Neutral

[DJ_Blactricity]

Can someone do an in-depth explanation on neutral? I've been playing this game for years, and still have problems with it.

[Airk]

You'd have  better luck asking in a specific character forum, because what you want to do at neutral with Jin (space, get into that 5C/5D/2D sort of range, annoy your opponent, close more if desired) is completely different from what you want to do as Valk (fly around, get right up close, do mixup, win.)

[DJ_Blactricity]

I'm not asking what to do at neutral. I understand what the majority of characters want to do at neutral. I guess the better question to ask would be what influences the decisions you make in neutral besides your characters gameplan in the heat of a match?

[BlackYakuzu94]

What your opponent does or doesn't do.

[D.R.F.]

Everything you do will depend on what character you're using, your opponents character, and your understanding of both you and their tendencies, whether you know it well or not. Every character in neutral is usually trying to win, their different tools will change the way they control their point of attack or otherwise. This is really something that needs to be taken to a specific character thread

[mAc Chaos]

He's asking for a breakdown of the elements that make up neutral and what kind of things you should consider.

Like the Mixup Primer thread in the Beginner Mode forum.

[DJ_Blactricity]

He's asking for a breakdown of the elements that make up neutral and what kind of things you should consider.

Like the Mixup Primer thread in the Beginner Mode forum.

Yes that's exactly what I want

[mAceOfHearts]

Not sure if this is what you want, but I'll try to explain.

 

1: What normals/specials do I have at my disposal?

 

In neutral, you're, obviously, trying to hit your opponent without being hit yourself. Therefore, you want to make sure you're familiar with your attacks. Figure out what attack to use in whatever situation you're in. (Haku might want to use j.C in an air-to-air situation, but j.2C in an air-to-ground situation)

 

2: What normals/specials does my opponent have at his/her disposal?

 

Knowing where your opponent can hit you from is just as important as knowing where you can hit them from. There's a big difference between approaching Nu-13 and approaching Ragna. Find out what works against what characters. (Bang, for example, doesn't have much in the way of anti-airs, baring his Drive)

 

3: Spacing

 

Generally speaking, you're going to need to get in close if you want to deal high damage (Unless you're playing a zoner). Azrael's damage output isn't that great at max 5C range (Unless you get a counter hit), but it's pretty damn good at 5B range. It's important to position yourself so that you can hit your opponent in a way that will lead to more damage. Sure, you can poke them to death with moves like Haku's 4C or Jin's Ice Swords, but that's not gonna get you very far.

 

I hope that helped somewhat. These are just the things I try to focus on when I play.

[DJ_Blactricity]

I understand neutral in its simplest form. I am trying to improve my neutral. I struggle against players who play neutral at a high-level where the pace and decision-making happens much quicker. That's why I want an in-depth explanation, or to at least gain insight on the way top players think during neutral

[Airk]

There's no flowchart or quick and easy breakdown for what you want.

 

What I suggest you do is watch some videos (your own replays, perhaps) and every time the "opponent" does something, ask yourself "Why did they do that there?"

[Fujiwara]

It's kinda hard to give you want you want due to the fact that neutral is ever changing. It isn't something with a flowchart or branches like mix-up is. Neutral is a huge variable that revolves around, you, your character and your opponent and their own character along with both of your tendencies and reactions. Since it isn't something set in stone (mix up isn't either, but there's something as simple as 'If your opponent is too respectful, go for throws/high/lows) it's hard to teach or breakdown because we can't *see* what's happening in your neutral.

If we could see some of your replays, we could give you tips. We could tell you what the other guy is doing. But neutral is normally one of the harder things to master in fighting games because it's so freeform. Where one Hazama could decide to space you with chains repeatedly from 3/4th of the screen, another could easily decides to simply rush you down with staggers, stance mix-ups and cross-ups.

As a Platinum player, my neutral involves trying to get my opponent to make any single mistakes I can take advantage of. That's exactly what you're looking for most of the time in neutral. For someone to overextend themselves or do something punishable in any way and converting off of it to put yourself into advantage.

