Order-Sol vs. Sol

[reaVer]

Nah, he shoulda been swept before that.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If you jump his GF however: he has to FRC it and then his mixup will be intercept/antiair 5K into blablabla/groundthrow right after you land. This pretty much means FD till you land and backdash/SV right after landing and you pretty much destroy any form of mixup he has to offer. Then if he dedicates himself to baiting that SV, you can actually attack him before you land.

If this works for you, your opponents are sleeping. FD to the ground = you get airthrown by anyone halfway competent. Even if he attacks and you FD, you get pulled to the groud by your blockstun and he can still pressure you by throwing out a GF FRC which you won't be able to jump out of due to air FD blockstun.

SV against Sol is a horrible idea because all he has to do to bait it on offense is to throw out a sweep during his frame traps and then you die.

[Sesshyru]

That doens't seem risky? They could continue the string and you end up getin ch'd or jump and slash your face a few?.. >.> and if you jump gun flame they will catch on and grab you or somethin And if he ever blocks your Storm viper in a jump in... woah.. >.>

[reaVer]

If this works for you, your opponents are sleeping. FD to the ground = you get airthrown by anyone halfway competent.

I guess Isa is incompetent.

Even if he attacks and you FD, you get pulled to the ground by your blockstun and he can still pressure you by throwing out a GF FRC which you won't be able to jump out of due to air FD blockstun.

Except now he has lost half a bar, next to that if he decides to continue pressure you can SV him. I'm also pretty sure you can backward jump out of the GF or backdash it, regardless of FD stun.

SV against Sol is a horrible idea because all he has to do to bait it on offense is to throw out a sweep during his frame traps and then you die.

Except that if you guard/evade wrongly and eat the mixup, you eat just as much damage!! A sweep by itself isn't that advantageous either for that matter, he'd have to buffer a cancel which usually means... another GF FRC!! which also puts his tension down for a 50% total.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

It is a lot easier (and safer!) to attempt to guard/escape mixup via defensive techniques, rather than SVing which is an all-or-nothing gamble that has low return and very high risk. Note that if you successfully defend against Sol's mixups, he usually leaves himself open and you'll probably get a knockdown or a damaging punish. Risk/reward is much better if you opt to face the mixup rather than trying to SV out of everything and dying because of it. Sol is one character that has a very easy way to bait SV, so this makes attempting it against him a pretty bad idea. BTW stop basing your arguments off of match videos and go play some matches.

[reaVer]

It is a lot easier (and safer!) to attempt to guard/escape mixup via defensive techniques, rather than SVing which is an all-or-nothing gamble that has low return and very high risk. Note that if you successfully defend against Sol's mixups, he usually leaves himself open and you'll probably get a knockdown or a damaging punish. Risk/reward is much better if you opt to face the mixup rather than trying to SV out of everything and dying because of it. Sol is one character that has a very easy way to bait SV, so this makes attempting it against him a pretty bad idea.

I'm not quite sure what your opponent is trying for normal vs throw mixup, but simple shit like 5K5S for hitconfirm is enough. The only risk he'd take is for throwing... but wait! you're in the air or backdashing and probably not really anywhere close to punishing that attempt with proper attacks. You'd need l3 to get passed the 200 damage against Sol and Sol will probably be in your face all the time so you won't get it; at least, the Sol I played was in my face all the time... I don't know what incompetent person you are playing and I don't care.

BTW stop basing your arguments off of match videos and go play some matches.

I actually play matches and what I posted works in them. I gave Isa as an example to show pretty quickly that what you said is impossible to live up to for a Sol player and is pretty much only possible if you never attack(which means predictably guarding) Sol from the air in the first place. In short, what you said there was bullshit for the most part. Next to that it shows its actually a match proven method of dealing with GF FRC and not just something I made up myself and tested vs noobs.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

"One match" is not a match-proven example, especially when it's a match you never played, featuring players you've never faced or talked to! Just because Isa didn't punish it in that one situation doesn't mean it's "impossible". If it works for you, fine, but I don't see it working more than once or twice. Certainly not a cure-all. If you backdash a command grab attempt, that is free Fafnir. If you backdash it in the corner, you have many more options, but backdashing in the corner is generally a bad idea. If you're in the air, you can airdash forward to punish. Sol whiffing a comand grab = bad for Sol, good for you. BTW, what I said was bullshit? You base entire strategies off of being able to SV out of everything and being apparently psychic, which is some real bullshit. I swear, impossible to have any kind of discussion with you at all.

