[FB] Assault vs. Blast Burst Type Discussion

[burgerkong]

I dunno if this is the right place to post this, since these subforums seem to be filled completely with individual suit threads.  If not, please let me know!

 

Anyways, since I've been unable to get my hands on the game for now (have to hold off till summer due to university), I've been mostly watching vids and theorycrafting.  One of my main questions is burst types for particular suits.

 

I've noticed in like 90% of the Japanese FB matches people are using Blast, which makes sense given the more neutral-based meta of FB and the various other beneficial aspects of Blast (longer duration for suits like Quanta and 00, faster reload for important weapons like Full Cloth's CS's, and step-cancelling various projectiles).  My question is, are there any suits that would use Assault?  Immediate standouts include Master, but are there any others?

 

Some of the burst types that I found surprising/uncertain about:

 

Turn A - Blast.  Somewhat surprising, but it makes sense.  Step cancelling Main (hammer) for zundas is incredibly good, and the importance of landing Moonlight Butterfly is not nearly as important as in vanilla, since Turn A has so many new/buffed tools now.

 

Turn X - Assault? Nothing important to reload or step cancel here, but at the same time melee isn't spectacular and Moonlight Butterfly is so long it doesn't matter if EX meter or boost is preserved after it.  No clue here.

 

Destiny - Blast. Despite being somewhat-melee oriented, I guess the benefits of Blast are more important here (maintaining ammo on its low BR, step-cancel boomerang?).

 

Epyon - Assault seems obvious, but I've seen a mix of both in vids online.  Blast does not seem good at all, since Epyon doesn't have a Burst Mode like Trans-Am or anything to reload or even step-cancel (all his moves are rainbow-step-cancellable since they're melee).  Anything I'm missing?

 

The rest of the 3k suits seem to heavily favour Blast Burst IMO.  Assault Burst is still certainly usable and you will still definitely win with it (I've seen SF Assault vids), and I feel FB comes a lot more down to overall player skill and teamwork in the neutral rather than EX Burst timing or choice.

 

As an aside, the bursts on the 3k and 2k suits seem fairly straightforward due to their fixed roles in good team comps (3k always front, 2k always back).  2.5ks seem more dynamic in their Burst choice, since they either play dedicated back (3k-2.5k) or double front (certain 3k-2.5k comps, 2.5k-1k comps).  Suits like Banshee, God, Xenon, Deathscythe, The O, etc., I can see playing either burst depending on comp.

 

Please leave any criticisms or any outright omissions in the comments.  Again, since I don't have the game yet, I can't really put any of this into practice, and I want to know before I get my copy so I can dive right in.

[billngjp]

IVe been playing around with A/B burst on Xi and I feel like I like assault burst better. The increased speed and damage is really nice, not to mention the full boost return. Playing with Blast just seemed kind of lackluster, maybe im doing it wrong. Not sure what I should be doing with Blast burst. 

[burgerkong]

IVe been playing around with A/B burst on Xi and I feel like I like assault burst better. The increased speed and damage is really nice, not to mention the full boost return. Playing with Blast just seemed kind of lackluster, maybe im doing it wrong. Not sure what I should be doing with Blast burst. 

 

Blast more emphasizes the neutral game, and is more for applying safe pressure and keeping the opponent at bay.  It's definitely not as fast as Assault and can't cause massive comebacks or damage swings, but you have better BD efficiency and can step-cancel your projectile moves, which is definitely a plus on ranged suits.  It's lower risk, lower reward, which overall fits the grindy, neutral-heavy styles of a lot of suits.

 

Burst type is fairly subjective, and although certain suits seem more apt for certain bursts you can get away with any burst type depending on your playstyle and overall player skill.

 

With regards to Xi specifically, I think the main benefit though would be faster reload on Minovsky Craft while in Blast, which seems really good.  Xi also gains a massive defense buff during Blast (+25%), and the melee buffs are fairly negligible since Xi's melees aren't that good either.  Again though, it's fairly superfluous in comparison to player skill.

[brett_]

Turn-X is preference based. Just depends on how you like to use your burst. He gets plenty of advantages off of Blast, such as being able to step cancel CSa.

