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[P4AU] Ken Amada Gameplay Discussion

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Welcome to the Ken & Koromaru discussion thread! All gameplay-related posts for "a boy and his dog" belong here. Be polite, stay on topic, and follow site rules. Combo and video threads will be opened after the Japanese console release.

 

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Removed.

 

 

 

Copied the others to make this shitty header, feel free to use it until someone else makes a better one.

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Might as well try and start a discussion!

 

After seeing a good bit of him on the Evo Atlus stream, I'm interested in how his Shadow version compares to him. Looks like an intelligent Shadow Ken may be able to dictate the flow of the match well, but I wonder if he'd be able to utilize Shadow Berserk as well as some of the better shadow characters.

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I don't really see any amazing uses for Shadow Berserk with s.Ken... None of his supers really allow any followup and his SB moves are pretty average aside from 236AB but I feel like it's not worth doing 236AB > OMC > 236AB > OMC > etc

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Super excited to play Ken. Koromaru seems more like an assist than shadow/doll like Zato/Carl. Some combos people were doing on EVO stream reminded me a bit of SBX.

Looking forward to some info getting filled out in here. I know some people graciously took lots of notes at EVO.

On Shadow Ken, he does have SB Mediarama, so I could see there being ways to heal a ton of health after going into Shadow Burst. I guess his worth also depends on how well regular Ken can make use of OMB, can't really picture anything yet though.

Did anyone figure out or see any decent combos off his throw midscreen? Definitely looks like he can do something off it. Maybe 5C > 236A/B/A+B > stuff?

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So I got to waste a lot of my Evo time playing the newest build of P4U2 and I'll admit... I played nothing but Ken the whole time. Since I wasn't able to really test anything outside of an in game situation, I don't have as much information as I'd like to open up an official type of like Ken Combos Thread like the character subforums generally have.

 

In general I find that Ken has some big normals and specials that are great for controlling space and Koromaru (Doge) tends to be really quick with (mostly) small hitboxes. It turns into throwing out a quick Doge move and confirming into a combo or covering against any counter-pokes with Ken's long normals.

 

___________________________________

 

I'll run through my knowledge of moves here.

 

5A: A decent poke in my opinion though some people disagree...quick and a much bigger hitbox than some character's 5As. 5AA has some issues hitting airborne though so it can be an issue. Jump cancellable on hit.

 

2A: Looks kind of like Yu's 2A. Hits low and does NOT chain into itself. Combos into 2B or 5B on normal hit.

 

5B: Really good poke. Reaches what seems to be almost half screen and only really suffers from being a bit slow. Combos into 236A from max range. 2B from a bit closer and 236B on CH. I'm told that this has a 2nd hit on whiff that hits higher but I was unable to test this.

 

2B: Has 2 hits. First hit hits low and has a relatively short range. 2nd hit hits anti-air and has a longer range but shorter than 5B. The head invuln on this move is really specific and it's really hard to plain anti-air anybody with it because most of the time, I'd just get CH with a jump-in. Jump cancellable on hit.

 

5C: Sends Doge out with a pretty good moving hitbox with lots of active frames. Doge will move to a spot where he will reach the opponent if necessary but the range of this move is so large that it's usually not an issue.

 

2C: Doge runs at the opponent and then kicks upwards. Launches on hit. Really good for jump loops. As with 5C, he'll run to where he's in range but it's more relevant here because the move doesn't go nearly as far. Can be IAD'd over :(

 

5D: Puts Doge away where he heals up slowly. Can be called back in with the D button or called in with an attack with the C button. The attack sends him from the top of the screen and can take some people by surprise but it's hard to combo off. You can mash D while getting pressured to keep Doge from eating a bunch of damage.

 

j.A: hits 3 times but can be cancelled between hits. Good forwards hitbox and is really fast and active. Good to beat air dashes with if you're a little late. Goes into full combos on hit.

 

j.B: This move's hitbox is crazy good. The only issue is that it's a bit slow to start up. Soft knockdowns on CH and goes into really good damage.

 

j.2B: Not as good of a move in neutral as j.B in my opinion. Better used in combos. This moves knocks down and can be used to set up a simple air knockdown or a re-launch with 2C.