[Akhlore]

This was an attempt in explaining exactly what you want by Klaige for GGAC+R, similar concepts apply, I think you might be able to take away a few things from these videos at least I did. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ_I8BVcIjg

 

Edit: Also that series is quite under-appreciated, it's not the highest quality but still there are very few resources for Arc.Sys. games so supporting these efforts by watching is also not the worst idea either :P

[Davidov07]

you play with valkenhayn right? maybe there's the problem, valk is hard to play in neutral,specially if you have bad valk habits... like me lol

[TD]

neutral in general is a rather abstract concept riddled with uncertainty. I highly doubt the answer you are looking for woul be by asking this specific question.

 

The goal in neutral is to get into a favorable position. In games such as tug-o-war or arm wrestling, both parties would start out on even footing and each foe would use tactics besides the most basic (which would be strength, in these two cases) to get the upper hand. perhaps one would pretend he is weak, lulling the foe into a sense of security. perhaps he will proceed to distract the foe in other ways. now any sort of thing like this in games such as those would be considered foul play. But in fighting games, psycology is a major part in how one would go about doing pretty much anything. After al you are playing someone who is likely doing just as much thinking on how to get the upper hand as you are.

 

I would say your own experience on your character, the foe's character, how others have played both characters, and how you think your foe will act, should be the main branches of decision making if both players have no advantage. Confidence is also a big thing because yu need to trust your decision in order to get that tunnel vision going to help you confirm multiple-possibility scenarios. On top of all this, constantly remaining safe is one mantra I love to go by. High reward, low risk moves tend to be the best in neutral, of course factoring things like character specifics and probability, but if you just do not know what to do next, sometimes dipping a toe in the water will help you see how the foe will react.

 

You should definitely always be trying to get a reaction out of the opponent, by the way. Make your own informaton by closely observing the foe at all times and during lulls in action, analyze based on past scenarios and current meters (health, heat, barrier, wins, etc) how the foe should be feeling at that very moment. Ever wonder how I am able to bait oh so may bursts? I use this.

 

There is way too much to explain on the concept that I bet even some pro's do not get the entire idea. In a nutshell, neutral is basicaly sizing up your opponent and using both their strategies and your own against them. In order for one to do this they would definitely need to study their matchups first and foremost.

 

pardon my grammar and punctuation, im not spellchecking this shit

[Stellarcircle5]

If you play Valk, the best description I can give is that his neutral is very matchup dependent. Now don't go quoting me on any of this, because neutral is still the weakest part of my gameplan but I can still offer some advice.

One thing you need to realize is that despite the fact that you are playing a super rushdown heavy character, it's not always a good idea to go in. Because wolf can't block, players will be more inclined to just throw stuff at you (Ragna's Hells Fang, Azrael's Gustaff Buster, Terumi's 6C etc...) meaning that if you can't effectively approach due to them exploiting your inability to defend, you want to make them over extend themselves and make them eat shit for it. Did Azreal whiff a fullscreen Blackhawk Stinger in an attempt to tag you out of wolf? Use D command dash to get in there, score a 5C counter hit, carry him to the corner, and start your vortex.

Oftentimes characters with strong normals and defensive options are the ones you want to play this game against.

On the flip side, there are matchups like Arakune, Rachel and Nu where you just need to play the opposite. Find the opening in their zoning, get in, and kill them for it. These matchups are typically much more straightforward than the type I discussed above.

TD covered neutral better in general, so take a look at his post of that's what you wanted. I just thought I'd give some specifics.

Valkenhayn in 1.1 is more reliant on strong neutral than he has ever been, so start practicing, and good luck!

[DJ_Blactricity]

neutral in general is a rather abstract concept riddled with uncertainty. I highly doubt the answer you are looking for woul be by asking this specific question.

