[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[OmnixTSC]

Don't get me wrong. IAD j.B is still a valid and very powerful tool in neutral. However, if your whole neutral game is based around throwing j.Bs, then you're practically banking on random hits more than anything else. While I don't think I've seen anyone take it to this extreme, I still think it's worth pointing out that there're a lot of other good tools that Liz has in neutral. You know, like 2AB and 5C (this one is iffy though) lol.

I agree with the comment on j.B. To use it effectively, you really have to learn angles. Angles that will allow you to deal with different approaches while keeping you out of danger. Also, don't get me started on 2AB in neutral. At NEC in casuals, Bace hit me with 2AB AA at round start and I died. This was pretty hilarious. Everyone froze wondering what the heck had happened.

*cough* Anyways...2AB is a pretty good anti-air if you can use it properly. Leads to a lot of meterless damage and a midscreen corner carry. It's also good for playing footsies as you can score a knockdown when people least expect it by using it at max range. 5C is...kind of weird. It can be either really good or lead to your unfortunate demise at any given point in a match. I really don't know what to say about it outside of making sure to use it sparingly, even in the corner.

I'd more so call 2B OMC a 3 way mix-up, since it's high/low/throw, unless I'm the only one who puts throw in there. I dunno, but I think throw is a useful mix-up tool especially when the other person expects you to hit them with a high/low, so they're busy trying to block instead of tech the grab. I'm arguing semantics, but yeah. I agree on the new 5AA/5BB being useful. I once saw something like 5A > 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5BB. Makes me wonder how much stronger stagger/catching jump-outs will become.

Funny that I forgot about throw even though I go for it off of 2B OMC (I'm silly). Stagger pressure does indeed look really nice in P4U2. I hope we can see more with it soon (if JP Liz players can start doing stagger pressure ).

I guess all we can do is wait like Omnix said

(or convince Okusan to play Liz again/get someone to record Damosu)

.

After some of the things Okusan said on twitter, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays Liz a lot still, even if he focuses on Showboat . She's basically his waifu. I think we can depend on Damosu for the most part, though. The waiting game is fun, isn't it?

[Elochai]

I agree with the comment on j.B. To use it effectively, you really have to learn angles. Angles that will allow you to deal with different approaches while keeping you out of danger. Also, don't get me started on 2AB in neutral. At NEC in casuals, Bace hit me with 2AB AA at round start and I died. This was pretty hilarious. Everyone froze wondering what the heck had happened.

*cough* Anyways...2AB is a pretty good anti-air if you can use it properly. Leads to a lot of meterless damage and a midscreen corner carry. It's also good for playing footsies as you can score a knockdown when people least expect it by using it at max range. 5C is...kind of weird. It can be either really good or lead to your unfortunate demise at any given point in a match. I really don't know what to say about it outside of making sure to use it sparingly, even in the corner.

I'm not sure if this is relevant to P4U2, but at least in P4U, 2AB was very underused for its usefulness IMO. Besides corner carry and damage like you said, it was also an easy meterless confirm. One can argue that meterless vs metered isn't very important with Liz though. It's the easiest meterless confirm too I think; 2B > j.B > 2AB is kinda finicky. Is 5C backdash cancelable in this version? If it's only forward dash, then I don't see how it's going to be much better (unless of course you can dash cancel on whiff, like Ragna's deadspike), unless you're setting up for throw setups or something. Of course, usefulness in combos is a different topic.

Funny that I forgot about throw even though I go for it off of 2B OMC (I'm silly). Stagger pressure does indeed look really nice in P4U2. I hope we can see more with it soon (if JP Liz players can start doing stagger pressure ).

I don't know why stagger pressure never caught on in JP. It's quite strong, especially considering the character we're playing. A lot of JP Liz players from what I've watched just like to hang themselves by doing silly stuff. "Yeah man, I'm going to mash super jump j.B and 236A! I play this character!!!"

After some of the things Okusan said on twitter, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays Liz a lot still, even if he focuses on Showboat . She's basically his waifu. I think we can depend on Damosu for the most part, though. The waiting game is fun, isn't it?

If you're playing Liz and she's not your waifu, I would ask why you're playing her. Digressing, but yeah. I haven't seen Okusan Liz pop up in any videos so far (though to be fair I haven't checked Nico in like a week).

