Waldstein Infinite Discussion (Tournament Legality)

[Tigre]

If you are not civil about your opinion in this thread I will warn you. this is your only warning. Use your big person words.

Okay. So at this point I'm pretty sure that most of us are aware of the Waldstein infinite timer-scam.

If you're not familiar here a video MikeZ made explaining it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_st5Nk6pA8M&

Here is a very in depth post also made by MikeZ http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8875-uniel-waldstein/page-2#entry827736

So earlier this morning I was tagged on twitter asking for input about if this is something we need to address. The major concerns I'm hearing is that it just looks bad, and it's fairly practical. This is something I want to open to the community. How do you guys feel about it? I would like this addressed before my first major with the game (Summer Jam) so we know where we're going.

Give your input on the situation, why it should or should not be banned, and if banned what conditions should be enforced for a disqualification.

The idea that Nadakai and I came to an agreement on is IF it is banned it should be after something like three reps. it shows intent to continue the infinite beyond a doubt. That's an if.

If you are not civil about your opinion in this thread I will warn you. this is your only warning. Use your big person words.

[Tigre]

I wanna throw this out there before anyone questions it that games have banned timer scams before. See:MVC2

[Zero-Sennin]

I know there have been other games where things like this were allowed to go on.

I think that this particular case is obnoxious enough/easy enough to set up that either an outright ban or the proposed suggestion would be enough to deal with the issue properly.

[Psycho]

I say ban it mostly so the game is shown in the best light possible at its first major. Some people are still om the fence and seeing a wald win due to the infinite might stray them away.

[madigawadesperate]

I personally think while no they shouldn't ban said combo, they should ban motions over two wall throws because it actually is a pretty damaging combo and I don't think he should lose that combo tbh. Like if you throw twice you lose the round. 

 

personally this sort of stuff makes the game really ugly and seeing this in a tournament would really turn people off, it's a great game tbh it would be sad if people ended up saying lulz marvel jr. 

[SoulGuitarist]

I can't vote on mobile but I'll provide my personal opinion. I think it should not be banned. I feel it's very pointless to ban something the player can perform manually. I would understand if infinites and such were only possible with mods but I think if the player can pull it off normally, I think it should stay. I personally think anything that's in the player's control should stay if they can set them up as well as execute them during a match. (infinites, glitches)

[Dusk Thanatos]

While I'm normally all for letting things go as they go, there are a few major reasons I think the community could actually get away with banning this, and may want to consider it:

A) It's actually pretty easy to police as compared other infinites. As pointed out elsewhere, it's not a bnb path, etc., and it's blatantly obvious if you're actually trying to do it. It would be easy to set a hard limit on 6C reps in a combo and just enforce it.

 

B) Wald doesn't need the infinite to function as a character. He's still top tier regardless of whether or not he has timer scam.

 

C) I honestly do expect it to be patched out, anyways. The last time an infinite popped in MBAACC (the KohaMech infinite), it was removed in pretty short order. It may be logistically harder to patch PSN, but I would not be very surprised if the patch came out sooner or later.

 

D) Watching someone timer scam with a zero damage infinite is just going to kill game hype for people watching. It's in the best interest for the growth of the community, I think, if we don't have people winning high exposure matches with timer scam on an infinite that's just boring to watch and almost impossible to drop.

[Coren]

You gain less than half a percentage of meter per rep, each rep does 0 damage, it only works because of a glitch that makes 6C not function as normal, and there's no positioning to be gained from it as it is corner only, you even give the opponent full grd. Literally the only reason to preform the 6C glitch (lets call it a glitch to make things more clear that the move is not working as intended) is to stall out the round in a non-interactive manner by abusing a bug. The glitch is not prohibitively hard to execute (mash 6C) and taking it away would not cripple Waldstein as he was already fighting for top rank with Senaru's Eltnum and at the top of the Arcadia tiers BEFORE the glitch was discovered.

 

There's a long and storied history of banning timer scam tactics like the gambit glitch, peekaboo glitch, quicksilver glitch, ruby heart glitch, various KOF bugs that lead to freezes, and other non-interactive patterns that serve no strategic value other than to stall out the round. If for no other reason than no one wants to sit through a waldstein mirror where each round goes to timeout for practical reasons, ban it.

 

Anyone caught doing that shit at one of my events will not just get round loss, but a disqualification without refund.

[Coren]

I personally think while no they shouldn't ban said combo, they should ban motions over two wall throws because it actually is a pretty damaging combo and I don't think he should lose that combo tbh. Like if you throw twice you lose the round. 

 

personally this sort of stuff makes the game really ugly and seeing this in a tournament would really turn people off, it's a great game tbh it would be sad if people ended up saying lulz marvel jr. 

 

The loop itself does 0 damage a rep, and for the same resources to setup the loop he has much higher damage and mixup setup options off any starter.

[Afternoon Intergalactic]

In the interest of not turning people off of this game, I would vote to ban the infinite. If the wald player shows intent of trying to win by timescam, he should lose the round. I wouldn't want to limit the wald in terms of what combos he can/can't do when playing regularly, but it should be fairly obvious if he goes for the loop after said combo.

[madigawadesperate]

The loop itself does 0 damage a rep, and for the same resources to setup the loop he has much higher damage and mixup setup options off any starter.

 

The one video i saw him do was around 3k damage with the loop, oh god

[Tigre]

I would also like to point out that the initial argument I heard in my op is not my opinion on the topic. I have not said if I do or do not want this banned.

