Double Butterfly

[Shining Aquas]

I think it has the ability to be useful on other characters, but the situations in which that's allowable are slim to none. Like after the first butterfly hit, Ky throws a Stun Edge, Venom does 5S, Johnny tries 5S (might hit both guys at same time), or if May attempts a forward dolphin. But, yeah, it's only really good on the Pot.

[Klaige]

I say again, it's not useful (i.e. reliable enough to give up okizeme) on anyone but potemkin. Even on potemkin, you are adding flash to something un-necessary. A single butterfly will get the job done every single time if you understand the concept and use it to your full advantage. Double butterfly is asking for an execution fuckup or a flash in the pan excitement during casual. Don't get me wrong, if you can do it, do it confidently in a tourney match against someone who isn't a scrub, and make them cower for it, then by all means, wreck their shit. But i've got a lot on the line that says anyone here CAN'T.

[Shining Aquas]

i.e. reliable enough to give up okizeme...

...to give up okizeme...

...give up okizeme...

This is where I'm getting somewhat lost on the issue. In what way are you "giving up" your okizeme. As far as I can tell, it's simply another of many potential mix-ups that Anji has off of the butterfly, and since all the conditions are generally the same afterwards it's not like you are "giving up" anything. If they backdash after the first butterfly, the second will miss but at least that result was constant since they would've backdashed on 1 butterfly anyway (unless your mix-up option was a running Fuujin, in which case god help you). Same result if they try jumping into the butterfly to negate the mix-up (unless the second butterfly happens to hit them in the air, in which case you get benefits). Not to mention most interrupting hits thrown in between 1st butterfly and mix-up will generally collide with 2nd butterfly instead of you, which is a great thing.

Overall, there are plenty of better mix-up options than a second butterfly (especially considering the consistency in which you will pull it off generally), but I don't think there's a whole lot of negatives with it unless your opponent absolutely knows you are throwing a 2nd.

[Klaige]

What im saying is that unless your execution is god fucking like, you run the risk of fucking up the double butterfly and thus wasting your okizeme. It's never a waste to do a single butterfly okizeme mixup, you always have some kind of option, even if it is limited in certain matchups (jam, sol, etc). If you go for double butterfly and miss (a very very real concern against anyone who isn't potemkin because of hitbox sizes and varying frames on when the butterfly transforms) you just gave up what is arguably anji's biggest strength. If you have the execution of a machine and aren't going to miss, hell yes, do double butterflys until they are blue in the face, im just saying that i will put money on the line that not a single person here can do it consistently against anyone but potemkin in a tourney setting, by all means prove me wrong.

[Teyah]

Negative edge on second butterfly via 236[6]]P[ or 236[6]]P~D[ solves the problem of wasting your okizeme, as it lets you continue to run in if you fail the input.

[Klaige]

Negative edge on second butterfly via 236[6]]P[ or 236[6]]P~D[ solves the problem of wasting your okizeme, as it lets you continue to run in if you fail the input.

To an extent, you still have to be able to react quickly if you realize the negative edge failed. If you are expecting the next butterfly to come out and then suddenly realize the negative edge didn't work, you don't have to worry about wiffing a move, but you will have likely already wasted the precious frames that allow your opponent to escape the oki.

[Teyah]

You don't need to react, as you just time your oki as if you aren't expecting a double butterfly. If the second butterfly comes out then you'll know, and can adjust accordingly. If it doesn't come out, you're still running in with the same timing as usual (the [6] is there for this reason!)

[Klaige]

You don't need to react, as you just time your oki as if you aren't expecting a double butterfly. If the second butterfly comes out then you'll know, and can adjust accordingly. If it doesn't come out, you're still running in with the same timing as usual (the [6] is there for this reason!)

You've then committed yourself to the standard run up okizeme, which granted offers lots of option, but that motion also takes away your option to either IAD (youll be too far forward by the time you react and just IAd over their head), or use a tight pressure string such as butterfly (6s).

If you are doing a properly spaced oki, you will be able to start your dash before the first hit and transformation of the butterfly, it's not by much but it's a few frames and with butterfly having increased recovery you better be on top of your string. If you are going for the double butterfly the natural motion of buffering the negative edge and attempting to buffer the dash will delay you by a frame or two, and that might be all it takes to give someone an escape option.

In the end it's over complicating something with a more difficult motion, and difficult execution timing for a technique that isn't really any better than just doing standard butterfly oki. It looks flashy, it can make potemkin sweat because of his massive hitbox, but you really aren't getting a real reward for all your extra effort. Butterfly doesn't jack guard gauge anymore, you really only gain some style points, and a little bit of panic from your opponent if you pull it off.