[Luminos564]

To be fair to the JPN Lizzie players, the character herself has a really "weird" playstyle. I mean, I played the hell out of her and enjoyed every minute, but if you were to ask me to classify her playstyle I'd be drawing a blank. Maybe it is the same for them, especially now that she's received an overhaul in the new system. I'd wager to guess that people are still adjusting to it and since not many seem to even want to play her competitively, it is taking longer than for say someone like Yu.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Luminos564

[Dazardz]

Yes! A new video. Now I have something to post about.

Ta, using that amazing blockstring/pressure (whatever you wanna call it, I'm not good with that stuff) that just went on for ages! When Teddie tried to jump out he was even pulled back to the ground. Really nice, I think 5C > 66 was really effective. In awakening, I didn't see him abuse Maragidyne, which he may not of done for a reason, I have no idea. He did use Maziodyne to get Teddie to stay in his place.

All I have noticed so far. I wish I could see more of this. Damosu, where are you?

(He also used, 2B > OMC > j.A. Bace, your a legend!)

[TheArm05]

Too bad he threw the last round in the dumbest way possible so once again we see a Liz go one and done.

Dash cancel 5C looked pretty good but the Teddie never tried mashing 5B. If any safe followup after 5C DC stuffs Teddie mashing 5B then it is really legit.

That Liz did ok but still I haven't seen anything that impresses me. Almost everything he did he could have done before and he did SO MUCH LESS damage...

[Elochai]

I actually wanted to talk about this. Ta is actually decent (surprisingly!).

I'm very pleased with 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5BB. It's amazing. I'm glad to see that hop cancels seem good too, however I'm somewhat disappointed that it seems like you can't use them for mixups; the hop looks really slow. I agree on 5C dash cancel.

One thing I noticed about Ta was that he/she was really eager to get into awakening. So eager that Ta gave up 60% or so life for it. I guess Liz might be better in awakening after all lol.

[Luminos564]

As happy as I am to see more JPN Lizzie players, I must confess that I am furious that Teddie of all characters is giving her trouble. It just feels wrong on so many levels that a powerhouse like Lizzie is being beaten by a failure Shadow. It's like seeing a 600 meter tall colossus being beaten by a single fire ant, that's how ridiculous it looks to me.

But enough of personal raging, let's talk gameplay.

I'm very pleased with 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5BB. It's amazing. I'm glad to see that hop cancels seem good too, however I'm somewhat disappointed that it seems like you can't use them for mixups; the hop looks really slow. I agree on 5C dash cancel.

Same here. It actually looks like a legit blockstring. Surprisingly effective too considering Lizzie was able to close in after keeping the Teddie locked for a bit, despite her own sluggish movement speed. I didn't notice the dash cancel in action (maybe due to the video quality), but given people's reaction, it seems like 5C>66>5B is a legit threat that the Teddie didn't want to risk.

One thing I noticed about Ta was that he/she was really eager to get into awakening. So eager that Ta gave up 60% or so life for it. I guess Liz might be better in awakening after all lol.

That's another thing. Lizzie gets very nifty bonuses in Awakening. But doing so when you don't have the opponent locked down seems to be ill-advised. I'd have at least made sure the opponent was Shocked with SB Maziodyne, Mind Charge then SB Diarahan. At least that way, you can prevent a projectile counter since SB Diarahan is immune to them. Especially so if you've blowing through 60% health.

Personal observations:

-Oh Philemon, that (A)Maziodyne and (B)Mabufudyne recovery, along with that 5D range . Looked like it took forever to have Thanny come back and 5D looked slllloooooowwwww. But I like the tracking that 5C does. Kept Teddie locked with 2C>5C despite being pretty close to him.

[Elochai]

Doesn't Teddie give Elizabeth problems in the first game? While it's just my opinion, I always thought that TD v EL was in Teddie's favor. I assume it would be the same in this version as well. That's neither here nor there though, I guess.

5C DC happens during 5C (1), similar to 2ABC I suppose. I'm assuming 5C DC > xx works because it might catch up-back? I would think button mash would beat 5C DC > stuff though, as Arm sorta suggested. By the time 5B comes out, you're probably liable to getting hit in the face (that move has bad startup after all).

Yeah, I'm not too surprised people want to awaken as fast as possible (though Ta did it stupidly/without thinking). Now it's like Liz is one & a half characters (in the sense that her moves are different in awakening). 2[C] still looks pretty nice.

Btw, Garu > 2A > 2B > j.B > j.A > j.C is the future.

[Dazardz]

Doesn't Teddie give Elizabeth problems in the first game?