 

Master and Full Cloth might preference based too.

[burgerkong]

Turn-X is preference based. Just depends on how you like to use your burst. He gets plenty of advantages off of Blast, such as being able to step cancel CSa.

 

Master and Full Cloth might preference based too.

 

Turn X I can see being Blast, since it caters to his overall playstyle better.  Step cancelling CSa is very nice, I have to remember that Blast lets you step cancel things.

 

I honestly didn't really know which would be better, was going off his bonuses which are crazy good in Assault (+20% damage increase, -15% damage taken), 2nd highest bonuses behind G Gundam suits).

 

Master's melee seems too ridiculous to not be Assault IMO, and most of the Blast bonuses aside from the longer duration don't too useful (no notable ammo to reload, is step cancelling Main important at all?).  I don't know his damage modifiers in Blast, but his Assault mods are crazy (+22% damage increase, -20% damage taken).

 

I generally see Full Cloth played Blast to reload his CS's at 2x speed after using them up.  I can see Full Cloth w/CSb up and Assault being extremely scary, but it would be kind of situational.

[burgerkong]

Wait, does Full Cloth's CS's reload faster during Burst?  Just read over 00's wiki page, and it mentions 00 Raiser gauge doesn't reload faster during Burst?

 

If not, then it really does seem subjective as to which Burst to use for Full Cloth.  I've seen Blast most commonly-used on him, but that doesn't account for much.

[Z-0010332536893]

Epyon - Assault seems obvious, but I've seen a mix of both in vids online.  Blast does not seem good at all, since Epyon doesn't have a Burst Mode like Trans-Am or anything to reload or even step-cancel (all his moves are rainbow-step-cancellable since they're melee).  Anything I'm missing?

Always use Epyon in Blast. Defense buff means too much. Mix with rushing, Assaulter Cheru for maximum effect.

[burgerkong]

Always use Epyon in Blast. Defense buff means too much. Mix with rushing, Assaulter Cheru for maximum effect.

 

He gets a 30% buff to defense in Blast, and 20% in Assault, so I dunno if the 10% is really that big a difference.  The improved reload rate goes to waste too, so it's hard not to recommend Assault. Blast is definitely not the definitive Burst type for him IMO

 

Assault Cherudim seems bad, the buffs to melee go completely wasted on him, and his EX Burst is pretty bad.  Using Blast Burst to reload shield bits faster also seems much better in comparison IMO

[LukewarmHoliday]

Unicorn seems pretty preference based between blast and assault.  Movement speed in Assault NTD is ludicrous, pretty much just hinges on that argument.  Although after learning to whiff 6b the damage output between blast and assault seems pretty comparable to me though.  Unicorn also has a compelling reason to try to sneak in supers to get his NTD mode back.  But blast usually does fine with half activate NTD, using it to kill someone and blowing super against the loner or on the corpse of the person he just killed.

[Densuo]

I prefer Blast for Hi Nu Gundam, More csA, more Funnels., his EX Attack isn't anything special.

[burgerkong]

Unicorn seems pretty preference based between blast and assault.  Movement speed in Assault NTD is ludicrous, pretty much just hinges on that argument.  Although after learning to whiff 6b the damage output between blast and assault seems pretty comparable to me though.  Unicorn also has a compelling reason to try to sneak in supers to get his NTD mode back.  But blast usually does fine with half activate NTD, using it to kill someone and blowing super against the loner or on the corpse of the person he just killed.

 

I dunno, Assault seems kind of gimmicky, since it's pretty lacklustre if you use it in Unicorn mode, whereas Blast is universally good.  NT-D BD melee does become pretty ludicrous though.

 

Unicorn doesn't have anything super important to reload, but Blast improves BD efficiency and also lets it amekyan from anything (turnaround BR > amekyan, BZ > amekyan, etc.) which is fairly nice compounded with Blast's faster reload times (assists reload ~4s).

 

I prefer Blast for Hi Nu Gundam, More csA, more Funnels., his EX Attack isn't anything special.

