Aksys displaying Favortism toward certain characters?

[fishnet]

First instance:

 

 It's strange that low tier characters like Makoto and Bullet, who are closed-ranged and rushdown oriented haven't received the proper tools to play their way( once again, properly), but a character like Hazama is able to zone AND rushdown VERY effectively.

 

Does Hazama even have a drive meter? I mean I SEE it there, but has there EVER been a time where you can say "ok I got him to use both of his drive meters, now he's in trouble." Bullet has like one of the slowest normal overheads in the game, but Hazama's version is one of the fastest? How come Makoto barely has any +frames on her freakn' short attacks? Rachel has grounded drive recovery, but Hazama doesn't? 

 

Second instance:

 

Valkenhayn has like the most ridiculous 50/50's in the game. He can combo off of them and do them repeatedly without any real consequence Even if blocked. The wolf meter is kinda like Hazama's meter where it doesn't really seem like it has a legitimate cooldown period.

 

It's like some characters have braindead easy to take advantage of drives and others go through hell for very little reward.

 

Do you see any favoritism In the character designs(not just these, but any of the cast)?

[mAc Chaos]

Hazama was actually the first one I thought of when I saw the thread title. :V And there's Kokonoe.

Wasn't there something about Mori hoping Noel would always be bad so lots of people wouldn't play her?

[fishnet]

you most-likely already know that koko has gotten hit with the bat and Valk's wolf meter is a little slower(don't know if it helped or not), but Hazama never really changes. Another one with an extremely fast overhead(who shouldn't have it) is litchi. Like seriously what's up with these all-around characters?

[destruction_adv]

Aksys doesn't balance the game they localize it, it's Arc System Works that make the game (or I might be backwards cause I'm sleepy.)

[mAc Chaos]

you most-likely already know that koko has gotten hit with the bat and Valk's wolf meter is a little slower(don't know if it helped or not), but Hazama never really changes. Another one with an extremely fast overhead(who shouldn't have it) is litchi. Like seriously what's up with these all-around characters?

Yeah but she went from SSSS tier to like SS.

[fishnet]

it might just require some more experience against her to get her down to A class. lol

[Skyheartxia]

First instance:

 

 It's strange that low tier characters like Makoto and Bullet, who are closed-ranged and rushdown oriented haven't received the proper tools to play their way( once again, properly), but a character like Hazama is able to zone AND rushdown VERY effectively.

 

Does Hazama even have a drive meter? I mean I SEE it there, but has there EVER been a time where you can say "ok I got him to use both of his drive meters, now he's in trouble." Bullet has like one of the slowest normal overheads in the game, but Hazama's version is one of the fastest? How come Makoto barely has any +frames on her freakn' short attacks? Rachel has grounded drive recovery, but Hazama doesn't? 

 

Second instance:

 

Valkenhayn has like the most ridiculous 50/50's in the game. He can combo off of them and do them repeatedly without any real consequence Even if blocked. The wolf meter is kinda like Hazama's meter where it doesn't really seem like it has a legitimate cooldown period.

 

It's like some characters have braindead easy to take advantage of drives and others go through hell for very little reward.

 

Do you see any favoritism In the character designs(not just these, but any of the cast)?

 

i literally have no idea what this is attempting to accomplish/encourage in terms of discussion.

also i'll assume you meant Arcsys.

this is just a yes or no answer question

[Yohosie]

Bullet has one of the slowest normal overheads in the game at 24 frames, while Hazama has one of the fastest at 22 frames. This Is Bullshit

There is no "Favoritism", Arc System Works is just bad at balancing the game. Welcome to anime, pick a top tier, or pick a low tier and be good enough not to get hit.

[SoWL]

There is no favoritism, it's just that some character designs are inherently stronger than others. Let's say that there is a character whose main advantage is his mobility, not unlike the ones you see in many other fighting games. Now, he's obviously going to be stronger than the less mobile characters, unless the developers make him weaker in other aspects. Weakening his damage usually means that playing this character means flying around the opponent and delivering mosquito bites as they try to catch you, and that is neither satisfying nor fun for either of the two players. That means that such characters usually get weak defense instead - I mean, it's not unreasonable to have your local speedster be fragile. However, his mobility means that he rarely has to care about being hit, even if being hit means certain death for him 90% of the time. Sure, a player who knows this character well enough can outrun him and play to his own character's strengths (such as good defensive tools and health), but the less experienced players will have a very hard time doing so. That is especially true since playing a mobile character usually requires a slightly higher time investment (at the very least, you need good fundamentals to compensate for your poor defense), which means that such fights can get even more lopsided. And if the game has universal defensive options (such as bursts, alpha counters or pushblocking), they can be just enough to push this mobile character over the edge between "Can be played around" and "Has no weaknesses". Luckily, such defensive options depend on various limited resources in BlazBlue, which means that no one can use them for the whole match. And let's be honest, the game's roster isn't as imbalanced as in some kusoge, so there are still ways to fight Hazama or Litchi's antics.

