[UNIEL] Carmine Matchups Discussion

[Tigre]

Welcome to the Carmine Matchups Thread!

Welcome to the Carmine Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

[DaRealZil]

Time to stop being a lurker on Dustloop and make my first post. Mainly because I really have NO idea what to do in the matchup against Yuzuriha. I've been able to catch a decent amount of Yuzu's mix-up game with j.B and j.C. Other then that I have no idea, any tips would be much appreciated.  

[Magaki]

Matchups analysis:

Akatsuki

Byakuya

Carmine

Chaos

Eltnum

Gordeau
Tomo009 (Partial Analysis)

Hilda

Hyde

Linne
Tomo009 (Ideas)

Merkava
SoulGuitarist (Ideas)
Killey (Complete Analysis)

Nanase

Orie

Seth

Vatista
Magaki (Partial analysis)

Waldstein

Yuzuriha

[Istillduno]

Soo how are people approaching Vatista?

 

I feel that we might be able to do something if we can get some puddles near her, but I can't seem to even B+C without getting it stuffed, looking like trying to bulldog slowly towards her is the only way to get started at the moment.

[jo-p]

Truthfully I'm not sure how Carmine advances on someone that can lame him out. I ran a pretty long set with Wolfkrone (playing HIlda) and it was by far the most tedious thing I've experienced thus far. Best thing I could do was just walkup and block until he made a mistake or ended up in the corner. 6B worked alright but chucking them fullscreen isn't an answer, especially since Carmine's health depletes after each use.

[Magaki]

Haha, I like how when I mentioned before that Yuzu's zoning was quite honest compared to other characters, I was thinking about Vatista's and Hilda's.

First with Vatista, you need to keep in mind that she needs to commit to any special she wants to do because all of her specials requires a specific charge.
With 46, she gets an orb.
With 64, she gets the beam.
With 28, she gets the flashkick.
With 82, the divekick.
And she gets a bomb by holding a button.

Understanding that is important because it will allow you to know what she can do in given situations. Obviously, after using a special, she can still charge during it. That's how you can do orb>beam right away with her.
It's important because if you see her standing, you can be certain she won't be able to do the flashkick right away. If you see her walking forward, the beam might be coming but you're certain she won't be able to use the orb. Etc.

Observing what Vatista in neutral is doing is vital for the neutral game. Once you get that, your job becomes much easier.

As for her zoning itself, it's good but not strong enough to make you unable to advance. Playing safe against her and slowly getting in isn't really a problem. Watch out though for the bombs in neutral. If she can force you to block one and she's not too far, she can get in and start pressuring you. And trust me, her 50/50 can be a real pain to deal with.

So basically your gameplan is simple, if you're fullscreen, you would prefer to walk forward or dash block while looking at Vatista in order to know what she might do until you're midrange. Shielding projectiles isn't a bad idea to get GRD. You can also throw out a 22C once in a while if you're predicting that the Vatista will press buttons. Throwing out 6Bs isn't a bad choice though because unless you get hit during the startup, 6B will cancel with a zoning special. If you manage to get a puddle close to her, you can start threatening her with 623B/tk 236B/22B and get a knockdown allowing you to get in.

Midrange though, Carmine's normals and 236A/B completely dominates so make sure to abuse them. You can also try to beat reversal happy Vatista's with assault>j236B. The fact that it blows Carmine backwards while throwing it is really good in that matchup (compared to, let's say, Gordeau or Merkava where it's not really a great idea at this range.)
Close range, Carmine also has the advantage thanks to his normals. Flash kick is still a huge threat though because of its amazing hitbox so always watch out for that.

Summary: The matchup requires a lot of patience from the Carmine player and the closer he is, the higher his chances to win. Problem is that the bombs might give huge troubles to him thanks to their blockstun/hitstun allowing Vatista to get in. Her pressure can be quite difficult to deal with though. But obviously, so is Carmine once he gets in.
Therefore, being careful with midrange and fullscreen with Carmine while understanding all her options is the most important of the matchup. Neutral changes radically however if Carmine manages to get a puddle close to her but you will need to take risks in order to have that puddle there.