 

B+D: Ken's DP is pretty cool but really punishable. He jumps off the screen and comes back down a little further forward from where he started. Has a hitbox on the way down but ONLY on hit. Really hard to scumbag super because Ken does not turn around and it crosses you up for the opponent by itself and since neither invuln super seems to have a back hitbox, there's no real point trying.

 

B+C: Ken's throw leaves the opponent behind him (so do 4B+C in corner pressure) and allows them to tech when they hit the ground, shortly after Ken has recovered. Can't be combo'd off mid-screen without Doge (wasn't able to test in the corner) and doesn't seem to see a lot of use due to his long normals.

 

A+B: Ken's AoA goes about half screen but is incredibly slow and telegraphed. Along with it being unsafe on block without Doge support, it's tough to use.

 

236A/B: Sends out the spear on a chain and then pulls the opponent in. It's possible to miss the 2nd hit at max range. 

- A version goes half screen and is quite fast. Combos off 5B. 

- B version is a FC moves, goes almost full screen but is slower than the A version. Does not combo off 5B without CH.

- SB version seems to go the range of B but at the speed of A. Lots of hit-stun on this version.

All versions leave the opponent standing on ground hit and ground slide towards you on air hit and can be followed up with A or B for the move below.

DON'T WHIFF THIS WITHOUT DOGE SUPPORT READY.

 

A or B After 236X: A followup to the move above. As far as I can see, both A and B are the same but I may be wrong. I don't think there was an SB version for this at all. This is the first move in the list that uses Ken's persona and can be interrupted to take a persona card away. That being said, it seemed like 236A > A followup was a true blockstring, at least on normal block so guard cancel is the only thing that's going to break this as it doesn't come out on whiff either. This move knocks down and may be an overhead. I don't think it is but Mike Muscles swears he couldn't block it low (but he's a scrub). Really good in combos and also makes 236X safe.

 

214A/B: Heals Doge and I'm told it heals Ken too (But I did not notice this). Also uses Ken's persona and is more likely to be hit out of than the one above. Recovery is decently fast and I was able to use it during a blocked 236C and be completely safe. B version is slower but still really fast and heals more. SB version heals almost a full Doge gauge and recovers very quickly.

Edit: Watched some footage and it does indeed heal Ken... Interesting.

 

236C/D: Doge spins around and moves forwards along the ground. Hits multiple times and launches a tiny bit on the last hit. As far as I can see, 236D seems to hit more times than 236C but this is unconfirmed. It definitely moves Doge further forward though. Really good for oki or cross up/through mixup. SB version untested :(

 

214C/D: Doge jumps and forms a giant super active hitbox of doom all the way until he hits the ground. Really good for corner pressure and starts decent combos. D version goes much further horizontally than the C version. SB version untested :(

I still need to test some stuff with this. I saw it go through 2 invincible wake-up supers and 1 DP and just straight up CH the guy, it was pretty crazy but I don't know why it worked.

 

236236A/B: Ken spins his spear around a bunch. Has invincibility and a decent hitbox. Used as a wake-up DP or for damage I'd say.

 

236236C/D: Doge's persona shoots a bunch of fire that hits pretty much full screen. This move can be used in the air and has no invincibility. The fire hits almost full screen but comes from where Doge is standing. There was one point where this move whiffed because Doge was not on screen and the fire just went nowhere helpful.

 

214214A/B: Awakening super. Really cool animation and has pretty much the same use as 236236A/B.

 

I think that's about it...

 

A quick note on his auto-combo I guess...

5AA is pretty average. Will combo off 5A from any range.

5AAA also does 5C at the same time

5AAAA is 236A but can drop if done at max range

5AAAAA is the followup for 236A

5AAAAAA is 214214A/B.

 

Because 5AAA uses Doge, you can't followup after the 236A~A unless Doge was busy at the time. Even then, you only really get 236D or 2C > j.B > j.2B

____________________

 

General combo theory seems like it will revolve around comboing into 2C and using a combination of j.B and j.2B to combo into knockdown or 2C for the re-launch. I feel like I might be able to find some 5B > 2B > IAD+5C > j.B > j.2B loops once I get training mode but this is pretty much what I was able to find in game.

 

The easiest launch I found was something like ...> 236A~A > 2C > 66j.B. I want to experiment with 236A~A > 236D > IAD > late j.B > 2B > j.B stuff but wasn't able to get this happening in match.