[TheSlyMoogle]

For the most part what Klaige forgot to mention is that butterfly really isn't about the mixup you get from it anymore. It's mostly about baiting the character to escape it. Pretty much every character in the game has a very good way to escape your butterfly and in the American scene especially no one wants to guard a mixup. So they try to escape and until you punish this escape enough they're not going to sit there and let you butterfly them. For the most part when I was doing double butterfly consistently my crew eventually learned to just IB butterfly a, and then backdash or whatever they want to completely avoid butterfly b. Anji is in too much recovery to really do much to punish this as original butterfly gives him no frame advantage and if they see the second butterfly they have plenty of time to react to that an GTFO. Leaving you without an option. Although a good pot player should IB the first butterfly and flick the hits of it's 2nd form causing your other butterfly to mean shit. That's just how it mostly goes down with the Pot player I play. Honestly your best bet is to use single butterfly all day and go from there. I approve of Flashy but save it for your combos.

[Klaige]

For the most part what Klaige forgot to mention is that butterfly really isn't about the mixup you get from it anymore. It's mostly about baiting the character to escape it.

This is a very good point, it's a different type of mixup, you force a guess and attempt to punish for that guess. The mixup is more of a 2nd generation style now, if someone wants to ib and backdash, you can usually slow that down with immediate HS fuujin after butterfly. When that option becomes less desireable, your opponent may try something else, and open up a different option to punish or mix up.

[Teyah]

You've then committed yourself to the standard run up okizeme, which granted offers lots of option, but that motion also takes away your option to either IAD (youll be too far forward by the time you react and just IAd over their head), or use a tight pressure string such as butterfly (6s).

If you are doing a properly spaced oki, you will be able to start your dash before the first hit and transformation of the butterfly, it's not by much but it's a few frames and with butterfly having increased recovery you better be on top of your string. If you are going for the double butterfly the natural motion of buffering the negative edge and attempting to buffer the dash will delay you by a frame or two, and that might be all it takes to give someone an escape option.

In the end it's over complicating something with a more difficult motion, and difficult execution timing for a technique that isn't really any better than just doing standard butterfly oki. It looks flashy, it can make potemkin sweat because of his massive hitbox, but you really aren't getting a real reward for all your extra effort. Butterfly doesn't jack guard gauge anymore, you really only gain some style points, and a little bit of panic from your opponent if you pull it off.

Indeed, you are limited to an immediate run, though you could do a 6S after the timing has passed for the double butterfly, though this is a few frames slower than normal. Still, running in is the most favourable thing to do after blocked butterfly, so you don't give up a lot here.

As for your second point, I'm not sure that you understand the buffering of the dash here. You still are able to dash on the first possible frame, since the 236 motion is done during your recovery from the first butterfly, with the final [6] done immediately once you're able to act. So there are no "lost frames" here at all, and the second butterfly will still come out due to GG's rather lenient input buffer. There is no delay in frames in using this method, it's exactly the same timing as usual.

The viability of double butterfly is a different topic together, one on which I would have to agree that it's mostly for flash and very limited in practicality.

[sobe]

can red butterflies be thrown into the mix?

shitsu > red shitsu > unblockable?

red shitsu > red shitsu > raep?

[Dream Maker]

First one is definitely possible. For double red shitsu I'm not sure, I think that red shitsu has a little more recovery than normal one so It might make the thing harder/not possible.

[Jocelot]

Okay, stopped by to say I pulled off a Double ButterFly today!! OMG, I felt like crying seeing those two beautiful energy insects fall down apon my opponent's guard. It was beautiful!

Wasn't able to go two for two, but I'm working on it. Double Butterfly awesome!

[Shining Aquas]

Well, here's what I've seen:

Double Blue = No problem

Blue, then Red = Possible

But I've also seen Red, then Blue. So, I'd imagine if that combination is possible, then Double Red should be possible too.

To which I'd ask, why the hell bother? Double Red means 50% tension and still only one actual unblockable setup. Blue then Red is fine, Double Blue is still fancy, but any combination other than those seems like a waste.

[Honnou]

Double butterfly all the time, or quit anji.

Kara cancel into 3s at every opportunity, or quit anji.

Honnou out, with good advice left for all of you.

[Dream Maker]

You're serious ? Man, I can already quit, and in fact there won't be any Anji players left with such and advice. ^^ It's not like they're a lot already...

[Honnou]

;o yeah I know right!!!

But learning 2s 3sKara 5s 5hs ->hs fuujin is pretty necessary for fighting Johnny, order sol, pot, and who else was it...one of the ky's?

[Dream Maker]

Yup, damn useful low combos for all heavyweights : those you said + Robo-ky and Aba since you can't combo 2S, 2D, S fuujin on them. ^^

But I mean although mastering 3S cancelling and double butterfly add a lot to your game it is still very possible to win without that. 3S cancel is great but it is a 2 frame cancel, even if you are good at doing it you're not really immune to failure so sometimes going for simpler combo may be safer. And double butterfly is without any doubt a great mixup but just as every mixup it can become predictable if done too often and I'm not sure it's not escapable.

But I must say that if I had enough skill to do that 100% of the time when I want to... Yeah that would be great. ^^

[Jocelot]

Double butterfly all the time, or quit anji.

Kara cancel into 3s at every opportunity, or quit anji.

Honnou out, with good advice left for all of you.

Still working on that, tbqh. Gotta start somewhere, right?