 

Bullet has one of the slowest normal overheads in the game at 24 frames, while Hazama has one of the fastest at 22 frames. This Is Bullshit

Also this. I had my own share of frustrating Bullet matches, but I never blamed them on frame data.

[Skyheartxia]

 I had my own share of frustrating Bullet matches, but I never blamed them on frame data.

you're messing up man

gotta have the option select on match loss.

[BlackYakuzu94]

You could just..ya know....learn the matchup :V

 

If I can see Goro blow people with Makoto, then I'm less inclined to agree there is something inherently wrong with the character and more people just don't wanna put that work in and get intimidated when they see they Hazama get like 5k just by mashing the C button. 

 

 

Now granted, Hazama and Valkenhayn are very...difficult characters to fight, so I can see where the idea that they're overpowered comes from.

[susano]

You could just..ya know....learn the matchup :V

 

If I can see Goro blow people with Makoto, then I'm less inclined to agree there is something inherently wrong with the character and more people just don't wanna put that work in and get intimidated when they see they Hazama get like 5k just by mashing the C button. 

 

 

Now granted, Hazama and Valkenhayn are very...difficult characters to fight, so I can see where the idea that they're overpowered comes from.

 

But Goro is really good. I'm still amazed he makes Makoto work despite her imperfections.

 

Sure, you can learn the matchups but that doesn't mean you can't be frustrated with some things.

[redsilversnake]

Hazama was actually the first one I thought of when I saw the thread title. :V And there's Kokonoe.

Wasn't there something about Mori hoping Noel would always be bad so lots of people wouldn't play her?

That's just part of a running joke about Noel being Mori's waifu.

 

You could just..ya know....learn the matchup :V

 

If I can see Goro blow people with Makoto, then I'm less inclined to agree there is something inherently wrong with the character and more people just don't wanna put that work in and get intimidated when they see they Hazama get like 5k just by mashing the C button. 

 

 

Now granted, Hazama and Valkenhayn are very...difficult characters to fight, so I can see where the idea that they're overpowered comes from.

As susano kind of said, there's a difference between a player being good enough to work around their character's weaknesses and a character not being weak. Just because Goro makes Makoto look strong doesn't mean she actually is, he's just way better than anyone here.

 

Anyway, like yohosie said, ArcSys is just terrible at balance. If there is favoritism, it's a minor issue compared to that.

[Daramue]

Honestly, I'm not sure about ArcSys's previous track-record on balance but with the exception of CT (And maybe CS1, ok, that's already half the series) I feel that there are no matchups outside of some Tager matchups that feel unwinnable or helpless. I put a lot more conditions on that previous statement than I had expected, but I still feel that overall balance is fairly well done, although I feel the balance was best in Extend.  Sure, there are a lot of conditions to take into consideration and we could theory-fight one character against another all day, but given the right matchup experience and knowledge, I don't feel there's a huge wall against even a low-tier character like Makoto defeating a great one like Hazama or Valk. This is assuming both players are roughly the same skill level, of course.

 

Given the variety of playstyles present in the characters, I actually think this is quite impressive. It'd be easy to balance a fighting game with old-mortal kombat as a reference, where everyone is pretty much the same barring certain specials. 

[BlackYakuzu94]

As susano kind of said, there's a difference between a player being good enough to work around their character's weaknesses and a character not being weak. Just because Goro makes Makoto look strong doesn't mean she actually is, he's just way better than anyone here.

 

 

But Goro is really good. I'm still amazed he makes Makoto work despite her imperfections.

 

Sure, you can learn the matchups but that doesn't mean you can't be frustrated with some things.

 

 

You guys just kind of stated my point; if someone else can work with a character despite their shortcomings, then I'm more inclined that some people just get frustrated and give up too easily and call their character trash rather than just work with what they got and try to make the best of it.

 

Now granted, Arcsys' balance also plays a role here....seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give Hazama's chains a million years of stun despite SMP.

[susano]

You guys just kind of stated my point; if someone else can work with a character despite their shortcomings, then I'm more inclined that some people just get frustrated and give up too easily and call their character trash rather than just work with what they got and try to make the best of it.

 

Now granted, Arcsys' balance also plays a role here....seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give Hazama's chains a million years of stun despite SMP.