I think, think, that he meant canon-wise. Elizabeth governs power, and she killed Persona 3:FES's final boss with only one slash. Teddie is technically a shadow but came out as a failure, kind of. If he didn't mean that, don't mind me

I also saw Ta using SB Mabufudyne a lot in awakening from fullscreen, trying to catch Teddie jumping I guess. I didn't see Teddie get hit, but it looks maybe, very good if used properly.

[Luminos564]

Doesn't Teddie give Elizabeth problems in the first game? While it's just my opinion, I always thought that TD v EL was in Teddie's favor. I assume it would be the same in this version as well. That's neither here nor there though, I guess.

I think, think, that he meant canon-wise. Elizabeth governs power, and she killed Persona 3:FES's final boss with only one slash. Teddie is technically a shadow but came out as a failure, kind of. If he didn't mean that, don't mind me

I was leaning more towards story-tiers than actual gameplay ones. But gameplay-wise, Teddie DID have an edge over Lizzie in P4A. However, I don't ever remember it being THIS bad. I mean, it's a battle between two gimmicky characters, just that the furball's options aren't flushed down the drain whenever Kintoki-Douji gets broken. Then again, almost nobody used Teddie in P4A so maybe just not enough was ever recorded. That said, Teddie is like BB's own Hazama as far as characters go. He annoys me both personality-wise and how he plays. I'd rather play a 1000 P4A Lizzie vs. Mitsuru matches, than having to listen to Teddie for one second longer.

I also saw Ta using SB Mabufudyne a lot in awakening from fullscreen, trying to catch Teddie jumping I guess. I didn't see Teddie get hit, but it looks maybe, very good if used properly.

Are you sure it was the SB version? SB Mabufudyne is supposed to teleport to your opponent's location and I didn't see it do that. It might have been the Un-Awakened version, which IIRC, is still pretty terrible.

And that is something which has been bugging me for a while. I get what ASW tried to do by giving Lizzie distinct features/advantages between Un-Awakened and Awakened states. Though it helped define her gameplay style, it also had the adverse effect of making her not as good until she reaches that point. Sure, Mind Charge makes it a cinch to enter that state, but it is a very risky gamble with severe consequences if your defensive game is not up to snuff. Finding the right time to do it is crucial but unfortunately, the right time to do it can still backfire.

[Dazardz]

That said, Teddie is like BB's own Hazama as far as characters go. He annoys me both personality-wise and how he plays. I'd rather play a 1000 P4A Lizzie vs. Mitsuru matches, than having to listen to Teddie for one second longer.

Oh yes! Amen to that!

Are you sure it was the SB version? SB Mabufudyne is supposed to teleport to your opponent's location and I didn't see it do that. It might have been the Un-Awakened version, which IIRC, is still pretty terrible.

I just watched it again, and it was not the SB version. Elizabeth was surely in awakening, could have been B version or A version. Either tracks the opponent and goes really far across the screen.

And that is something which has been bugging me for a while. I get what ASW tried to do by giving Lizzie distinct features/advantages between Un-Awakened and Awakened states. Though it helped define her gameplay style, it also had the adverse effect of making her not as good until she reaches that point. Sure, Mind Charge makes it a cinch to enter that state, but it is a very risky gamble with severe consequences if your defensive game is not up to snuff. Finding the right time to do it is crucial but unfortunately, the right time to do it can still backfire.

An excellent demonstration of how bad it can be to force yourself into awakening is shown in the last round

I don't know what to say about this though, or what ASW was thinking. I know Liz has low health but that is not really an excuse to give her the awakening boost.

[Luminos564]

I just watched it again, and it was not the SB version. Elizabeth was surely in awakening, could have been B version or A version. Either tracks the opponent and goes really far across the screen.

Only the B version should do that then. A version is still the single, stationary upward swing. Though, it is curious Ta was using Mabufudyne at all at that range in order to fish for hits. I mean, I know Maziodyne doesn't hit as much anymore but we do still have Awakened Maragidyne (that speed is no joke you know). Compared to that, Mabufudyne is incredibly slow and puts Thanny more at risk since it brings him closer to the opponent.

An excellent demonstration of how bad it can be to force yourself into awakening is shown in the last round

I don't know what to say about this though, or what ASW was thinking. I know Liz has low health but that is not really an excuse to give her the awakening boost.

Perhaps if ASW treated her with HP rivaling Kanji (or even maybe surpassing it ) then I'd understand it. I get that people would cry foul over a character who can force herself into Awakening, SB Diarahan and then have 13,000 HP again with damage reduction, but as it stands, Lizzie is just too fragile on that front with lowered damage overall. She needs an edge over the rest because right now, it doesn't look like she has it over any other character. Well besides Kanji, but who DOESN'T have an edge on Kanji these days?