As for Hilda, well, I didn't play any Hilda strong enough to properly understand the matchup. What I usually do is to watch what they do and vary between respecting and getting in with air assault/dashing forward. Carmine's zoning do feel kind of useless in that matchup though so it's better to be patient and wait for the right opportunity to get in while shielding what she throws at you. If you're tired of her pressing buttons, you can just throw a 22C and get in for free this way.
Keep in mind though that her hitboxes aren't as great as it looks like. She doesn't have that many moves that cover both the ground and the air with a range worth mentioning. Well, against Carmine at least.
But it depends of the kind of Hilda you deal with. Against Hildas who rather prefer to turtle and punish any attempts to get in, it's better to throw a 6B and use the puddle to your advantage. Against her, everytime you activate a puddle with a special, even though it might trade, it will always be in your advantage.

But yeah, I really need to try having some games with a Hilda worth mentioning. Don't have any in my local scene and I didn't meet any good one with netplay so it's possible that I'm completely wrong about her.
I would however suggest you to watch some Hilda vs Carmine matches (I think Notsu is a safe bet here), pick up ideas and try them out against the Hilda player you mentioned. Tell us if you found anything that work. Hopefully, a Hilda player will reply here and tell us whether it's a good idea or not.

[Killey]

Are there any punishes to Gordeau's Grim Reaper at the various distances you can block it? I'm still waiting on my copy of the game to arrive but have been playing the game on other people's consoles so I'm unable to training mode this myself and would like to know for future reference. 

[Villainous]

Are there any punishes to Gordeau's Grim Reaper at the various distances you can block it? I'm still waiting on my copy of the game to arrive but have been playing the game on other people's consoles so I'm unable to training mode this myself and would like to know for future reference. 

Its really unsafe so you can do whatever you want really. 2C 6B 2C 236A etc combos are usually the go-to punish for me. 

[SoulGuitarist]

What is everyone's thoughts on the VS Merkava match-up? I always find myself struggling once Merkava keeps his distance with his spaghetti arms. Carmine's 6B is also not useful mostly in this match-up in my opinion. (Unless if your up close mid-combo of course). Merkava's command grab frames are invincible after his arm extends the slightest which I think is the most difficult thing in this match-up. Mostly because it's safest way to put blood puddle from distance. 6B won't hit him unless if you think ahead and throw it before he does command grab. you could do j.6B to place it and move it forward with B+C at times then 236A/B but even so, Carmine is still vulnerable during B+C animation. I feel unless Carmine can get up in Merkava's face at the start of the round and keep the pressure, This match is not in Carmine's favor at all. Once Merkava flys away, It's a pain getting back in. (Unless if you have a blood puddle set on each side of the screen) You could probably get in slightly if you have blood already placed but it won't by much. Does anyone have any advice for players to improve VS Merkava match-up or anything people might want to add that I might have missed?

[jo-p]

Just in case anyone DIDN'T know about this yet. www.chainshift.com is super legit! Simply hit database and search Carmine vs your character of choice and it'll pull up vids off YouTube and streams I believe. Great way to get some sort of insight on how to play vs someone that might be giving you trouble.

[SoulGuitarist]

Oh wow! Thanks for the site recommendation! It was really helpful in learning how to handle the merkava match-up! Only problem is searching through long streams for the particular match. I'm still having trouble a little bit but the site really helped alot with the particular match-up. I think though it will also be a good way for people to experiment with other things and possibly find more ways to handle different match-ups too! :D

[Twinkerbellium]

I'm having a hard time against Linne. She just rushes me down harder than I can, Then again, I'm a mega-scrub so it's probably just me.

[Tomo009]

I'm having a hard time against Linne. She just rushes me down harder than I can, Then again, I'm a mega-scrub so it's probably just me.

I've had some luck hard zoning her out, it seems difficult for her to roll through TK pinwheels and 6B, so you can generally keep her out until she jumps into a pinwheel of blocks one a little close or something so you can take momentum. 

 

I don't have too much trouble with Linne pressure though, I'm mostly watching for kuuga > dash throw, her mixups outside that don't feel too scary, I think the matchup is probably in Carmine's favour but I don't know I have the experience to say that.