 

Once you've launched, you're really looking to knock down into 2C to re-launch and continue. I want to try comboing j.2B into 214C/D in future but I didn't find the timing unfortunately. If I can get that to work, I may be able to get a DP > 236236A/B or 214214A/B happening in the corner.

 

So a full combo I found so far looked something like this:

5B > 236A~A > 2C > 669j.B > dj.B > j.2B > 2C > j.B > j.2B > oki

 

Off throw seems to go into something like B+C > 2C > j.B > j.2B > 2C > j.B > j.2B > oki

 

Random air hits can generally be confirmed into j.2B > 2C > j.B > etc

 

Look pretty similar? That's because so far, everything seems to fall into jump loops... We'll see how this turns out with the ideas above.

 

Ken can combo off his DP by cancelling into super (236236C/D only mid screen) and on CH he can link a 5A into j.A > j.B > j.2B if the DP carries to the corner.

_________________________

 

 That's about all I've got for now. I'll add stuff here if I can think of it.

 

 

I don't know if anyone remembers me from Evo... I was playing mostly with Carl colours... About 6 foot tall white dude... Dark brown/black just above shoulder length (kinda messy) hair... Not the skinniest man around...

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I'm awaiting mod clarification on whether or not to put all my notes (now need to add yours, Pen_Ninja into the opening post or just dump them in the thread.

Thank you for the banner! Adding it ASAP!

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j.A: hits 3 times but can be cancelled between hits. Good forwards hitbox and is really fast and active. Good to beat air dashes with if you're a little late. Goes into full combos on hit.

Did you happen to notice if all the hits hit overhead or not?

Since you can cancel any hit, wondering how effective stuff like j.A(2) > j.B(land cancel) > low/throw or similar stuff would be.

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Here's what I learned from my testing at EVO I mainly played Shadow Ken the whole time:

 

Shadow Ken in Berserk can combo 236A 236B and vice versa I wasn't able to pull it off myself in a combo only during a blockstring but another Ken player who was testing Berserk combos with me landed it on me a few times.  We didn't get much testing in aside from that, doing it too fast with the same strength will accidentally give you the 236236A/B super.   I thought you might be able to use shadow berserk to chain cancel a bunch of 214A/B/ABs but, maybe I was doing it wrong, I was unable to cancel them into each other outside of cancelling into one from a blocked//hit 236A/B. 

 

I couldn't tell if you could cancel the dogs specials more "freely" either, and since most of his have long startup outside of their SP versions I don't know if they'll be exceptionally useful in Shadow Berserk combos. 

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This is everything I compiled, pre-thread, on Ken. Includes credits, video links, and a link to the Tweet with the screenshot of his movelist.

Health: 9500

[Calculated by mixedmethods during stream matches but not officially confirmed.]

Playstyle: Quasi-puppet.

Title: The Pretentious Tenderfoot Duo.

Personas: Kala-Nemi (Ken), Cerberus (Koromaru). (Note that they share one set of cards.)

Persona Cards: 2.

Arcana: Justice (assumed, someone confirm?).

Origin: Persona 3 (SEES members).

Movelist (screenshot from Evo): https://mobile.twitter.com/HellfireCO/status/487642431379079169/photo/1

Known Unknowns

Ability to jump-cancel and hop-cancel normals on hit or block.

Practicality of super-canceling from first hit of DP.

Exact damage of Koromaru moves (500-600 seen in play).

Exact damage of Ken's moves.

Quite a bit else.

Normal Moves

Vile Assault/Furious Action/BD: The rising off-screen spear move. Hits twice. Ken goes off-screen into the air for a very long time, making whiff punishes easy. Does 1050 damage if both hits connect (non-Awakened opponent).

j.2B: Command move that spikes Ken down. Useful for air-to-air confirms into combos.

5A: Standard jab.

2A: Standard low jab.

5B: Standing spear move. When whiffed, a follow-up overhead move occurs. Can be used to bait whiffs but very unsafe if not gatlinged. Second hit can be cancelled to 2B to bait jump-ins.

2B: Two-hitting anti-air attack with great horizontal range. First hit is a low and air-blockable; second hit is mid and AUB. Can be baited and punished by some characters.