[Dazardz]

Perhaps if ASW treated her with HP rivaling Kanji (or even maybe surpassing it ) then I'd understand it. I get that people would cry foul over a character who can force herself into Awakening, SB Diarahan and then have 13,000 HP again with damage reduction, but as it stands, Lizzie is just too fragile on that front with lowered damage overall. She needs an edge over the rest because right now, it doesn't look like she has it over any other character. Well besides Kanji, but who DOESN'T have an edge on Kanji these days?

HP over Kanji!? I'm not sure about that, but ya never know. Her damage is lower, she has a harder time opening up the opponent than others, her 5D command grab is shorter and etc.

Sure she needs more HP, but HP over Kanji seems wild! Hey, ya never know, it could work! :D

[RifleAvenger]

I'd rather see her damage go back up. In those recent Liz videos, Damosu had to burn 75 meter to get near where we were meterless (off more starters) previously. I know the goal was to lower the damage overall, but certain characters still seem to hit damn hard (Narukami, Aigis...). Without having to put themselves in danger mode to do it. Hell, I thought the concept behind her was supposed to be her overwhelming power, so why does most of the cast seem to hit harder, and/or with better tools, and with more room to take risks? It's like ArcSys hates this character.

I don't like Liz being half a character pre-awakening either.

[Elochai]

I've seen Narukami get like 6k off of CH DP .

With how Damosu plays Elizabeth, I'm very convinced that Elizabeth works best in awakening. This seems seriously silly to me. You have 2-3 chances against most characters, but if your play isn't on point, you can effectively go from 2 chances to 1 by forcing awakening. Elizabeth in awakening looks really cool though. She can cover a lot of the screen with projectiles, and force the opponent to block. 236A even seemed to wallbounce(?).

I think one of the combos Damosu did only used 25 meter for 236CD (in awakening) and he pulled like 3.8k from it + oki. For this one specific combo, the damage differential didn't seem too bad. At that, I don't think the combo theory is quite worked out for Elizabeth yet. I'm glad we get j.B > falling j.A > j.C off of various things now. j.B CH untech time also seems glorious. Damosu had enough to land from his jump's apex, and 5A to continue his combo.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Elochai

[Dazardz]

I don't like Liz being half a character pre-awakening either.

This one line knocked a lot of sense into me. ASW wants us to get into awakening if we want to play a good character?

- We could even get killed before we enter awakening anyway.

But Elizabeth is amazing in awakening though, Maragidyne is great for neutral.

[Elochai]

This one line knocked a lot of sense into me. ASW wants us to get into awakening if we want to play a good character?

- We could even get killed before we enter awakening anyway.

Steal a page out of the Damosu playbook: use 236236A as soon as you get 50 meter. Problem solved!

[TheArm05]

ASW forcing us to play even MORE risky in p4u2. Clearly Liz is much stronger in awakening then outside of it so it will be all about when you choose to mind charge.

Damosu got mind charge off for free a lot because he was against shitty kanji. I feel like this will be an entirely different problem against Mits/Chie/Aigis/everyone else. I hope they at least made Mind Charge full invuln.

I liked a lot of the options I saw Damosu using. j.C > j.D seems really useful and Thanatos in general seems to have a lot more options in terms of remote control. This was my favorite part of Liz before and looks like even more fun now.

All that being said I am still SCARED. Mits/Aigis/Narukami all look stronger, Chie will one shot us, and zoners will still outzone us. I hope new Liz can keep up.

[Luminos564]

ASW forcing us to play even MORE risky in p4u2. Clearly Liz is much stronger in awakening then outside of it so it will be all about when you choose to mind charge.

I keep thinking that despite the lack of blue health, (A)Mind Charge > (SB)Diarahan is the safest bet due to (A)Mind Charge having no recovery. Granted you ARE blowing through 125 SP and may not have the full health, but when your offensive prowess goes through the roof, then you might as well bite the bullet.

Damosu got mind charge off for free a lot because he was against shitty kanji. I feel like this will be an entirely different problem against Mits/Chie/Aigis/everyone else. I hope they at least made Mind Charge full invuln.

Full invulnerability Mind Charge would help IMMENSELY. Sadly, ASW doesn't seem to realize it.

I liked a lot of the options I saw Damosu using. j.C > j.D seems really useful and Thanatos in general seems to have a lot more options in terms of remote control. This was my favorite part of Liz before and looks like even more fun now.

