enough that even if you super cancel from AWK. SB Mabufudyne, the opponent has enough time to break out and punch you in the face for using it. That's ultimately the move's biggest flaw. If it's recovery was good that we could do something like:

 

FC Air throw>5B>5C>Mind Charge A>2C>AWK SB Mabufudyne>Mamudoon>combo filler>Death *As a bonus, since it is a horizontal hit, it could cover a lot more area at once and potentially be the go-to instant death attack at midscreen.

 

Well in theory anyway. The move itself has good properties like how it activates much faster than Mahamaon and lasts longer than it too. But the recovery prevents it from being utilized in such a manner.

 

 

 

I think they can loop but not in the same manner. Truthfully, when Awakened, I have trouble figuring out which Magarudyne version is being used. I always assumed the SB version holds the opponent in place and is that big tornado animation. But then I see them use a non-SB version and it does the same (though not as long-lasting).

If it's just a bit above the ground than truthfully, Mamudoon would be the preferred instant-death attack to use most likely since being able to cover as much area as Mamudoon can do would allow it to be used in more combos. But I guess the recover IS as bad as you guys are saying. : /

 

Seriously though... it's kinda sad to hear that you could basically be punished no matter what limitation/binding/recovery your opponent is in while using Mamudoon since I can see just how much pressure Elizabeth could apply if she could throw it around during the match (at least during the neutral phases of a match)

 

 

 

I used to think the same about the Awakened Magarudyne too actually (the SB thing). I'm guessing it's easier to loop in the awakened form since the move just throws the opponent straight up and back down on the same spot rather than requiring all of that falling physics stuff that old/unawakened Magarudyne has.

[Elochai]

Strictly speaking from a frame data perspective, looping garu in awakening isn't as good as doing it outside of awakening (or as good as looping it in the first game). It's like 500 or 600 P2 in awakening, compared to the 100 P2 outside of awakening (this is the same value that it has in P4U1 as well). 

[GBAer64]

Strictly speaking from a frame data perspective, looping garu in awakening isn't as good as doing it outside of awakening (or as good as looping it in the first game). It's like 500 or 600 P2 in awakening, compared to the 100 P2 outside of awakening (this is the same value that it has in P4U1 as well). 

Can I at least guess that it's better damage wise? (Don't know what P2 is so I probably sound like I don't get what you're saying which is the case)

[Elochai]

I'm not an expert on this kind of thing by any means, but it's basically like this: the more prorated a combo is, the faster the hitstun of the combo decays, and the moves in the combo begin to do less and less damage. So, therefore, if you tried looping awakening garu, the damage most likely wouldn't be good, and the combo would have to be really short because it would be heavily prorated and drop if it went on for too long.

 

In P4U, the closer to 0 a proration value is, the better it is.

[Eshi]

Hey guys. Just to let y'all know ahead of time, I am attending Dragon Con this weekend. I won't actually get to play the game or moderate the forum until late Monday or Tuesday. I plan on remaking all the old threads for P4U2 but won't have time to maintain them until then. 

[Luminos564]

Hey guys. Just to let y'all know ahead of time, I am attending Dragon Con this weekend. I won't actually get to play the game or moderate the forum until late Monday or Tuesday. I plan on remaking all the old threads for P4U2 but won't have time to maintain them until then. 

 

No worries, we can hopefully behave in the meantime (not that Lizzie's playerbase has troublemakers but details). Enjoy the Con.

 

I'm not an expert on this kind of thing by any means, but it's basically like this: the more prorated a combo is, the faster the hitstun of the combo decays, and the moves in the combo begin to do less and less damage. So, therefore, if you tried looping awakening garu, the damage most likely wouldn't be good, and the combo would have to be really short because it would be heavily prorated and drop if it went on for too long.

 

In P4U, the closer to 0 a proration value is, the better it is.

 

Oh so that's why nobody really loops AWK. Magarudyne. Even in Mahamaon combos where the damage doesn't matter since the move itself will kill them outright with added 20K, they don't really tend to use it more than twice. Probably because of AWK. Maziodyne.

[TastyPancakez]

Wait, are Garu loops still in the game? Unless you mean Garu is used 2x in a combo it seems like the closest thing a loop is the combo that follows 5D in P4A. (j.B, j.A, j.C)

I mean I guess they could still exist but they don't seem optimal.

Also just wondering are the obnoxious match ups (Mitsuru, Yosuke, Yu) still obnoxious?

[Elochai]

To be quite honest, I haven't seen anything beyond the old garu elevator that existed in P4U1 (and I'm not sure if this counts as a loop since it's 2 diff versions). I do agree with you though. There's not really any reason to do garu loops in this version since there're better combos. 

 

Elizabeth's bad MUs from P4U1 are still applicable to this game, at least in my opinion. 

[TastyPancakez]

Dang. I don't want to deal with more Mitsuru's and Yosuke's lol.

Not sure about Yu though. He seems less obnoxious as a matchup overall because his sweep -> D is gone and he can't lock you down anymore. Though he does have other tools...