 

Yeah, both Hi Nu and Nu are both hard to argue for Assault, their melees are good (Hi-nu's is slightly better thanks to its BD melee and 2b option) but not spectacular and they both heavily favour the neutral game.  Increased red lock range = more funnels from even further away, and funnels are step cancellable.

 

And Hi-nu gets a faster reload on his Psycoframe Resonance, which is really great :D

[Dances w Ninjas]

Master should always opt for Assault. 300 damage off of something as fast as 6BBB>6BBB is too good to pass up.

[burgerkong]

Master should always opt for Assault. 300 damage off of something as fast as 6BBB>6BBB is too good to pass up.

 

I've seen some people opt for Blast due to longer duration and better BD efficiency, and Master still has crazy good buffs in Blast.  However, I agree that Master synergizes with Assault better, and it's what I would normally use on Master.  Perhaps the main exception would be if my team had a stronger neutral game (which would only really be against another melee team).

[Z-0010332536893]

 

He gets a 30% buff to defense in Blast, and 20% in Assault, so I dunno if the 10% is really that big a difference.  The improved reload rate goes to waste too, so it's hard not to recommend Assault. Blast is definitely not the definitive Burst type for him IMO

 

Assault Cherudim seems bad, the buffs to melee go completely wasted on him, and his EX Burst is pretty bad.  Using Blast Burst to reload shield bits faster also seems much better in comparison IMO

Unless something's changed here (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8127), then the def/off buffs aren't associated with shooting attacks or melee attacks specifically, but apply to both.

The reason for emphasizing defense on Epyon is to accommodate his time at the front, and also allow him a few extra seconds to make his attacks. Epyon is in no position to balk at the extra 10% buff either. If the defense buff isn't enough justification, though, then consider the buff on boost consumption, which can help reduce the effects of keeping his ac active, which already increases his damage output a bit. The point is to use a burst to help momentarily make up for disadvantages and open a brief window of opportunity that wasn't exactly there before.
 

When you apply the damage modifier on assault to Cheru's main, you get a pretty nice buff to a shot that already could deal 130 dmg. You also get a really nice buff to movement speed, on top of the moderate speed he already had. His red lock already has a reasonable distance, so I don't believe it to need the large augment that blast gives it. Also, the boost penalty for defensively bursting is only 20%, which better suits Cherudim as he will inevitably be playing a more defensive role than most possible partners.

The question of which one comes down to which role you want the unit to take during the burst and which burst will help that MS for the role in mind.

[LukewarmHoliday]

I dunno, Assault seems kind of gimmicky, since it's pretty lacklustre if you use it in Unicorn mode, whereas Blast is universally good.  NT-D BD melee does become pretty ludicrous though.

 

Unicorn doesn't have anything super important to reload, but Blast improves BD efficiency and also lets it amekyan from anything (turnaround BR > amekyan, BZ > amekyan, etc.) which is fairly nice compounded with Blast's faster reload times (assists reload ~4s).

 

I'm merely pointing out I see A LOT of jp users in assault with unicorn.  I imagine most just like it for the raw space control it gives with boosted speed + cc8b.  So far I prefer blast too.  Maybe its just a preference for shuffle to make sure they can bail their partner out or force more damage.

[brett_]

I'm merely pointing out I see A LOT of jp users in assault with unicorn.  I imagine most just like it for the raw space control it gives with boosted speed + cc8b.  So far I prefer blast too.  Maybe its just a preference for shuffle to make sure they can bail their partner out or force more damage.

 

My experience, and opinion, which are also echoed in the wiki, lead me to believe that it's really playstyle based. You basically opt for Assault for NTD rushdown or Blast for strong ranged pressure with great step cancel options, imo. It's really important to keep track of how and when you're receiving damage when deciding on this, because for example, when I play Unicorn I usually end up going into NTD, then getting my first Burst in normal, Bursting, then NTD'ing again after it wears off. If you tend to hit your first burst when your NTD is up, perhaps Assault is better for you. Bursting at exactly 50% is pretty important if you're aiming to get 3 bursts, so one of the dangers of Assault is that obviously you want to combine it with NTD for best effect, but if you're not in NTD you're stuck wanting to burst but can't. If you take any hits before its up you can fuck yourself over a bit. On top of that, once in NTD and bursted, if you take any damage, you throw away your chance at getting 3 activates. As blast in Unicorn mode, it's extremely easy to safely aggress due to being able to easily stepcancel stuff into amekyan, etc etc. Imo both are justified, but you definitely have to be more technical to use Assault properly due to the risks and timing specificity.