[Hintalove]

I would just like to point out the fact that if the sol frc's the gf and you jump and go for a j.h, he will beat it with 5k or vv in the best case scenarios, and a massive 2h ch in the worst case. He can also frc directly into jumping p if you get ultra predictable. You basically put your self in a position where the best thing going for you is your ability to mixup with dj and air dash back, but realistically there should be no real reason for the sol to end up being forced to do anything at your mercy in that situation. Also remember, any time you can sv, he can vv. Toss that in your theory fighter pipe and smoke it. Not saying jumping forward in reaction to gunflames is a bad idea. On the contrary, it is imperative to getting free damage in a place where you should. I just want to point out that it's not as black and white as "If sol gunflames x is guaranteed" except in the situation of no frc. Also note that you blocking grounded normals in the air sucks up your meter just like his frcs. Why don't we all just suck it up and learn to sb gf on reaction? Only other thing I really have to add to this matchup discussion is how much I hate the massive sol combos hos gets nailed with.

[Hatred Edge]

I always wondered about that. Why doesn't Sol's GF get SBed? Granted I personally use GF on oki so they can't SB it on wake up and run under GF FRC cover... So I take it's because Sol doesn't use GF as heavily as Testament uses EXE beat or KY uses SE?

[Nakkiel]

I always wondered about that. Why doesn't Sol's GF get SBed?

Granted I personally use GF on oki so they can't SB it on wake up and run under GF FRC cover...

So I take it's because Sol doesn't use GF as heavily as Testament uses EXE beat or KY uses SE?

That and if you fuck it up it's a free combo for Sol

[WUT]

That and if you SB it and he FRCs GF you have no advantage.

[Hintalove]

I'd take a neutral situation over being forced to block something avoidable, but I agree for most people sbing gf isn't really something you can realistically count on. I just really hate hurdling towards some one that has one of those mystical j.h defeating anti-airs. And technically, in a neutral situation at that range, hos is a lot more dangerous assuming you're sitting on tension. Either way it's food for thought. What throw combo do you do on the sols? I've been kind of cheaping out and doing running jump 1/2 dustloop land 5s js d djd(sometimes another js if i feel like it's going to allow for the other jd) into either brp or nothing into potential tech trap. I know it's not the manliest thing ever, but I actually have been using this combo a lot recently seeing as the damage difference between it and a real dloop is minimal and it has all the same perks, just easier to execute.

[reaVer]

k, I tested in training mode: if Sol does GF FRC and you backjump forwarddoublejump the following AA situations can happen: 1. Sol does an early 5K, OS does a late j.H. The result is that 5K whiffs against OS doing nothing and then j.H hits for whiff punishment. 2. Sol does a late 5K, OS does an early j.H. The result is that Sol gets stuffed for CH. 3. Both attack early. Sol's 5K AAs successfully. 4. Both attack late. Sol's 5K AAs successfully. 5. Sol VVs, OS guards. OS can punish. 6. Sol VVs, OS attacks. Sol could follow up with a 200dmg combo. And then there's the airthrow thingie, but you can guess what the results would be:P I haven't posted this combo anywhere before, but perhaps it will work on Sol: throw, j.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S©-H j.D(, dj.D), l2BRP. I haven't tested lately if I could land the combo consistently myself, but it might be worth a shot.

[Nakkiel]

For throw combos I just run up and do a HJI combo on everyone. Also, reaver, depending on how early Sol does 5K, he will recover in time to throw out another one. Don't fuck with 5K

[Hintalove]

hj combo sounds like a waste, you can get way more damage out of doing the harder combos in the throw situation. As for the commbo you posted reaver, sounds interesting. I doubt it would work/knock down the lighter side of the cast, but having random 5h is always a good thing damage wise.

[Nakkiel]

I got lazy with the throw combos, I know. I used to do one like the one reaver posted.

[LM_Akira]

hj combo sounds like a waste, you can get way more damage out of doing the harder combos in the throw situation.

As for the commbo you posted reaver, sounds interesting. I doubt it would work/knock down the lighter side of the cast, but having random 5h is always a good thing damage wise.

Vs Sol I use the throw combo:

dash j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D land 5S© HJC hj.S, j.HS, j.D (Lv1 BRP)

Dust Loop and corner hj re-juggles from 5S© do near enough the same damage from any given situation (literally a few points difference).

If I'm on Lv2 I'll just do a straight Lv2 BRP after the first part of the combo for an easy knockdown. Might be adventurous sometimes and try a full DL into Lv2 BRP or perhaps something like j.P, j.S, dj.S, j.D, Lv2 BRP instead of the re-juggle. Otherwise I'll just use the hj re-juggle . Depends on my mood I guess.