2AB: Sweep. Hop-cancelable.

j.A: Multi-hit jump attack, similar to Aigis's j.A. Can be used similarly to Mitsuru's falling j.A.

j.B: Wide-ranging jump attack, similar to Labrys's j.B. Can be followed with j.2B into a combo. Cannot be used as an instant overhead. Possible to cross up the opponent.

236A/B (Charge Thrust): The giant spear attack. Pulls opponent in on hit. Safe on block with persona follow-up. Will trade with multi-hit projectiles and can be jumped on reaction. No dead zone. Start-up is slow enough to make using this raw a poor idea. Has a follow-up persona attack.

Gigantic Impact (A/B or AB after Charge Thrust): Follow-up persona attack to Charge Thrust.

AoA: Universal overhead. Ken places his spear upright on the ground and appears to vault over. Fatal Recovery.

CD/j.CD: Universal throw. Possible to combo after ground throw.

214A/B/AB: Mediarama. Heals Ken and Koromaru a set amount. Fast start-up, long recovery. If hit during recovery, Ken will lose a persona card. Likely baitable if the opponent is watching Koromaru's meter, as with Aigis's Orgia mode changes.

Koromaru Commands

Regardless of whether they appear to be overheads or lows, all of Koromaru's attacks are considered mid strikes and can be blocked high or low.

5D: Removes Koromaru from the field. Koromaru will slowly regenerate health when densummoned.

5D (resummon): Koromaru reappears from Ken's side of the screen, doing a diagonal jump-in. Again: does not hit high.

5/6C: Koromaru jumps into the air, moves forward a set distance, and attacks. If opponent throws a projectile, Koromaru will take the hit before moving back toward Ken. This can cover Ken's approach or be used in pressure. Can be followed up on counter hit.

j.C: Same as the above, but allows you to input the attack airborne.

2C: Koromaru runs forward and performs an upward knife slash. Can low profile some projectiles (such as Yukiko's fans) and convert into a combo. Useful for repositioning Koromaru for left-right mix-ups or crossups. Knocks opponent OTG.

236C/D: After start-up, Koromaru performs three forward slashes, each one moving him slightly further away from the move's starting point. Allows Ken to lock the opponent down on block.

214C/D: Koromaru jumps into the air and spins slowly, acting as a constant hitbox. Useful for lockdown pressure after a combo.

*Both 236C/D and 214C/D can be inputted while Ken is midair.

If Koromaru is hit, he will halt his attack, return to ground, and return to Ken. If Ken is hit, Koromaru will also be knocked down and remain knocked down until Ken leaves hitstun.

In blockstun, Ken can continue to input Koromaru commands.

Supers

Thunder Reign (236236A/B/AB): Ken spins his spear and creates a giant disc of green lightening. Unknown what, if any, invuln it has. Very unsafe on whiff. Outside of Awakening, Ken's best damage super. Persona attack. Possible Fatal Recovery (unconfirmed, spotted by mixedmethods during Evo stream).

Fire Breath (236236C/D/CD): The super ending to his auto-combo. Sends a giant hitbox of flames out in front of Koromaru, not Ken. Possible to use this as a sneaky punish if you've positioned Koromaru appropriately. Can be used mid-combo after j.2B. Quick start-up, but can be superjumped if thrown out raw at max range. Persona move. Requires Koromaru.

214214A/B/AB: Awakening super. Ken performs an upward slash that launches the opponent for further damage. Confirmed to have some invuln and can be cancelled into after the first hit of Ken's Furious Action, but is very punishable on whiff. If Koromaru is not on the field when this super is used, its damage is lowered significantly. With Koromaru, this super does 3050 to a non-Awakened opponent (unknown whether A or B version, but was not skill boost). Need to be fairly close to opponent to make this hit. Possible reversal. Not a persona move.

Instant Kill: Ken and Koromaru surround the opponent with Hama (Ken) and Mudo (Koromaru) spells, instantly killing them. Looks flashy, but we don't know anything else.

Credit for moves, their descriptions, and properties goes to Dopples, whose paste-bin notes were the primary source for this guide; 9:02 AM for additional information in the news thread; HellfireCO for tweeting a shot of Ken's movelist; and everyone who played Ken at Evo.