I agree. JC>JD was unexpected and I love it. I thought Thanny was awesome once he was able to JD a frozen opponent from (A)Mabufudyne but this is even more useful. Thanny in general seems to have more ways to survive unless you're being really stupid with him.

All that being said I am still SCARED. Mits/Aigis/Narukami all look stronger, Chie will one shot us, and zoners will still outzone us. I hope new Liz can keep up.

We're ALL scared. Zoners can be dealt with (SB)Diarahan but it isn't like they'll just spam projectiles if they see you use it. The Holy Quartet (Chie/Mitsuru/Yu/Aigis) are all still incredibly strong and snuff out virtually anything we do to them. I can only hope that ASW does some re-tuning at a later date because, I shouldn't have to fish out Kanji's if I want to win.

[CaptainLiz]

Did anyone else catch that interesting Damosu combo at 12:15 in the last Leisureland Akihabara video (starts with Damosu punishing the kanji's dp)?

If I saw that right, he pulled off a hop mid combo to continue it mid-air.

When the fate of Elizabeth seems to be in question, Damosu always delivers.

[Luminos564]

When the fate of Elizabeth seems to be in question, Damosu always delivers.

Just because Damosu can win with Lizzie that doesn't change the fact that 1. as a character, she's severely lacking (no reliable Furious Action/reversal option, almost entirely reliant on Thanatos, low health and lacking damage for a proposed glass cannon as of P4U2) and 2. she's outclassed by much of the cast and has no real advantage that other characters offer. Even Kanji of all characters can at least offer up the damage for his shortcomings. Damosu is able to use her well but even he has, what, 492 wins out of 953 games? And when that's one of the most prominent Lizzie players, then the future of Lizzie is looking turbulent at best.

I apologize if I sound like a Negative Nick, but no matter how much I look at it and as much as I love the character, Lizzie needs something more than what she has now. I am not gonna stop playing her, but if my only option is to be as good a player like Damosu (which is a tall order on its own and I doubt almost anyone can do it) then things are not looking too good for me.

But, it isn't all bad news though. I think ASW did have a decent idea when it came to Lizzie and with some polish, it can really shine. Pre-Awakening, she's not good. When Awakened, she really gets going. The trouble is that with her low health, she's playing a far too risky a game when she has no defensive options. And we know that ASW is unlikely to give her Kanji levels of health. But since Awakening is imperative to her gameplan, why not allow her to be the one character that can Awaken with lower health requirements. Most characters need to lose 75~80% to Awaken yes? So why not allow Lizzie to Awaken at 50%? That way you're still keeping her core gameplay intact but making it better and having her last longer if you're not going to up her damage. I also tinkered with the idea of giving her Shuffle Time a vacuum effect that draws the opponent in. They can still tech it, but at least this way, they can't simply jump out of it and JB punish it like Mitsuru can.

[Dazardz]

I also tinkered with the idea of giving her Shuffle Time a vacuum effect that draws the opponent in. They can still tech it, but at least this way, they can't simply jump out of it and JB punish it like Mitsuru can.

That is actually a great idea, like really good.

And I got some time to watch Damosu against that Kanji player. Since Damosu was able to resist getting hit after Mind Charge, he regenerated a lot of health. And he seemed to be really in control. Maybe if there was a better Kanji player, I'd like to see how it went. Nevertheless what Luminos is saying, is absolutely true.

I've tried to get across the point before, and got shot down for it, but I'll try to say it again.(Tell me if I'm wrong.)

Elizabeth isn't any better because every other character has got decent improvements, and the buffs Liz got is not good enough. She also lost some decent things, like huge damage.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Dazardz

[TheArm05]

Shuffle time is just a horrendous F-Action. They need to scrap it and give us something that at least has some kind of decent use. Since Liz is now much more in line with the rest of the cast in terms of damage there really is no excuse at this point for her dp to not at least fall under the "bad" category (Labrys) instead of the "useless" category.

[bace]

Garudyne has fatal counter recovery :X

[Eshi]

I was totally sleeping on those new match videos, finally someone shows us what Liz is capable of! vs. Kanji Damosu instantly used mind charge once he had 50 meter basically every match. Her damage is a lot lower but her options are A LOT stronger than before. Definitely still an honest character considering the stuff that Yu/Mitsuru/Chie get access to without manually putting themselves in awakening, but still, I'm excited about this character again.

Garudyne has fatal counter recovery :X

but awakened Garudyne is huge. HUGE! I liked the part where Damosu was playing against yosuke and was like, NOPE, and scooped him up with garu for pressing buttons.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Eshi