The questions you've got to ask yourself are;

Do I want safe/easy damage?

Do I want a safe/easy knockdown?

Do I want big damage (harder to do) but no knockdown?

Am I going to be a man and strive for big damage AND knockdown?

lol

Also...

k, I tested in training mode: if Sol does GF FRC and you backjump forwarddoublejump the following AA situations can happen:

1. Sol does an early 5K, OS does a late j.H. The result is that 5K whiffs against OS doing nothing and then j.H hits for whiff punishment.

2. Sol does a late 5K, OS does an early j.H. The result is that Sol gets stuffed for CH.

3. Both attack early. Sol's 5K AAs successfully.

4. Both attack late. Sol's 5K AAs successfully.

5. Sol VVs, OS guards. OS can punish.

6. Sol VVs, OS attacks. Sol could follow up with a 200dmg combo.

And then there's the airthrow thingie, but you can guess what the results would be:P

A huge flaw with all this testing and discussion is that you haven't mentioned how close Sol and Order-Sol are to one another.

And even if you tested it with exactly the same spacing apart every single time, that neglects the fact that this kind of situation can arise in matches from completely DIFFERENT spacings between Sol and Order-Sol.

What if Sol does a dash buffered GF FRC? How do the timings from your testing differ? What if the Sol player knows you like to do this stuff on auto-pilot and starts putting in GF feints to catch you?

[Sesshyru]

Well.. I don't think Reaver was trying to give stats for every situation/theroy.. >.> anyway @Akira: At your "questions to self" about what to do vs sol in the combos, wouldn't it be better to hold the lvl 2 charge and AC FRC to a lvl 3 (using the big dmg with no KD option) because a KD on sol (gona give out my bad skill here) means possible VV? I ant that good, but I don't run up / rush down on sol, I bate. >.>...

[reaVer]

LM_Akira: To get over a GF from its proper range you're forced to backjump forwarddoublejump or you'd get hit; with further you can jump over it normally and work from there and with closer you can't even jump. Any proper spacing, which is quite a few pixels, does end up at the same situation(and I tested this). MissedFRC: if you get a hunch that you're late on your whiff punishment you could come down with j.S-P and go from there.

[LM_Akira]

@Akira: At your "questions to self" about what to do vs sol in the combos, wouldn't it be better to hold the lvl 2 charge and AC FRC to a lvl 3 (using the big dmg with no KD option) because a KD on sol (gona give out my bad skill here) means possible VV? I ant that good, but I don't run up / rush down on sol, I bate. >.>...

That depends on the Sol you're playing really. If he likes to reversal VV you can just bait and then punish.

If you did a big damage combo on Sol and could end it with Lv2 air BRP for knockdown (i.e. you're close enough to the ground for Lv2 air BRP to knockdown) I would take the knockdown.

Doing a Charge Keep Lv1 BRP AC FRC to get to Lv3 in that kind of situation isn't well advised, yeah you go up one level but you're also letting Sol escape any possible oki.

You can get a safe AC from knockdown Lv2 air BRP anyway, 1 quick manual charge or 1 or 2 CC'd normals later and you have your Lv3.

[reaVer]

throw combos: 5S sj.S-H-D, dj.H-D, l1BRP: 128 dmg rj.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S, sj.S-H-D, l1BRP: 143 dmg rj.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S, j.S-D,dj.D, l2BRP: 146 dmg rj.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S©-H, j.D, dj.D: 146dmg rj.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S©-H, j.D, l2BRP: 147dmg rj.H-D,dj.H-D, j.S-D, dj.H-D, l2BRP: 148dmg

[WUT]

Corner throw -> dashing j.HS, j.D jc dj.HS, dj.D land then j.HS, j.D jc dj.HS, dj.D xx Lvl2 BRP; 150 damage on Sol. 1: You have to do a dashing j.HS at the start, or the last j.D won't connect. 2: You have to delay the second j.HS so that the j.D after will hit. That lets you get the other reps. You don't really need to worry about any other particular delays, just the second j.HS (the first dj.HS).

[Sesshyru]

So help me out here... You say you post to dash, jump close then fish out a j.HS all before they bounce off the wall?.. So do you just roll it like 669 or do you let it go 66 then 9 or do you do a 6 before the throw is finished then a 69 or something O.o...

[Jais]

669 that shit after the throw. ~ryanbill

[reaVer]

Sesshryu: 56569, like this. Doing 565659 causes you to stop before you jump.