Videos

http://youtu.be/d1_biodvIXg

CPU-Ken vs. Yu Namba playing Rise from UltraChen.

http://youtu.be/r5V5WPox-Qo

Ken vs. Sho, from Atlus's June stream. Shows Ken's 5A and 5B.

http://youtu.be/1Na6WO2BMqE

Ken vs. Minazuki (late June, English).

http://youtu.be/_L26nSNFYwk

Ken's IK in action. Evo footage.

http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz/b/547061949?t=2h55m10s

P4AU Evo tournament, featuring Ho-chan's Rise and several appearances by Ken. Links to the stream archive on MadCatz's channel.

Regarding the 2B baiting: Doodles is another Aigis main, and Aigis's Orgia backdash will allow her to bait Ken's 2B and punish it easily thanks to Orgia backdash being airborne, having invuln, and the fact that Aigis becomes a giant PITA in Orgia. I would think Yosuke's speed might let him glide-block the first hit and land in time to hit Ken before the second, but that's just theory-fighting on my end.

Like I said in the news thread, I think smart Koromaru usage is going to wind up being key to playing Ken at a higher level, as well as getting your opponent scared of his range. Doesn't sound like using the dog strictly to eat projectiles is the best way to play; I think it's about distracting opponents and using Koromaru for added hitstun.

As an aside, for those who haven't played the RPGs, here's why Ken's movelist looks the way it does (no real spoilers, but cutting because the post is long enough): [collapse]Ken's P3 persona learned Hamaon, Hama Boost, Ziodyne, Mediarama (later became the full-party heal spell), Samarecarm (revive ally with full health), and pierce-type phys moves such as Cruel Attack, Vile Assault, Primal Force, etc. (For those who didn't play the games: phys damage came in three types in Persona 3 -- strike, slash, and pierce. Kens spear was considered to deal pierce damage, along with Aigis's gun and Yukari's bow.) Unfortunately, his stat build made him a bit jack-of-all-trades type and he was overshadowed as a healer by Yukari, as a Zio user by Akihiko (who had the third-highest magic stat in the game, despite his representation in Arena), and his plot got him a lot of hate. Kala-Nemi is his evolved persona. Koromaru, on the other hand, always fought with Cerberus, and was proficient with both Mudo spells and fire attacks (which is why you need Koromaru for Fire Breath), and dealt slash damage with a kunai held in his mouth. Ken was weak to Mudo/darkness, Koromaru to Hama/light, which is why their IK is a tag-team effort. While Koromaru was fun to bring to battles due to the quotes from other allies (Aigis was a goldmine), he also had a ridiculously wonky stat build. Both Ken and Koromaru had high agility stats, however, with Koromaru maxing out at a ridiculous 80-something in that category for a clean "highest in the game" award), which probably has nothing to do why Ken's run speed is fast, but it's interesting trivia nonetheless. I'd say the majority of players didn't use Ken and Koromaru much in combat due to the fact that they were outclassed in their respective strengths by someone else, but a sizable number used a party of Ken, Koromaru, and Aigis as their core team once all three joined.

Ken was also famous for wearing shorts, but he's now wearing the Gekkokaun uniform sported by the rest of the P3 cast, and the yellow armband signifies he's a member of student council. (The SEES team had red armbands.) Snazzy! Over the course of P3, Ken became something of a younger brother to Akihiko, whereas Koromaru and Aigis had many hilarious (and funny-but-also-sad) side conversations, as Aigis was able to understand Koromaru's thoughts. Which included Aigis telling you that Koromaru wanted to go to the movies, and if you want to know what happens next, play the game.[/collapse]

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Ah, I can also confirm that none of Ken's moves besides 5A are jump-cancellable on block. Sorry, I thought I added that to the notes! Anyways, great guide, can't wait to see more,

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So couple things I noticed with Ken at EVO.

So in regards to 236A/B>A/B the follow up from Kala Nemi DOES have an SB Version. From what I remember it does launch on hit with SB so you may be able to do that into Koro Ball to continue a combo, also with Super Gattai: Ultimate Cross *214214A/B* It's hit box above Ken is pretty much the top of the screen, also it can catch character's out of their back dash if they try and do that to bait it from what I saw myself.

Also with his IK it goes off of Koromaru's position so it's hard to find a real use for it. I did manage to land it on stream so you can have an idea of what it exactly looks like.
 