 

Yeah, you work with what you have but it pisses me off when characters like Bullet, Makoto and Izayoi could use some good buffs and yet you have Hazama and Brokonoe running around causing havok. I don't even play these characters and I feel bad for people who have to go through hell and back to earn their wins. Reminds me of how Nu was reduced to Lambda in CS1 and literally dropped near bottom tier.

 

Stupid Crescent Saber loops...-grumble, grumble-

[BlackYakuzu94]

Yeah, you work with what you have but it pisses me off when characters like Bullet, Makoto and Izayoi could use some good buffs and yet you have Hazama and Brokonoe running around causing havok. I don't even play these characters and I feel bad for people who have to go through hell and back to earn their wins. Reminds me of how Nu was reduced to Lambda in CS1 and literally dropped near bottom tier.

 

Stupid Crescent Saber loops...-grumble, grumble-

 

Yea, I can understand that feeling, but it always feels good when you win with an objectively "bad" character.

[king of heart]

I don't usually visit this forum because i don't play BB competitively anymore. i just play it casually and socially.
but i think this thread is kinda interesting.
 

 

Anyway, like yohosie said, ArcSys is just terrible at balance. If there is favoritism, it's a minor issue compared to that.

Actually it's the BlazBlue Team that is just terrible at balance not the whole ArcSys. 

GGAC+R is almost perfect.

GGXrd is still in it's first balance version and i saw FAB ocv'ing people and wining Mikado's tournament  with Potemkin who's the worst character in the game.

[susano]

Yea, I can understand that feeling, but it always feels good when you win with an objectively "bad" character.

 

Yep.

[fishnet]

very good.

 

Still, a character like Hazama is a in-and-out zoner. WHY are his damage options, upclose specials and normals better than most rushdown characters? Him and Valkenhayn get to have their cake and eat it too.

 

IF they had to actually WORK for their drive meters(Hakumen, Tsubaki, Izayoi, Amane or Arakune) OR the cooldown periods were more noticeable(Rachel, Tager, Relius or Carl), they would be far more balanced.

[Henaki]

Considering how ArcSys have treated Tager: yes. They absolutely want some archtypes to be better than others.

 

Generally, making the harder, more precise characters to play better means that at all levels of play, the game doesn't end up frustrating. At low levels, Tager is just gonna trash people, so they take the easy way out and made him worse than all other characters for most of the series to minimize this frustration. Characters like Hazama and Valkenhyne are harder to get a lot out of at low levels, so in terms of power to skill, a person, a poor player is not going to get a lot out of these characters, so them being better makes up the difference at all levels of play until the highest (where being more skilled means you edge out more advantages). Easier characters hit their skillcap faster (like Tager), so you essentially get more reward for less work due to the nature of their design (get in and guess, can take a lot of risks).

 

Some of it might be bias, some of it might be edging out more lack of frustration at lower levels, some of it might be incompetence. If whoever is in charge of BlazBlue was good at design, they would be able to not have to do this, but eh. I mean, they clearly weren't that competent beacuse they made BB:CS lol.

[Airk]

There is no favoritism, it's just that some character designs are inherently stronger than others. Let's say that there is a character whose main advantage is his mobility, not unlike the ones you see in many other fighting games. Now, he's obviously going to be stronger than the less mobile characters, unless the developers make him weaker in other aspects. Weakening his damage usually means that playing this character means flying around the opponent and delivering mosquito bites as they try to catch you, and that is neither satisfying nor fun for either of the two players. That means that such characters usually get weak defense instead - I mean, it's not unreasonable to have your local speedster be fragile. However, his mobility means that he rarely has to care about being hit, even if being hit means certain death for him 90% of the time. Sure, a player who knows this character well enough can outrun him and play to his own character's strengths (such as good defensive tools and health), but the less experienced players will have a very hard time doing so. That is especially true since playing a mobile character usually requires a slightly higher time investment (at the very least, you need good fundamentals to compensate for your poor defense), which means that such fights can get even more lopsided. And if the game has universal defensive options (such as bursts, alpha counters or pushblocking), they can be just enough to push this mobile character over the edge between "Can be played around" and "Has no weaknesses". Luckily, such defensive options depend on various limited resources in BlazBlue, which means that no one can use them for the whole match. And let's be honest, the game's roster isn't as imbalanced as in some kusoge, so there are still ways to fight Hazama or Litchi's antics.

 

Also this. I had my own share of frustrating Bullet matches, but I never blamed them on frame data.

 

 

This is basically a load of nonsense.  What you have said boils down to "Characters with high mobility are strong because Arc Sys doesn't give them weaknesses" which does absolutely nothing to support your assertion that, in fact, there's something "magical" about their design that makes them good. 