 

The goal in neutral is to get into a favorable position. In games such as tug-o-war or arm wrestling, both parties would start out on even footing and each foe would use tactics besides the most basic (which would be strength, in these two cases) to get the upper hand. perhaps one would pretend he is weak, lulling the foe into a sense of security. perhaps he will proceed to distract the foe in other ways. now any sort of thing like this in games such as those would be considered foul play. But in fighting games, psycology is a major part in how one would go about doing pretty much anything. After al you are playing someone who is likely doing just as much thinking on how to get the upper hand as you are.

 

I would say your own experience on your character, the foe's character, how others have played both characters, and how you think your foe will act, should be the main branches of decision making if both players have no advantage. Confidence is also a big thing because yu need to trust your decision in order to get that tunnel vision going to help you confirm multiple-possibility scenarios. On top of all this, constantly remaining safe is one mantra I love to go by. High reward, low risk moves tend to be the best in neutral, of course factoring things like character specifics and probability, but if you just do not know what to do next, sometimes dipping a toe in the water will help you see how the foe will react.

 

You should definitely always be trying to get a reaction out of the opponent, by the way. Make your own informaton by closely observing the foe at all times and during lulls in action, analyze based on past scenarios and current meters (health, heat, barrier, wins, etc) how the foe should be feeling at that very moment. Ever wonder how I am able to bait oh so may bursts? I use this.

 

There is way too much to explain on the concept that I bet even some pro's do not get the entire idea. In a nutshell, neutral is basicaly sizing up your opponent and using both their strategies and your own against them. In order for one to do this they would definitely need to study their matchups first and foremost.

 

pardon my grammar and punctuation, im not spellchecking this shit

This is the beginnings of what I'm looking for. I am trying to understand this subtle battle of tactics and strategy that many don't see. Do an article on neutral. You definitely have the answer I'm looking for. I am specifically trying to understand how I can use movement and spacing in this subtle battle.

[floatwater]

1. Space Control

2. Movement


This is pretty much the SIMPLEST thing you can get. Honestly this is the only thing(?) that should be a focus because your characters normals are basically saying "This is my space son chickity check yaself before you wreck yaself" It's also why Hazama is fucking good at it because of chains. 

Again this is just the basics. Since this is what you want? not too sure. But it helps boil down on what you should be doing and what influences the decision everyone makes when they play. 

Shit

[mAc Chaos]

Every character has certain ranges where they're best. You want to find that sweet spot and stay in it. Think of it as a radius around your character; you should be controlling that space, and not let the opponent get into it for free. This is dependent on the matchup too.

[DJ_Blactricity]

1. Space Control

2. Movement

This is pretty much the SIMPLEST thing you can get. Honestly this is the only thing(?) that should be a focus because your characters normals are basically saying "This is my space son chickity check yaself before you wreck yaself" It's also why Hazama is fucking good at it because of chains. 

Again this is just the basics. Since this is what you want? not too sure. But it helps boil down on what you should be doing and what influences the decision everyone makes when they play. 

Shit

I've played this game CT. I can play neutral at a basic level, but it's purely off the instincts I developed from thousands of matches. My goal in this thread was to learn the thought process of players who play neutral at a high-level.Things like: What they are looking for when watching their opponent? What they do to get reactions out of the opponent? The keys to moving well while avoiding bad situations, and maintaining that spacing mac is talking about.

[Airk]

Answers:

Depends

Depends

Depends

 

Any questions? :P

 

These are not simple questions are you asking.  You could pick two frames of any video of any match anywhere, and get different answers.

[mAc Chaos]

A lot of it just comes down to play experience. But you can test out different situations in training mode so you know what your options are in any given situation.

 

For instance, Tager 5B can beat Ragna 5B if you time it right. If you know that then you have a tool to deal with Ragna 5B.

[DJ_Blactricity]

I

 

Answers:

Depends

Depends

Depends

 

Any questions? :P

 

These are not simple questions are you asking.  You could pick two frames of any video of any match anywhere, and get different answers.