Edit; one thing I forgot about the IK, if Koromaru is not active on the screen when you use it, Ken just stands there like an idiot. I'm wondering if you can press C/D to start it up after Koro jumps back on screen but I only had that happen once so I never thought to try it

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First post has been updated so that everything we know about Ken is now in one place! Massive thanks again to Sharakonta, Dopples, 9:02 AM, Monokeros, and Pen_Ninja. You guys did the actual work here. :D

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No problem. I'm sad I couldn't test more at EVO but we'll have the game soon

Sent from the NOL Intelligence Department.

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No problem. I'm sad I couldn't test more at EVO but we'll have the game soon

Sent from the NOL Intelligence Department.

Great "sent from." I lol'd.

And, hey, you gave us plenty! I think we have enough info to start making some educated guesses about Ken's gameplay. I did a tl;dr post in the news thread but I'd love to get an actual discussion going. So: lots of complaints about Koromaru eating projectiles but my read is that using Koromaru to take hits is actually a bad idea (unless it's something clean like "let Koromaru eat this one projectile so Ken can immediately get in"). Without Koromaru to cover recovery or add hitstun, I think Ken may be pretty weak, which is going to make smart use of Koromaru paramount.

I noticed that Koromaru's normals tended to do about 560-600 damage (no idea what the command and SB ones are like), which is also worth discussing. Ken's moves do a good amount of damage but I suspect those added hits from Koromaru are going to be key for adding threatening damage and, more importantly, hitstun.

On a totally unrelated note, while many old and new characters have status ailments, Ken is one of the few who doesn't. (Maybe shock is possible with SB Thunder Reign?) It's not necessarily something he needs, but I found it interesting. I can't shake the feeling that he's going to be quite a bit like Labrys (but without damage loss on defence) -- he seems like a character that's going to require you to have both MU knowledge and good fundamentals. His range makes me think he'll excel at whiff punishment, and I think he'll be able to play legit footsies and make certain opponents regret pushing buttons.

Nothing fancy in his high-low game, but I don't think that's the point. Once he safely gets in, I think it's going to be about using Koromaru in conjunction with Ken to do serious pressure and to obscure Ken's movements. (Block the dog, miss the sweep, etc.) His DP isn't as bad as I'd feared, although it still looks terrible. The upshot is the fact that he can go from being pressured in the corner to knocking opponents to midscreen and then some (seems like the second hit knocks opponents back). Of course, as soon as everyone learns exactly where Ken lands with that DP, it's back to being awful. (But no Fatal Recovery, thank God.) There must be set-ups that allow for DP (first hit) > Koromaru intercept while Ken is off-screen > DP second hit. ... right? It's flashy as hell but, honestly, I think DPing with Ken is a huge gamble. But I wonder about it's escape potential if an opponent has already committed to something, as going off-screen is certainly a stylish way to force a whiff. The start-up seems pretty fast but we'll need the frame data.

I'm also anxious to test j.B going through supers and a DP for a counter hit. Is his j.B going to be that godlike or was it a case of "the attack hit Koromaru, not Ken"?

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Well in regards to his DP, he can't call Koro once you've started the DP, BUT if you CH them and land in the corner you can follow up with 2A>stuff to get some damage off of it or even just go into Mix up's with Koro ball. Also, it can be useful to Let Koro get hit TO Get him closer. Like let's say a Yukiko who try's zoning from the air out of 236A/B reach, you can use Koro to get into 2C range and hit them so you can either start a combo or at the least pressure them. Also in regard to status ailments, I don't think he really needs one. His pressure once he and Koro get in can be pretty scary. Also SB Mediarama can almost fully heal Koro if he's knocked out.

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In the madcatz stream at about 2:47:15 Ken uses the SB version of Gigantic Impact and looks like it shocks Rise but it didn't last that long, prboably the same amount of time as Kanji's SB This'll Hurt

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In the madcatz stream at about 2:47:15 Ken uses the SB version of Gigantic Impact and looks like it shocks Rise but it didn't last that long, prboably the same amount of time as Kanji's SB This'll Hurt

Great catch, thanks! I usually post off my iPad, so I can't review the MadCatz stream (or any other) while doing so. I'll add that to the notes.

Well in regards to his DP, he can't call Koro once you've started the DP, BUT if you CH them and land in the corner you can follow up with 2A>stuff to get some damage off of it or even just go into Mix up's with Koro ball.