 

@Z - burgerkong meant the buffs to melee in regards to improved reach / speed etc. I'm also kind of confused as to why you're talking abuto using Assault Burst to be offensive, but then the next sentence is about full bursting and "playing a more defensive role". 

 

Well, regardless, it's important to note to please phrase discussions of this nature in a subjective manner. You can talk concretely about what blast types are commonly chosen among top players for each suit. But if you aren't, please make sure you're being clear that you're stating your opinion. This is not directed at any one particular person, just in general. This is a good discussion, but please remember newer players are also reading this and may become mislead.

[KiraYamatoSF]

But the majority of the pro players pick Blast over Assualt since the burst is much longer than Assualt.

Unless they play real agressive MS like master/00-Q. I dont see why should we be using assualt over blast.

Melee oriented suits might use Assualt over blast due to the damage and melee buffs.

But other MS are still better with Blast. Rainbow Step is still one of the best thing out there, especially when you can literally use it to cancel anything that stops you from moving.

[burgerkong]

Unless something's changed here (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8127), then the def/off buffs aren't associated with shooting attacks or melee attacks specifically, but apply to both...

 

As Brett mentioned, I was mainly talking about the melee-specific buffs to improved melee reach and speed with regards to Cherudim.  Sorry for the confusion, should have specified.  

 

With regards to Epyon, if you're looking to use it to "open a brief window of opportunity", then Assault seems preferable here.  His melee reach and speed is improved, as is his BD speed, which helps him in close quarters.  Ideally you don't want to be getting hit in Burst anyways, so the 10% defense isn't too significant IMO.

 

I really do see both options being viable, but I disagree that Blast is the definitive burst for Epyon.  I really do prefer Assault on a double-front comp (3k + 2.5k), which I think Epyon would excel in (as much as Epyon can excel).  Blast's longer duration and BD efficiency would be the primary reason behind picking it, which I do agree are great, but most of the remaining bonuses (reload, step cancels) go to waste.

 

I'm merely pointing out I see A LOT of jp users in assault with unicorn...

 

TBH, I haven't seen an incredible amount of Unicorn gameplay, but oddly enough I've mainly seen Unicorn played in Blast.  That and Assault's mediocre effects in Unicorn Mode were the reasons I see Blast as the more stable and popular choice.

 

My experience, and opinion, which are also echoed in the wiki, lead me to believe that it's really playstyle based...

 

Thanks for both your in depth post Brett.  Sorry if I came off as stating my opinion as fact, I'm just trying to rationalize the Burst choice.  While some are definitely better on paper than others, a lot of it boils down to personal preference and playstyle.  I apologize if my opening post didn't emphasize it enough.

 

And yeah, Unicorn seems kinda superfluous thanks to NT-D's godlike BD melee, but Blast is the more flexible option since it's very effective in Unicorn Mode compared to NT-D.  It also lets him amekyan off of anything (turnaround Main, BZ, etc.), which is pretty nice.  Although less important, Unicorn's burst bonuses overall aren't too amazing anyway (Assault = +8% Damage, +10% Defense, Blast = +20% Defense).

 

But the majority of the pro players pick Blast over Assualt since the burst is much longer than Assualt.

Unless they play real agressive MS like master/00-Q. I dont see why should we be using assualt over blast.

Melee oriented suits might use Assualt over blast due to the damage and melee buffs.

But other MS are still better with Blast. Rainbow Step is still one of the best thing out there, especially when you can literally use it to cancel anything that stops you from moving.

 

Yeah, this is the most logical basis behind picking Blast, and I guess it explains the commonness of Blast that I've seen for the most part amongst most JP games I've seen.