[jo-p]

First time playing a good gordeau. Holy Jesus Christmas this feels impossible! His pokes seem to always out range ours, his cmnd throw is madness and don't get me started on GRIM REAPAAHH. If he's dealing the pressure I feel carmine is done for. Maybe I just lack the experience here but I had absolutely no answers for this guy

[Tomo009]

First time playing a good gordeau. Holy Jesus Christmas this feels impossible! His pokes seem to always out range ours, his cmnd throw is madness and don't get me started on GRIM REAPAAHH. If he's dealing the pressure I feel carmine is done for. Maybe I just lack the experience here but I had absolutely no answers for this guy

Played a few local Gordeaus, don't know if they are the caliber of those you fought, but I've had quite a bit of time against him nevertheless.

 

I feel Gordeau has 2 fairly major weak points, full screen and about 2-4 character spacings away from him.

 

At full screen he has absolutely nothing and we have 6B to get puddles on him. It's not a huge thing but it does mean you can pressure him from that range and make him uneasy.

 

At that 2-4 character spacing things are a bit more complicated, but it is by far my favourite place to fight Gordeau. There is really only a few things to keep in mind at this range, don't jump (duh) unless you just blocked something and he is definitely in recovery and protect your ankles from slides. He has slide here, sure, but he doesn't really want to be using it because it is inside the range slide will give him - frames so he is handing you pressure. He might go for [C] but you can react to it, block and punish if he doesn't cancel it. He might go for 5C but again he is handing over to you if he does this and you block it.

 

From this range I feel Carmine's 2C handles Gordeau pretty convincingly and if you get a puddle down you can pressure him much easier than you could Merkava for example. As long as you are watching for EX grim reaper and command grab I feel Carmine can control the match if you stay in this space.

 

I certainly wouldn't say it's Carmine's favour, because Gordeau is Gordeau and you never want to be caught in the air against him, but I've had a fair bit of experience in this matchup and find that I can generally play pretty effectively if I'm patient and get myself into the right spaces.

 

Goredeau's pressure also isn't unending, as long as you watch for those damn step overheads he likes to use to bop you and reset pressure as well as command grabs, there are usually pretty big gaps in his pressure to counterhit him or at least start up your own pressure, I REALLY like using 22A in blockstrings against Gordeau, if they want to press a button afterwards, you can usually counterhit them out of it with a 5B or 2C depending on spacing.

[jo-p]

Here is a few replays i saved from the other night vs Wolfkrone (hilda main) i'll leave it here for both matchup advice and criticism of my own play. Don't be too mean lol it was 2am when we decided to play. I'll edit this post later with things i was aiming for little things I learned about the matchup. 

http://youtu.be/yj_Mq9FzC0c?list=UU9QX1REAW6JwJ7hPJPBf6Pw

[mAceOfHearts]

I'm having a lot of trouble catching Byakuya when in neutral.

He can stay in the air for so long, and his mobility is through the rough. I sometimes place my 236A/B in the way of his jumps out of pure luck, but I can't predict his trajectory well enough to do it regularly.

I also have no idea how to punish his 236X-236X-214X. I can punish 236X-214X since he hangs right in front of my face for a second, but he goes way too high for me to reach him after if he does the cancel after the second rekka. It just seems like he gets to infinitely do Stuff-236X-236X-214X-(Places one airborne net and one grounded net)-Land-Stuff-Repeat.

I can only block his mix-up for so long before his damn force function gets me.

[jo-p]

I'm having a lot of trouble catching Byakuya when in neutral.

He can stay in the air for so long, and his mobility is through the rough. I sometimes place my 236A/B in the way of his jumps out of pure luck, but I can't predict his trajectory well enough to do it regularly.

I also have no idea how to punish his 236X-236X-214X. I can punish 236X-214X since he hangs right in front of my face for a second, but he goes way too high for me to reach him after if he does the cancel after the second rekka. It just seems like he gets to infinitely do Stuff-236X-236X-214X-(Places one airborne net and one grounded net)-Land-Stuff-Repeat.

I can only block his mix-up for so long before his damn force function gets me.

This. To be honest in my experience playing vs kuya I just go crazy from the jump and keep him on his back. All the tricks come out the bag until he dies lol I never want to deal with his mixups especially as carmine. Sorry I know that's not much "advice" but its just what I do haha.

Anyone got any tips vs vatista? Everyone online does some really scrubby stuff and just camps in the top far corner and shoots fireballs all day. 22c won't even catch that high.