Yeah, I was wondering what the timing on Koromaru's moves is like when combined with That Goddamn DP. This is meaningless theory fighting, but, say: input 236C/D and hit Koromaru start-up frames, then immediately punch DP > DP Part 1 > Ken flies away > Koromaru active frames; opponent forced to deal with three-strike move > DP Part 2. I'm guessing it wouldn't work. Why? Because I think ASW was afraid of the Zappa comparisons and decided "Okay, so let's give him this flashy-ass move that's a suicide ticket and hope people use it despite the obvious problems. BALANCE COMPLETE!" The thing I find interesting about his DP is the fact that it gets him from corner pressure to having knocked the opponent back further than midscreen, so it's ... a game-breakingly good reversal if you ever land it, but otherwise useless.

Also, it can be useful to Let Koro get hit TO Get him closer. Like let's say a Yukiko who try's zoning from the air out of 236A/B reach, you can use Koro to get into 2C range and hit them so you can either start a combo or at the least pressure them. Also in regard to status ailments, I don't think he really needs one. His pressure once he and Koro get in can be pretty scary. Also SB Mediarama can almost fully heal Koro if he's knocked out.

I think we're in more agreement than it appears. In the case of an even trade -- a single-hit projectile vs. Koromaru -- then letting Koromaru take a hit so that Ken can poke and/or get in is an absolutely valid strategy and probably what ASW intended. But I don't think blowing all of Koromaru's health just eating projectiles is good play, as once Ken is in, a lot of his moves need that support from Koromaru to either cover the recovery frames or put down serious pressure. So sending a Koro-ball into Rise's multi-hit disc or any bullet move from Aigis strikes me as poor planning, as once Koromaru gets hit, if Ken isn't blocking he's open to the next hit or projectile, Koromaru's health just went down while Ken's in hitstun, and neither half of the team can do anything until hitstun decays -- that's what I meant when I said that I don't think Koromaru's most important role is to eat projectiles. Just like Shadow Labrys can tell her persona to block, I think we're supposed to desummon Koromaru at times to keep him from being taken out by projectiles. The fact that Koromaru's reappearance works the way it does leaves me wondering as well. More theory fighting: if Ken's under pressure and the opponent goes for a frame trap, wouldn't the tag-in blow up a typical frame trap? If Ken's blocking in the corner and I'm Aigis ... let's say that Ken has blocked for a bit and Aigis decides to go for a frame trap with 5A > 2A > [throw/low/mid/overhead/jump back to punish mashing]. If Ken resummons Koromaru around the 5A > 2A (because this is an obvious set-up by Aigis, his normals aren't fast enough to mash out, his DP isn't an option, and he doesn't want to play the guessing game), wouldn't Koromaru potentially hit Aigis right out of pressure? It seems like the opponent has to be standing and not blocking, but one of two things should happen: Koromaru hits the opponent or Koromaru eats the opponent's next hit; regardless, Ken gets out of the corner. I'm certain I saw several players successfully attempt tagging in Koromaru in order to blow up certain blockstrings; I just don't know how solid those blockstrings were.

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From what I gathered of what gameplay I saw of Ken/Koro, it would appear that they play more similar to Relius Clover. You can summon Koro in and out of the battlefield, which seems interesting. However, Koro seems to be used to help you get in. But Ken has some decent range with his normals, due to the length of his spear. I can't wait to get my hands on P4AU so that I can try out them out. I doubt I'll be using the Shadow versions of any characters, tbh. But I'll experiment with them due to their high risk, high reward.

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Wow, I was obviously playing Ken all wrong at EVO :x Still, glad to see my theories about his moveset were right (in that he seems like a great anti-zoner)

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Wow, I was obviously playing Ken all wrong at EVO :x Still, glad to see my theories about his moveset were right (in that he seems like a great anti-zoner)

No, that's not what I meant at all! Oh, God. I think there's no "wrong" way when we're all trying to feel out the character; I've just heard a lot of grumbling about Koromaru being a free pass around projectiles and I'm wondering if there isn't more to these two than that.

I do think you're right about him being a zoner's nightmare, though. And I'm happy we have that option. I'm kind of curious about Ken vs. Elizabeth too, actually.

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