The question was intended to be difficult. I want a well-thought out answer. I don't care about the answers being different. I would actually prefer to have multiple answers. No two players play the same so they should approach neutral differently, but they should share similarities. You have the player who plays safe, avoids risky situations, and likes to control the pace of the match. Another player may be a risk-taker, but they are great at reading the opponent. You even have the player who doesn't have a set play-style, and bases it solely off how their opponent plays.  I expect all of these players to have different thought processes during neutral, but they should all share some general similarities. At the higher-levels, the obvious similarities will be fundamentally sound, know the strengths and weaknesses of every character, and know the ins and outs of the game. They also tend to know the answer to a vast amount of situations, how to avoid them, and how to adapt to new ones. I'm interested in finding the similarities in the way they think during neutral since it may help me develop an active thought-process.

[Airk]

The problem is not that the question is "difficult". The problem is that the answer is constantly changing, sometimes as often as every frame.  This is what you don't seem to be grasping.

 

No one can tell you how to play "at neutral" because neutral is an endless stream of constantly changing situations, and unless you point to a specific instant in time and ask you "So what is this player thinking RIGHT HERE" then there's no answer.  You're not even trying to narrow down the situation, which is why you're getting all these vague and unsatisfactory "Well, you want to do stuff that controls space!" kind of answers - because those answers are all there is without more details.  What's more, even in pretty simple situations, there's a whole mess of options.  The ultimate example of a "controlled" neutral situation is round start - but even in this pretty basic situation, even if you narrow it down to two characters facing off, there are a dozen or more possible combinations of actions on each side, each of which has its plusses and minuses.  I've seen a Ragna player start the round with D inferno divider, and seen it hit, because NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION D INFERNO DIVIDER at round start.  So Ragna is using that to control specific space at a specific time on the expectation that his opponent will be in that space and vulnerable at that time.   Do you expect people to list every possible action in every possible neutral situation for every possible character and explain the pros and cons of each, or what?

[Fujiwara]

That's not what he's asking for, I think. I'm pretty sure he's looking for various definitions of neutral from various players to see how they think and approach neutral in general.

I don't think he's asking for rock,paper, scissors. He just wants to know the individual definition of how we all approach neutral.

Be it space control, doing random things, or reacting and setting up situations. He seems to want mindsets from individuals, not a drawn out flow chart.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sadeyo]

Neutral to me is getting within that one specific range where your character shines at and thoroughly maintaining that position as you open up your opponent with a mix-up. At times your neutral position can feel penetrated or at risk if you do something outside your comfort zone but that's just normally people going for rewards for their gamble attempt. When your own style can not make up for range because you're already conditioned you'll attempt to return the favor by micro-dashing or testing the waters with minor pokes until you're comfortable again.

 

Think of it like this, have you not jump cancelled one of your moves to see what your opponent may do or speculated how consistent their instant blocking is? Have you not risked it all knowing you're holding onto 50 heat and you throw out that predictable unsafe attack to rapid it? Is your opponent thinking just as far as you or further? I agree neutral changes every second and it's really character specific but to turn this in your favor is to take the lead yourself instead of waiting. If you feel that moment of being threatened though they're defending treat that moment as slowing down to see if that intuition was correct, this is how most players get that TRM set-up or simple bait. I play Ragna and Bullet and always fight to get to that neutral position as soon as I can, they both shine in that one spot for their tools at their disposal and can clearly cover it well.

 

No matter the oki set-up after one combo have you not respected your opponent once to see if they roll, emergency tech, defend, dp, or super? These are all factors you consider into the formula and how well you respect them in the first few seconds of the match. There's players out there with no rank and less color then others but tend to play at a level that's quite intimidating for those who judge their opponent as a 16 dan or red and pink tag. Though you'll understand how smart your opponent really is after the first few seconds of the match. Take a lost and come back for more and don't repeat the same mistake, we learn and continue to improve which allows us to condition lower level opponents and learn our own favorable position.