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TeeJay

The How and What regarding thinking in matches and adaptation

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Hello FGC community, I apologize if this is in the wrong thread. 

 

I'm SaxPlayaTJ on PSN so quite a few of you may have played me since BBCT. I used to main Litchi for a while but have been playing Tsubaki mostly as of late. I am very aware of my playing flaws overall but I want some feedback on a subject that's been baffling me. I am considering also that the effort in fighting games may come a bit more naturally to some than others-- I'm not sure if people consider that at all. 

 

I'm curious how high-level players with solid fundamentals think during a match. I'm an early professional composer (doing a lot of publication stuff) and faculty adjunct on his way to grad school (I took some time to startup a professional career) so I'm used to niche analyzing and really picking out details in regards to overall form regarding music, blah blah. However, I don't think my knowledge in fighting games match my practical knowledge when I play in matches.

 

As a solid, experienced and even high-level player, how do you approach the cerebral game in a match? What do you prioritize to be most efficient? Are you very proactive, passive, or a mix? How do you think when they're losing and baffled, how do you think in neutral, how are you thinking in regards to your pressure habits, your opponent's habits, etc? Someone told me, whiff a grab on purpose and see if they try to grab back-- I haven't even considered something like that. 

 

Moreover, how much are you thinking? I used to think I wasn't contemplating these things enough but someone suggested that I may be over-thinking, hence why I sometimes play better when distracted. 

 

How general are things considered? I'm wondering if the correct approach is to only adapt to what i'm doing wrong and go, you could have done this here and move on. That seems basic, however I'm not sure how anyone gets to yomi level 3 that way.

I've found myself stuck in Tsubaki's pressure strings since it's necessary to see how people are respecting you or not. I've been mostly addressing what I am doing wrong instead of what the opponent is trying to do to me. Now I'm thinking that I was way too focused on that and it's probably just a minor problem. 

I'm actually baffled how the TSB Uniel players get headway on their characters in 3 days. 

I assume you can only process so much so I wonder how the cerebral players approach these things.

 

I often do really dumb stuff like wakeup DP on percentage (like on multiple choice trying to figure out which answer is due to be used soon) and find out that my opponent backed just out of range. Obviously, maybe I should watch and react more there. 

 

I guess for example: I'm recently playing a match against a solid Amane player. 

 

I go into it thinking: I'm not gonna jump in neutral, I'm going to chase him down on the ground and mirror his air movement, I'm gonna watch out for direction changes and keep up accordingly. Additionally, I'll try to mask my forward approaches and consider DPing if he's overhead. 

 

But typically, mid-match and I thinking about things as detailed as you have to show 5B (D) dash command grab. 5B>6B, you don't frame trap enough, specifically in realtime trying to figure out what's the best option (which I find not possible consistently), how I play off of 5C so it's not a predicable punish or a loss momentum. At one point, I've made a least of 25 strings. I literally wrote them down and tried to memorize them for easy mix and match. This didn't work too well. I got the idea from StormLocke's Robo-Ky tutorial and his 7 basic block strings which helped me get into the character. 

 

My Litchi in the past was very impromptu and was based on show something and vary it the second time. I played her mostly as a  keep away character in neutral unlike what's probably her best gameplan. 

 

I find TS Sabin's netplay vids interesting because he has a likable habit of thinking aloud (self-commentary). Because of this, it gives some insight to what he's thinking about mid-match and how he's approaching things that the opponent is doing. 

I'm aware that I'm just throwing out a bunch of stuff. I haven't even mentioned how to get better at neutral, process it or practice it. 

 

I wonder if I've made fighting games more complicated then it should be or am I going about it wrong. 

 

MaC, give me your knowledge. 

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Hmmmm. Well I'm certainly not a high-lvl player, I've play online since CT and I was a solid mid-range player online back in extend though I mained Tager which requires a lot of reading at that level and up. Haven't played as much CP online as I'd like.

 

But for me when I play Tager I try to intimidate the other guy and try different trap setups when I can. Or if they are particularly vulnerable to a certain setup I'll use it until they figure out how to get out. Also if I see that the other guy is highly aggressive then that often makes them more reckless and eager to tech so I'll try to capitalize on exploiting that. Were if they are more careful and patient the match is usually much harder.

 

Honestly it's pretty much textbook play for any Tager player, just watch the guy's habits and tendencies and try to exploit them. That knowledge is what you should apply to any character you play really it's just that it often matters a bit more on Tager. You also have to keep an eye on your meters and know what you should spend it on. 

 

Hopefully that was helpful and not just me rambling.  :sweatdrop:

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Thanks for the response. I guess the overall point was to encourage discussion on the topic rather than feel the need to respond directly. I'm trying to form some consensus from everyone else's thoughts. 