[Sashi]

I don't see a reason for not banning it other than, "Oh, but the Japanese aren't banning it!"

 

It's extremely easy to setup and it's extremely easy to execute. There's zero reasons to go for the 6C loops outside of timerscam, 'cause his regular combos are much better in every aspect except actual combo length. It's just going to give people a bad impression of the game.

[ehrik]

Very good points were already made by dusk thanatos and coren.

I'd vote to keep it banned since he actually can function 1000% without it and it'd look bad for the game when other people come to watch. Also French bread is very good about patching infinites and glitches very quickly, so it won't even be a issue down the line.

[Avion]

I have only seen japanese walds do it in vids about a week after it was found out, after that I never saw it again.  I'm pretty sure it's soft banned in japan.

[Tigre]

Is there any way that someone can reach out to a japanese player and ask them about the situation? I'm unfamiliar with any jp players twitter names or anything like that.

[Pfhor]

Ban it on account of it being a timer scam only infinite that takes very little resources, can be done anywhere on the screen, and is very detrimental to the game. It probably won't even be there in a few months, so might as well get rid of it now.

[LordSpectreX]

Firstly, I do honestly wonder how many of you do actually play with a local IRL community of 20+ people that would actually hold these tournaments, and not just netplayers. Not that it would make your argument invalid, but it would certainly seem much more impersonal. It's very easy to make an opinion on something that you ultimately have no stake in and doesn't actually effect you.

 

Secondly, the argument "it's in the game, keep it" is a very ineffective and dangerous argument to take. On one hand, i doubt you'd allow the use of unlimited characters in BB, or boss characters, but then suddenly a time scam glitch, a noticeably easy one to perform, is acceptable? Would you accept standard damage infinites? Infinite blockstrings to chip? Game breaking freezes? Glitches to take the character off screen? How do you judge this without being dogmatic or inconsistent? Glitches should only really be allowed if they are "ineffective". If say, Seth had a cute glitch combo that had no advantages over his usual BnB, it just looked a bit silly, then that's fine, as you'd be able to judge that objectively by looking at the properties of the character.

 

Who is actually helped by allowing the infinite? Waldstein players already playing a top tier character. This is only really an argument because some people have a frankly impersonal attitude towards this based on theory and perspectives rather than any kind of practicality whatsoever. The closest I've seen is "banning something makes the game look broken". I've never seen negativity towards a game for banning a glitch. Characters and stages, sure, but glitches? And do you seriously think people watching 70 counts of Waldstein infinite is going to give them any more of a positive opinion? If anything, all it's going to do is give the impression that the game isn't competitive and the people playing it don't actually care about it. Come on.

[Sharkkato103]

Ban any infinite combo that does not kill an opponent before the timer runs out given a full match utilizing the infinite.

So yes, ban it. Use it in friendlys, say absolutely not in tournies.

[TekkamanArk]

I vote for ban, solely because this is a glitch in the hit detection system and was not intended.

[choysauce]

For the sake of the competitive spirit of tournaments I think it should be banned.

 

But for hype's sake I think letting people troll with it shouldn't stop them from doing it.

So my input is to put a rep limit for it, so someone can show their disrespect for doing it, but not outright let them not be able to do it.

I say 5 to 8 reps would be a good length to keep it fun and still demoralize the opponent.

[Coren]

Lets say you're running a 16 man bracket at a major with two setups, in your bracket you've got 3 waldstein players all of whom are going to do the 6C glitch to stall out a round whenever it'll win them the round. If they win each round in a set that way then that's at least 369 seconds eaten up right there, if they go for the glitch each round in a set where they lose a game but win a round then that's 495 seconds eaten up, or nearly 10 minutes for one match.

 

Considering I only have two setups and three Wald players, if one of them goes 4-2 then he's already eaten up nearly an hour, just in time spent on the setup. But if I had say, a six Wald bracket then I could expect the Wald players alone to eat up about 1-4 hours of setup time alone. And that's before factoring in that I'd need to wrangle all the other players in the bracket who are going to doubtlessly wander off rather than watch Wald 6C glitch, that each player would want to set buttons and check them, and that I'd need to run all the other matches in the bracket on the same two setups too.

 

If for no other reason than a complete 6-4 grand finals loser reset win would take 45 minutes of pure play time alone.

[nadakaineko]

Yeah, this is definitely an oversight -- should be banned. It doesn't add anything to the character (again, he was already evaluated as top tier BEFORE the infinite was discovered) and the infinite deals ZERO damage and it's only utility is to run down the timer. There should be a bit of lenience towards determining if a player should be DQ'd if doing this - perhaps allow a player to to the dead body throw 3 times before a DQ would be in order. That determines both intent to perform the glitch and intent to continue.

 

Re: it's in the game so let it rock - there are numerous reasons as to why it most likely wasn't patched out for console: the final build for the game was most likely completed months before the game's commercial release with this oversight in there. It wasn't game breaking, so it was left in (because to modify their final code, FB would have had to pay ASW additional fees to change it before launch) but I'm *positive* it will be addressed in the new loktest version of UNI which is coming out shortly and will make it's way to console soon thereafter.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Ban it. There's nothing more boring than seeing top play filled with infinites.

[HKSpadez]

Ban it. There's nothing more boring than seeing top play filled with infinites.

 

not 100% true. marvel is still hype.

[jk, ban it lol]