[mAceOfHearts]

This. To be honest in my experience playing vs kuya I just go crazy from the jump and keep him on his back. All the tricks come out the bag until he dies lol I never want to deal with his mixups especially as carmine. Sorry I know that's not much "advice" but its just what I do haha.

Anyone got any tips vs vatista? Everyone online does some really scrubby stuff and just camps in the top far corner and shoots fireballs all day. 22c won't even catch that high.

 

Just bum rush him. Got it.

As for Vatista: Shield all day, Chains Shift, 41236D. I've yet to fight a scrubby Vatista, but this is the strategy I'd use against one.

[jo-p]

How do you guys deal with Hyde & Nanase pressure? Aside from learning to block the flowchart; are their any tricks carmine can pull off in particular to help lessen the load?

[MahouShoujoA]

anytime they reverse beat into whiff 5a/2a and such. I like to buffer 214 and hit c if i see them try another long/slow normal.

[SoulGuitarist]

With alot of Nanase players, I always notice once you set a distance between and you have some blood puddles set, they usually do 236A/B (or at least that is what I think the input is. It's the projectile) to try to force you to block. However, if they do j.236A, you can catch them with 236A and have one of the puddles catch her then start pressure. With all honesty, that is how every Nanase match went for me. As for Hyde, No idea.

[Killey]

Trying to post up everything I know about the Merkava match-up and hope people can add to it.

 

vs Merkava:

 

This is a slightly bad match-up for Carmine and it's completely based on whoever wins the neutral game in order to start their momentum though the same can be said for many characters. The reason this match up can be difficult is that Merkava generally wins the neutral game against Carmine because he out ranges him with his long range pokes, his movement options, and his ability to keep Carmine's zoning tools in check with his 214x special. It requires Carmine to play extremely patient until he can find an opening to start his offense. Even while on the offensive, Merkava has a good reversal option with 236C, that is difficult to punish, which can stop Carmine from running his pressure game. There's a lot of apprehension and baiting required when applying pressure and mix ups against Merkava, while Merkava doesn't need to apply the same apprehension due Carmine's lack of a good reversal. It becomes difficult to find a spot to counter Merkava's offense once he gets going. That being said, the match isn't one sided at all and is very much winnable being, at worst, a 6-4 match up in Merkava's favour.

 

Neutral Game: 

 

Merkava's grounded neutral game revolves around his long range pokes via 5B, 5C, 4C, 6C, and 214x.

 

5B - It's max range is when the round starts and is fairly quick. He can follow up with 5BB for additional hits. It's air unblockable, unless you shield guard. During the neutral game Merkava will usually whiff 5A after wards to reduce the recovery of 5B. It's a really good poking tool and an annoyance in his pressure strings, especially when your cornered.

 

5C - Really long range poke about 3/4 screen but has significant recovery. If you anticipate on this poke you can jump assault over it and either get j.C starter or a j.6B starter depending on your spacing. 

 

4C - This is one of Merkava's overheads. It's slow on start up and has enough of a visual cue to block on reaction. Merkava will typically use this at it's max range which is around the spacing of when the round begins. They'll also typically use this move when their pressure string has pushed them out some more. Depending on the spacing you can react with a 2C combo starter but this can be difficult if you're not really looking out for this attack.

 

6C - It has the same range as 5C but it reaches at a 45 degree angle instead of 5C's horizontal range. It's kind of an anti-air tool for Merkava at farther ranges but the recovery of this move is quite lengthy. If you see them whiff this move you can either punish with 22C (if you react fast enough) or you can use the opportunity to set up blood pools with 6B or dash in to close the distance. 

 

214X - Merkava extends his arm and on hit causes a grab-like animation that brings Merkava to your current position. The start up of this attack is really fast. It reaches full screen with the hitbox being his arms and the hurtbox is where Merkava is standing. The A and C variations reach horizontally while the B version reaches at a 45 degree angle and acts as an anti-air tool. The A and C versions will beat your 6B if timed early enough, forcing you to be careful with your 6B usage. It has decent enough recovery and can be jump assault over, which is a good time to either do j.6B or j.236A/B to get some blood pools on the field. Don't get too jump handy because the B variant can anti-air you. On hit, Merkava has all the time in the world to confirm into a chain shift combo and start his offensive pressure game.