 

I suppose Tager players become really adapt at a read-and-react style cognitively. I bet that develops naturally when the opponent is often the aggressor. 

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Pretty much. It's also why I enjoy playing arakune as messing with the opponent's expectations is also very important for his evasion and cross-ups. And both characters have amazing comeback potential if you play the mind games right.

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I've been trying to think of where to start. This is like asking "how do I get good." There's no magic bullet; you just shave away at the problem like peeling away layers of an onion.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is to play thoughtfully. Don't just go in there and flail away and hope something happens. When you get hit by an overhead, make a mental note how it happened and try to look for it next time. Then after the match go into training mode and think of ways to deal with that scenario. Then try to implement it in real matches.

 

Do that every time you play, and you'll slowly start getting better at dealing with it.

 

Also, there's another word for what you call "overthinking." It's hesitation. It comes from lacking confidence in the situation. You're not sure what to do, and by the time you've settled on something, the opportunity has slipped away. This is from lacking experience in the specific scenario. The more experience you have dealing with a situation and all the possible forks it can take, the easier it is to have the solution ingrained as a reflex that you can use with minimal mental investment.

 

It's just like learning how to do a combo when you're first learning how to play. At first, you have to give it 100% of your attention. Then eventually it becomes muscle memory, freeing up your attention to focus on the particulars of the match. But if you start overthinking it during the combo, your conscious mind overrides your reflexes, creating hesitation, and can cause you to drop it. It's the same way with dealing with these situations. (Incidentally, that's how tourney nerves work. You get taken out of your element because you're self conscious, and things you normally do without thinking about it gets relegated to a conscious decision because you're questioning everything.)

 

I'm not saying to auto pilot or not THINK about them, just that you want to be so familiar with the options and situations that you don't get caught off guard. Once you do that, you can tune it to the particulars of the specific player.

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I'm not saying to auto pilot or not THINK about them, just that you want to be so familiar with the options and situations that you don't get caught off guard. Once you do that, you can tune it to the particulars of the specific player.

 

Actually, I think a lot of that IS what you're saying;  It's just autopiloting the RIGHT decisions, so you can think about stuff in advance instead of NOW.   The fact that you are, at some level, still autopiloting is why sometimes really stupid stuff works on really high level players; They're too busy thinking of what oki setup you're going to do after this combo and then you do some completely lame reset thing that isn't covered by their autopilot because it's such a bad idea, they have a "Wait, what?!" moment, and get hit.  This does happen.    However, then that thing is brought back to the list of what autopilot "knows about" and won't work again for a long time.

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I'm not saying to auto pilot or not THINK about them, just that you want to be so familiar with the options and situations that you don't get caught off guard. Once you do that, you can tune it to the particulars of the specific player.

Thanks for the response. It's not suppose to be an easy question. 

 

Yeah, situational recognition or presence-of-mind is very important. I'm starting to become more proactive at finding solutions in match situations immediately, especially in a set. I think it's interesting that it deters you from thinking in the present or future as much. I remember you saying you take a mental record every time you get hit. Lord Knight has mentioned being aware that x is now on the table which is a tad harder to prioritize in certain situations than one would assume, I guess.  If one does x three times, you expect y sooner or later right-- the suspense... 

 

So as a Haku player, what are your thought priorities in a match? Or are you even aware of that? I understand the difficulty of answer, especially when I have to tell college students how to analyze something that I can break down instantaneously on sight-- That's a Secondary Germanic Augmented Sixth Chord son-- recognition of details is not something that develops similarly. 

 

Actually, I think a lot of that IS what you're saying;  It's just autopiloting the RIGHT decisions, so you can think about stuff in advance instead of NOW.   The fact that you are, at some level, still autopiloting is why sometimes really stupid stuff works on really high level players; They're too busy thinking of what oki setup you're going to do after this combo and then you do some completely lame reset thing that isn't covered by their autopilot because it's such a bad idea, they have a "Wait, what?!" moment, and get hit.  This does happen.    However, then that thing is brought back to the list of what autopilot "knows about" and won't work again for a long time.

Yeah, that's the conclusion I was picking up from several people. I guess that's how I come up with stuff occasionally like whiffing a jab at max 5B range and following up with 22D for a counter-hit in the moment by playing more freely. hmm, auto-pilot seems to increase raw reactions or but makes you a lot more susceptible to be taking by surprise, though thinking and being focused aren't quite the same things either. 