 

Even Quanta usually picks Blast for longer trans-am time (and possibly faster reload on Zabanya assist and Shield bits), and I've seen some Masters pick Blast too (shoutouts to Ogu on Brett's stream, he's amazing at the game and pretty funny.  "I knew, I knew." Shame I haven't been able to catch these live to due university D:)

[Z-0010332536893]

@Z - burgerkong meant the buffs to melee in regards to improved reach / speed etc. I'm also kind of confused as to why you're talking abuto using Assault Burst to be offensive, but then the next sentence is about full bursting and "playing a more defensive role". 

The reach portion I misunderstood, but my mention of his defensive role was comparative. (Also, please bear in mind that I'm elaborating on the Epyon X Cherudim composition I suggested in my more brief statement. However, you can apply a similar logic in burst selection to other compositions of other units.) Compared to most other units, Cherudim's "fronting" would be more of a very careful close-range "zoning," for lack of a better word. Inherently, this is a greater risk for Cheru and, in my experience, is more likely to be caught in melee or a zunda than Epyon or other MS better-equipped for melee. Being caught in that and having a full EX bar would suggest a need to escape from the area, so the lesser penalty does help (Cherudim with a full EX bar almost always occurs in a scenario in which Cheru is overcost, and it's easy to imagine it being somewhat low on health).

[brett_]

Thanks for both your in depth post Brett.  Sorry if I came off as stating my opinion as fact, I'm just trying to rationalize the Burst choice.  While some are definitely better on paper than others, a lot of it boils down to personal preference and playstyle.  I apologize if my opening post didn't emphasize it enough.

 

You don't need to apologize, it wasn't really directed at you or anyone in particular. Just that this kind of subject leads to the thread walking a fine line between fact and opinion.

 

Edit: I'm also going to move this thread into the General section later because the individual suit sections are meant for just that.

[Tari]

@Z: While it's true that a 2.5k being overcosted in a 2.5/3k comp will usually manage to get a full burst after being hit once, this is only true if the 2.5k hasn't used a half burst, has done some damage (or blocked enough), and isn't being hit by a single move that will kill them instantly.

It's typically preferable to use a burst defensively when you're not already being hit. While Blast does still 'only' provide 80% boost at a full bar, it's more than enough to escape. The extended trans-am time on Cherudim and increased boost efficiency make it pretty pointless to chase him for the duration that his burst is active. There are a multitude of other benefits Cherudim gets from Blast, which burger mentions below.

In any case, it's not necessary to choose Assault burst just because you want to defensive burst with less penalty. Instead, bursts should be used in such a fashion that you avoid having to worry about the penalty in the first place.

Choosing a burst type for a suit should be more about how it benefits the suit or how it benefits the player specifically, rather than how good it is to use it when you get hit.

[burgerkong]

The reach portion I misunderstood, but my mention of his defensive role was comparative. (Also, please bear in mind that I'm elaborating on the Epyon X Cherudim composition I suggested in my more brief statement. However, you can apply a similar logic in burst selection to other compositions of other units.) Compared to most other units, Cherudim's "fronting" would be more of a very careful close-range "zoning," for lack of a better word. Inherently, this is a greater risk for Cheru and, in my experience, is more likely to be caught in melee or a zunda than Epyon or other MS better-equipped for melee. Being caught in that and having a full EX bar would suggest a need to escape from the area, so the lesser penalty does help (Cherudim with a full EX bar almost always occurs in a scenario in which Cheru is overcost, and it's easy to imagine it being somewhat low on health).

 

I'm confused, if his role is "defensive", then why is he "fronting"?  Cherudim is terrible as a front suit, and I doubt Assault Burst is gonna change that anytime soon.

 

While I agree it's more common to save up for a Full Burst in FB in a close game and using it to save yourself in a standard overcost situation, the only benefit Assault has is that you have 15% more boost when using it defensively.  Meanwhile, Blast has a host of benefits that allow him retreat better (BD efficiency, step cancelling projectiles for safer landings) that make you a lot harder to kill.