 

While he's flying he'll primarily use his j.B, j.C, glide, and air fireball. If you've played Guilty Gear then you can relate this to Eddie/Zato's flying neutral game. 

 

j.B - Merkava extends an arm out that has absolutely ridiculous range but is only a good poking tool when he's flying. It controls a lof horizontal space so you have to respect this normal when you see Merkava in the air. You can't challenge this normal at all and it will out prioritize you in the air unless you can position yourself above Merkava. 

 

j.C - Merkava spins both arms in a 360 and it does cover the area around him. It makes it difficult to counter attack if you find yourself underneath Merkava.

 

j.214x - This is Merkava air fireball and controls the space underneath him. The A version shoots it in diagonal  down angle giving you some room to maneuver around it. The B version shoots the fireball at a more horizontal angle allowing you to dash or crouch under it depending on your spacing. 

 

From full screen, you need to play really patient and remain outside of his normal ranges. It's really important to set up blood pools on the stage in order to control Merkava's movements during the match otherwise you don't have an effective means to close the gap if the Merkava players decides to play a spacing game. You have to pick your spots and your methods to setting up blood pools because Merkava 214A/C will beat 6B, 214[A/B], and 236A/B from full screen. If you block 214A you can safely throw a 6B immediately after wards as it'll beat a second 214A attempt if they try it. If they opt to fly after the first one then you're still at full screen neutral but you don't have an optimal means to approach Merkava ground-to-air. You can use Merkava's flight time to set up blood pools via 6B, 214[A/B], or 236A/B. 236A/B is good at controlling the space in front of you in case he tries to glide in recklessly. The 214[A/B] route is pretty good to set up defensive/offensive options but is a lot slower and riskier.

 

Once you have blood pools behind Merkava and in front of you then you have more tools to keep Merkava in check during the neutral game. 22A/B or 623A/B while the blood pools are around Merkava are ways to prevent him from abusing his 214x moves from full screen. 623A/B with a blood pool behind Merkava is a decent option, as it can counter hit him during the start up of his pokes or 214x special, which allows you to convert into a dash 2C combo. Merkava can fly out of this range so you have to pick your timings carefully but if he tries to glide into you, you can use 623A/B with blood pools around you as a means to anti-air him but the start up of 623A/B is slow so it's only effective from farther distances.

 

If Merkava is flying and he's at the top of the screen you have 0 normals that will reach him. The only attacks that will reach Merkava at this height is your Infinite Words (41236D), Infinite Words EXS (ABCD), and a j.236C at the peak of your jump. 41236D is actually a really good punish for his flying but he can block it in the air and it's also a situational punish since it requires 200% meter or 100% for the Veil Off. Other wise, if you're full screen away with a flying Merkava then you can use 3C on reaction to the glide to anti-air him. If you've got blood pools on the other side of the screen then buffer 623A/B after 3C to convert into a combo. You can also wait until Merkava flies lower to the ground and attempt to anti-air with 22C (air unblockable) him but be aware that he can fly back up and avoid it altogether.

 

Offense:

 

When you're able to close the gap on Merkava most players have a tendency to try and fly and glide to the other side of the screen to reset to neutral and avoid your offensive game altogether. If you anticipate on this you can use 3C, 3B, or 6C to blow them during the initial start up of their flight. 3C is generally the best option because of it's giant hit box but a well timed 3B will net you a combo into oki options. 6C by itself is good to swat them out of the air if you react quickly enough while 66C on approach will cause a hard knock down and gives you OTG options if you have blood pools around. 

 

When you're pressuring Merkava you have to play with one part match up knowledge and one part player knowledge. Carmine has a ton of pressure and mix up tools to open people up but some will only work if the opponent is afraid to push buttons. If they have a tendency to mash 2B or 2C you could face a counter hit into a big punish after wards. Just like in any match up you need to vary up your pressure strings so that when you attempt these tactics you end up outside of his 2B/2C range. If you want to play it safe, only apply your mix up game when you've got them blocking a 236A/B/C to force them to guess on a high/low/throw mix up. Don't be afraid to sacrifice some health to create continuous pressure with the infinite block string of 236A, 214[A/B]. You'll want to insert a 5A/5B inbetween the 236A and 214[A] to prevent them from flying out. This string gives you a pretty advantageous position because if they continue to block you'll have an opportunity to go for a mix up in between. If they panic and push buttons they'll eat a counter hit and you can covert into a combo and go into oki options after wards. The worst case scenario is that you force the opponent to use resources for a Guard Thrust or a timed Veil Off. If any of these are baited they'll eat a huge punish that leads into oki options after wards. 