 

I remember playing a 19 game set against Errol and I felt like I was doing okay the first 5 games or so. After that, I became mentally lethargic and fatigued. I think I let myself get to the point where I was thinking about way too many minute details to get back in the game rather than just a few things. I guess it's a fine line between focused and "loose"-- rely on instinct and make cognitive adjustments where needed. 

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Yeah; There's definitely a sense of "playing loose" that is really valuable.  I think over time (in a given session) my play tends to get more rigid and generally worse.

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Yeah; There's definitely a sense of "playing loose" that is really valuable.  I think over time (in a given session) my play tends to get more rigid and generally worse.

 

It's generally the opposite in my case. It usually takes me a good set or two for me to warm up since I often start out sluggish.

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Well, I usually need a little bit of warmup, but that's only a match or two to get the execution going;  After that, I play well for... 5-10 matches, tops, then I start to get stressed/rigid.

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I think this is something depends on the player honestly; some players always plan their next move and act accordingly, while others just do what works at any given situation and adapt on the fly. The former type get thrown off when their line of thinking of thinking is disrupted, while the latter tend to get blown up when they can't adapt enough.

 

 

 

I'm kind of the latter; I've tried to plan ahead, but then I feel I'm not having that much fun and I'd much rather improvise. So I just generally spend my time in Training Mode coming up with new shit to try and try to get it in a match, with varying success.

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Actually, I think a lot of that IS what you're saying;  It's just autopiloting the RIGHT decisions, so you can think about stuff in advance instead of NOW.   The fact that you are, at some level, still autopiloting is why sometimes really stupid stuff works on really high level players; They're too busy thinking of what oki setup you're going to do after this combo and then you do some completely lame reset thing that isn't covered by their autopilot because it's such a bad idea, they have a "Wait, what?!" moment, and get hit.  This does happen.    However, then that thing is brought back to the list of what autopilot "knows about" and won't work again for a long time.

That's kind of the opposite of what I was saying. :P

Autopiloting is when you just run through a flowchart without paying attention to the other player, like you're in training mode.

I'm talking about just being experienced enough with the different situations you'll be presented, and with your options in it, so you won't get caught off guard and hesitate. Like when someone IADs at you and you anti air them. When I was starting BB, I wouldn't even register that somebody was IADing or jumping in on me until it was too late. Now though I've seen it so many times that I'm able to focus distinctly on it and 6A without even thinking about it. My mind and body act as one in this case, without having to pause and ponder what the right move is, or worry about the execution.

Now apply that to situations that are more complicated. If you've mapped out all your options and the scenarios they can be useful in, then you'll have a greater presence of mind and clarity when you're in the actual match.

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That's kind of the opposite of what I was saying. :P

Autopiloting is when you just run through a flowchart without paying attention to the other player, like you're in training mode.

I'm talking about just being experienced enough with the different situations you'll be presented, and with your options in it, so you won't get caught off guard and hesitate. Like when someone IADs at you and you anti air them. When I was starting BB, I wouldn't even register that somebody was IADing or jumping in on me until it was too late. Now though I've seen it so many times that I'm able to focus distinctly on it and 6A without even thinking about it. My mind and body act as one in this case, without having to pause and ponder what the right move is, or worry about the execution.

Now apply that to situations that are more complicated. If you've mapped out all your options and the scenarios they can be useful in, then you'll have a greater presence of mind and clarity when you're in the actual match.

 

Sounds like we have completely different definitions of "autopilot" :P

 

But the example you cite supports MY definition. This is why it's possible to bait AAs by double jumping - people's autopilot kicks in and says "He's jumping, now is when I AA him!" and then the double jump screws everything up. It's only when your autopilot gets good enough that it reacts to "all" situations "correctly"....

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Well, you have to see what they do first. If they start introducing other variables into the equation then you just take that into account the next time and watch for it, or make a judgment call.

If by "autopilot" you mean "can react to situations without having to think about them" then that's good, but autopilot is used as a pejorative because it's specifically supposed to be playing like a windup doll AI that just runs through the same pattern, rather than reacting to the specific action before them with presence of mind because they've trained for it and have seen it so many times.

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I don't think auto-piloting is necessarily a bad thing, because if it's just about going on a set path....doesn't it make sense to learn to go down another path? 

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I think this is something depends on the player honestly; some players always plan their next move and act accordingly, while others just do what works at any given situation and adapt on the fly. The former type get thrown off when their line of thinking of thinking is disrupted, while the latter tend to get blown up when they can't adapt enough.

 

 

 

I'm kind of the latter; I've tried to plan ahead, but then I feel I'm not having that much fun and I'd much rather improvise. So I just generally spend my time in Training Mode coming up with new shit to try and try to get it in a match, with varying success.