 

In a game where you are in an advantageous position and want to use your half-burst to press the advantage, Blast is undeniably better.  Step cancelling your projectiles, improved red lock range, faster reload, and better BD efficiency are all things that Cherudim would love, while the melee buffs and slightly faster BD speed are almost useless, since you'll ideally be far away from enemies anyway.

 

You don't need to apologize, it wasn't really directed at you or anyone in particular. Just that this kind of subject leads to the thread walking a fine line between fact and opinion.

 

Alright, just wanted to clear that up just in case.  Thanks

[KiraYamatoSF]

I'm confused, if his role is "defensive", then why is he "fronting"?  Cherudim is terrible as a front suit, and I doubt Assault Burst is gonna change that anytime soon.

 

While I agree it's more common to save up for a Full Burst in FB in a close game and using it to save yourself in a standard overcost situation, the only benefit Assault has is that you have 15% more boost when using it defensively.  Meanwhile, Blast has a host of benefits that allow him retreat better (BD efficiency, step cancelling projectiles for safer landings) that make you a lot harder to kill.

 

In a game where you are in an advantageous position and want to use your half-burst to press the advantage, Blast is undeniably better.  Step cancelling your projectiles, improved red lock range, faster reload, and better BD efficiency are all things that Cherudim would love, while the melee buffs and slightly faster BD speed are almost useless, since you'll ideally be far away from enemies anyway.

 

 

Alright, just wanted to clear that up just in case.  Thanks

This is more of an advance tactic thing.

Ammo isn't that important. Your health status and what are you going to do is more important.

For example, I myself will tell my partner that ima turn on my Ex BURST. So that my partner will help defend me while i am attacking one target with my burst.

Another example, 2500 + 3000 teams. Whenever i am low to around 300 I will tell my partner that i am going to cover he/she. So we could instantly switch from 3K front 2.5K back to the other way around. Once my partner is around 300 health, it will be my turn to get to the front.

And when my second 3K is out and my partner is still not dead yet, I will storm the front while my partner will wait till i get low. When i am low to around 400, my partner will come up to the frontline with me and we be doing the double front formation. That way, when my partner arrive in his 2nd MS he has around 120 health and i will be having around 200.

We will make sure that we are using every bit of our health to gain the most advatange.

(Copied from my another post)

Hope this answers your question.

As for what you said earlier.

Yes when you put it that way, it seems like you are trying to get more advantage.

But the problem is that cost over can kill you and make you lose the game quick.

If the opponent saw you using your burst that early. They could just kill you the instant you came down with 120 health.

That is why pros dont normally do that. It is still too risky.

[burgerkong]

(Copied from my another post)

Hope this answers your question.

As for what you said earlier.

Yes when you put it that way, it seems like you are trying to get more advantage.

But the problem is that cost over can kill you and make you lose the game quick.

If the opponent saw you using your burst that early. They could just kill you the instant you came down with 120 health.

That is why pros dont normally do that. It is still too risky.

 

Ah, I see the importance of role flexibility regarding health management, which is why I guess Cherudim has never been higher than mid-tier.  He's pretty bad in the front department.  And Epyon can't play back at all

 

I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of high level Cherudim play, so I can't really say I've seen this kind of diverse play (at least consciously).  Most of the games I've seen has Cherudim playing a solid back role, while his 3k partner just goes in :P

 

I agree that defensive Full Burst still is far from optimal, but I was mainly stating that it's definitely more viable in FB now, and can happen if you just don't find a good opportunity to burst on your first life.  That being said, it's hard not to argue Blast is better for Cherudim IMO

[KiraYamatoSF]

Ah, I see the importance of role flexibility regarding health management, which is why I guess Cherudim has never been higher than mid-tier.  He's pretty bad in the front department.  And Epyon can't play back at all

 

I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of high level Cherudim play, so I can't really say I've seen this kind of diverse play (at least consciously).  Most of the games I've seen has Cherudim playing a solid back role, while his 3k partner just goes in :P

 

I agree that defensive Full Burst still is far from optimal, but I was mainly stating that it's definitely more viable in FB now, and can happen if you just don't find a good opportunity to burst on your first life.  That being said, it's hard not to argue Blast is better for Cherudim IMO

 

Now that you understand. You learnt!