 

Be careful with block strings involving 3C xx 22x, 623x, or 236x as Merkava can use his 236C as a reversal to blow through that. If you don't commit to the special cancel you'll be able to block the reversal after 3C but you've effectively ended your pressure. Using 5A/2A reverse gatlings are good ways to keep up the offense while maintaining safety against Merkava's reversal options. If you just straight block Merkava's 236C you cannot punish it after wards but Merkava is at slight frame disadvantage allowing you to start your pressure. Keep an eye on their meter, because if they have another bar they can do something gimmicky and do another 236C to catch buttons or throws. The way to punish Merkava's 236C on block is to shield guard the last hit and go into a 5A combo starter but this is extremely hard to time. If you anticipate on the 236C you can straight up counter it with Infinite Words (41236D) during the start up of the super. 

 

Defense: 

 

While on the defensive Merkava has a lot of tools to change things up with 2A, 2B, and 2C being his lows while his 4C, 3C and 66C are his overheads. You want to be careful with trying to counter poke against Merkava, as his 3C/66C causes him to do a flip which puts him off the ground before the attack. This attack will go over all of your normals and gives him a 3C/66C combo starter. While he's at frame disadvantage on block he can easily cancel into the air fireball to keep him safe but reset the match back to the neutral game that is in his favour due to his range. You generally want to shield guard his 2A and 2B's to push him outside of his 2C range, which can give you a whiff punish opportunity if you recognize it in time. If the Merkava player over commits and does 2CC, you can immediately punish with a 5B combo starter. Merkava's 2CC is not special cancel-able so he's completely committed to the attack.

 

The real issue when you're on the defensive is that Merkava can effectively keep you at bay while applying pressure through his gatling strings and flight that doesn't leave too many openings to counter poke. In general, block low against Merkava and react to the overheads because they are slow enough that you can react to them. If you're under heavy pressure you'll have to risk a Veil Off or Guard Thrust to reset to neutral.

 

Merkava's 22C throws down multiple worms that home in on you and then attack after a short period. If Merkava is hit, thrown, forced to block or tech a throw the worms will disappear. They are only used when he lands a corner combo to create offense by forcing you to flinch. They don't hit low so you can just focus on what Merkava is doing and react accordingly. Merkava has a mix up where he flies and waits for you to block a Worm and then he flies behind you to go for a cross over attack. The reason this mix up works is that once you block a Worm it forces you outside of the corner, which allows Merkava to fly in this space and create the mix up. It's easy to react to once you understand how the mix up works and is somewhat risky for Merkava, as he has to put himself in the corner for this. Be aware he can fake this out and stay in front. 

 

After a knock down, Merkava doesn't have any particular good mix ups but he has enough meaty attacks to continuously apply pressure. Some of his oki options involve flying around your downed body and then landing at the last minute for a low. He could also whiff a j.2C (it looks like a dive kick) and then go for a throw. 

[jo-p]

So here are some player matches (1/5) vs SHINE_IS_DEAD (Rank #3 Waldstein IIRC)

First things first, I really don't know how to deal with Waldstein. I haven't even tried to play as him in training mode before lol I knew absolutely nothing diving into this matchup. From the bits and pieces I did read about Waldstein it seems like i'd want to keep him as far away from me as possible. But that doesnt seem to fair very well playing as Carmine. Any and all tips/advice is welcome. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaozjCCWGQ

[mAceOfHearts]

He doesn't have a meterless reversal, so if you can score a knockdown, you can apply pressure on his wake-up without worrying about that.

You might want to try waiting for him to get to you. He has very little in the way of mobility, and his fastest movement options - Assault and [4]6A/B/C - are both easy to punish if you bait them.

Those're the only things I know about him that might help you out. He's regarded as one of the best characters for a reason