 

The simple version is this:  Some characters in BB have the appropriate tools to support their playstyle.  Some characters in BB have tools that there is no reason they should have according to their "design" (Hazama having a fast overhead with bonus proration, or a wide variety of plus-on-block tools).  And some characters inexplicably are not given tools that support their playstyle ("I know! Let's make a rushdown character...who has to pause in her rushdown build up a special gauge... that doesn't help her extend pressure... and she can't do competitive damage unless she has special gauge."  Congrats on taking a Drive and basically making it into a weakness.). 

 

The whole "But if you nerf their damage, it would be boring, so you have to nerf their defense, and people can play around that" argument doesn't hold water, because there are obviously MANY ways you can nerf a character that have nothing to do with their damage or their defense.  How fast their normals are (Compare Hazama's normals to Tsubaki's. One of these characters is all about rushdown pressure, and it's not the one with rushdown normals?)  How many ways they have to extend their pressure. (Hazama has lots of plus options. Makoto? Not so much)  How good their oki is (Give Hazama bad knockdown setups would be a huge nerf that has nothing to do with his 'design'.)  How fast they build meter.   How "Freely" they are able to use their drive (Rachel would be insanely good if her wind were a 'nigh infinite' resource the way wolf meter is... but instead she's a balanced character.).  None of those, I repeat NONE of those have anything to do with a character's innate "design" in the sense of, say "Hazama is a mobile character who can switch between zoning and pressure, and gets weak damage unless he's spending meter."  (Of course, they actively FAILED on the second part of that design in CP, where Hazama's meterless damage was only barely on the low end.)

 

There's no such thing as a design that is so "good" that it cannot be bad, nor a design that cannot be balanced, there are only designs that have the right tools, and designs that have the wrong tools (either too good, or too bad.).

[SoWL]

I don't usually visit this forum because i don't play BB competitively anymore. i just play it casually and socially.

but i think this thread is kinda interesting.

 

Actually it's the BlazBlue Team that is just terrible at balance not the whole ArcSys. 

GGAC+R is almost perfect.

GGXrd is still in it's first balance version and i saw FAB ocv'ing people and wining Mikado's tournament  with Potemkin who's the worst character in the game.

Meanwhile, Goro is also taking names with the worst character in the game, so I'm not sure how Xrd is better than BB here.

 

very good.

 

Still, a character like Hazama is a in-and-out zoner. WHY are his damage options, upclose specials and normals better than most rushdown characters? Him and Valkenhayn get to have their cake and eat it too.

 

IF they had to actually WORK for their drive meters(Hakumen, Tsubaki, Izayoi, Amane or Arakune) OR the cooldown periods were more noticeable(Rachel, Tager, Relius or Carl), they would be far more balanced.

Because, believe it or not, Hazama has some problems getting in on people. His forward dash has fixed distance, his Drive can be blocked and punished (on IB), and his normals have poor range. It only makes sense for him to get some reward if he does manage to get in (and it usually requires him to have some meter, too). Valkenhayn, meanwhile, requires smart switching between his slow, but damaging human mode and his quick, but fragile wolf mode. He gets twice as many strengths as other characters, but also twice as many weaknesses, and he has to know his priorities about them in each specific case. And of course, there is also the wolf gauge, which got got nerfed in 1.10, so you shouldn't expect as many free switches over the course of the match.

[fishnet]

BBCP 1.1 Hazama combos (youtube on jourdal2012 channel) For some reason I can't post it here...

 

Pay attention to Hazama's drive meter.

 

 

[Justice7541]

I'nm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet. Might as well get in on it while it's still up.

Hazama's 6A is a pretty good overhead but you need meter to take it into anything, it does relatively low damage considering (6A > Jayoku is worth like 4.5k IIRC), and it's negative on block (and on hit if you don't Jayoku, I think). I don't know why you're acting surprised that MAYBE SOMEONE OUT THERE has a overhead that is 2 frames faster than Bullet's. Hazama has a lot of mixups. That's kinda... just how he is? Might as well complain about how Ragna has the best 5B and why doesn't everyone has a 5B as long as his etc.

Also, he has two drive followups and he needs to hit you with the chain to get more. It's not like he can just jump around mashing D and zoom around the screen like he's Vegeta. Same goes with Valk and his wolf gauge, just because they have options to maintain the gauge effectively doesn't make it free.

If your general complaint is "why does this character have specific tools that are better than mine" then I dunno what to tell you. If it's "why do top tiers exist" that's just because Arcsys likes to mess with characters a lot to keep things fresh. I prefer it to Capcom's "extend one move's hitbox and add one frame of recovery and call it a day" approach.