I am wondering if it was vastly different between players or not? I think I am a plan ahead type, but sometimes I can get into the Sirlin obsessed category because I expect a certain outcome or want to do something specific (I know why that's not good). I do recognize that I have the bad habit of messing something up and wanting to fix it immediately rather than organically. Perhaps that's how I reprogram changes. I have been trying to focus on the latter style and play with less expectations which seems to be helping more. Instead of saying, "I was caught by that or I need to deal with that," I've been trying to quickly find some solution, even if a little haphazard, which is different than just noting that x happened and to be aware-- but x happened and I'm gonna do y if i even sniff it. It sounds trivial or obvious, but not always in the line of fire I guess. 

 

I bet some people's autopilot is still more distinctly complex than others. 

 

When I am loose, i tend to be more creative but less adaptive I guess. If I'm too loose, I'll do some yolo stuff. 

If I restrict myself too much, I become a rock and can't be proactive. 

I'm sure presence of mind suffices that. 

 

It's interesting how some players intentionally try not to play a certain style while others have very distinct styles. I'm sure their thinking influences this. I haven't even gotten into the metagame. 

 

Fighting games do remind me of jazz improv in some ways, or any really technical improv where many calculations and technical adjustments are made. A few get so good at it that it becomes second-nature. 

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well I'm certainly not a fast thinking in matches, in most case it is due to experience and auto-piloting a counter is the essence of high level matches. Like for example, you may need to come up with a few option before a matches and remember those option. A good player can still lose if he doesn't know the match up,

 

I guess the only thing I'm thinking if predicting what my opponent can do, like say if they manage a to block an overhead whats my next option, or if they are using DP, or likes to barrier. adaption comes at this point when you can make the correct read and apply the right counter and of course the counters are already thought of before a game usually. the next part is thinking is your opponent reacting or just reading your option. if its a reaction you can add more option to decrease anticipation, although if someone could truly react then you might want to opt not to use that attack.

 

Lastly, it is probably better to forgo thinking about what you are doing and pay more attention to what your opponent is doing instead. Anyway that is just my theory.

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Man this article is like exactly what I said. Awesome.

Also I like this image.

stackreduction.png

Good article.

Yeah, I just read it and thought it was pretty solid. The beginner stack chart is pretty hilarious but I can relate with my crappy CT Ragna. 

 

The article discusses auto-piloting mainly in the way Airk referred to it, though most do use it in the negaitve way. 

 

There is a SF4 vid explaining the same stack which I used in arcade mode a few weeks ago to work on fundamentals. lol, I don't really play much SF but it's sort of how I casually play it (bs Adon/Ryu etc). I did it to work on spacing though I admit applying it to Tsubaki, unlike Litchi/Jin gave me a tad bit more problems. 

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"Optimal play" has not and cannot be proven to be related to any particular value on this subjective spectrum of autopilot vs. 'looseness'. There's no wrong way to play video games. Believe in your play, perspective and ability to improve (in regards to the former 2).

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A TL;DR response to all of this:

Think about what you can do
Think about what your character can do (which basically is the first one but whatever)
Think about what the opponent's character can do in all situations. 

Sometimes people go nuts, sometimes people are more controlled. Sometimes people have a really strong offense but extremely lack defense (this is really common holy shit) and vice versa.

Most if not all of this boils down to your awareness and decision making which flies back up to my first sentence. 

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Knowledge is power. It would be quite useful to get familiar with ALL fighting game terms. You never know what you could apply to any given situation... Unless you actually know.

The more you have to play the player and matchup and not your character or game, which both should already be an extension of your mental capabilities, the better. If you don't know how to make the scissors to beat the paper, you're going to get wrecked mercilessly.

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A TL;DR response to all of this:

Think about what you can do

Think about what your character can do (which basically is the first one but whatever)

Think about what the opponent's character can do in all situations. 

Sometimes people go nuts, sometimes people are more controlled. Sometimes people have a really strong offense but extremely lack defense (this is really common holy shit) and vice versa.

Most if not all of this boils down to your awareness and decision making which flies back up to my first sentence. 

 

I think (heh) that this is the opposite of a lot of the advice given here - you need to be able to NOT THINK about most things, because you really don't have a lot of time during the match and things are happening very fast, so it's crucial to offload as much thinking as possible so you can saving your thinking for the critical stuff and/or getting to Yomi Level 3. :P

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The following  is a good read, and relevant to the discussion. http://kayin.pyoko.org/?p=2047

 

This article is pretty interesting.

 

But yeah, @Crossfire. Thinking too much of what to do can end up making you do nothing at all when the time comes. Having too many ideas in your head at once can make you unsure/overburden you and start making you do random/reckless crap.

 

 

Image is pretty accurate: okizeme.png

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