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[UNIEL] Orie Matchups Discussion

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Welcome to the Orie Matchups Thread!
Welcome to the Orie Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

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Looking for help with the Linne match up. I know stuff as far as 5A/5B/Divine Thrust as spacing tools but I typically get hit by her.. command jump? and then she CS. I also have issue with her 5C overhead. 

Also, is 3B a good tool in this MU?

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@Psyken: i actually also have difficulty with this MU and I don't want to give bad advise or anything, but it seems to me that there is little Orie can do once Linne gets in. counterpokes that would normally be viable simply do not work since Linne always has the option to cancel any unsafe normal into standing Kuuga. my experience vs Linne is typically blocking her pressure strings in the corner until Vorpal, getting off a lucky Sacred Spire, and continuing from there. mid-range seems to be the best distance vs Linne because of 5A/2C/Divine Thrust. 3B is a gamble because again, Linne can simply air Kuuga (EX or otherwise) into beefy combo and vortex you to death, and I typically wouldn't risk getting caught in her strings again unless it was really telegraphed that 3B would win.

 

@Button Masher: rule #1 is keep a safe distance. as you have said, Divine Thrust as a method of getting in against Waldstein is bad, instead fight at near-fullscreen by throwing 22B (or EX, if you have) hoplons and adding pressure behind it. Waldstein's hitbox is huge and he has a lot of trouble getting around it, so use it often. 3B into combo beats obvious jump-ins, but I'm pretty sure loses to assault instant overheads unless your reactions are on point. if at any point you drop a combo or the neutral is completely reset (after 623B ender, for example) then just get out asap with backdashes and repeat the above.

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From my experince Linn's Air to ground game seem pretty weak , is their a way Orie can exploit this?

 

Gordue is quote a fierce person to deal with. He has very good momentum control. 

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On the contrary Keo-Bas.. I feel like Orie controls the battle when it comes to Gordeau. He has a couple of tools that reach far but for the most part you can whiff punish him. Once you realize you can make him block and know how to answer to some of his stupid shit, you'll separate the bad gordeaus from the good ones in no time. You should always shield anything he throws are you from long distance. Be wary of his DP after he gets 100 meter or if he can Chain shift. 

3C 3C 3C 3C 3C.. I cannot stress enough how much this tool has helped me. You can lift off of the ground and still strike without getting grab PLUS a counter it. Grabs are always mind games but if you just know that he's going to grab.. and this goes for anything.. 3C this bitch.

Just play your spacing right and pick your moments. Go ham on his knockdown if you want to. Can always save meter for VEIL OFF if things get hairy. 

His slide will go under your divine thrust I think.

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On the contrary Keo-Bas.. I feel like Orie controls the battle when it comes to Gordeau. He has a couple of tools that reach far but for the most part you can whiff punish him. Once you realize you can make him block and know how to answer to some of his stupid shit, you'll separate the bad gordeaus from the good ones in no time. You should always shield anything he throws are you from long distance. Be wary of his DP after he gets 100 meter or if he can Chain shift. 

3C 3C 3C 3C 3C.. I cannot stress enough how much this tool has helped me. You can lift off of the ground and still strike without getting grab PLUS a counter it. Grabs are always mind games but if you just know that he's going to grab.. and this goes for anything.. 3C this bitch.

Just play your spacing right and pick your moments. Go ham on his knockdown if you want to. Can always save meter for VEIL OFF if things get hairy. 

His slide will go under your divine thrust I think.

BELIEVE IN 3C. No joke

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On the contrary Keo-Bas.. I feel like Orie controls the battle when it comes to Gordeau. He has a couple of tools that reach far but for the most part you can whiff punish him. Once you realize you can make him block and know how to answer to some of his stupid shit, you'll separate the bad gordeaus from the good ones in no time. You should always shield anything he throws are you from long distance. Be wary of his DP after he gets 100 meter or if he can Chain shift. 

3C 3C 3C 3C 3C.. I cannot stress enough how much this tool has helped me. You can lift off of the ground and still strike without getting grab PLUS a counter it. Grabs are always mind games but if you just know that he's going to grab.. and this goes for anything.. 3C this bitch.

Just play your spacing right and pick your moments. Go ham on his knockdown if you want to. Can always save meter for VEIL OFF if things get hairy. 

His slide will go under your divine thrust I think.

 

I can't believe how much using 3C worked dealing with wake up against Gordeau. Thanks for pointing this out.

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I think the characters who give me the most issues atm are Carmine and Byakuya. Carmine I just don't know when I can ever actually hit him because blood everywhere. Byakuya it feels like a lot of his stuff just beats mine and I can't deal with him at neutral. Any advice for these two?

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Re: Nanase, I don't claim to be an expert at this matchup so correct me if I'm wrong or missing any important tidbits. 

 

For neutral, it seems that halfscreen distance is the optimal range for Orie because Nanase's neutral options can easily be countered at this range (TK 236B can be punished on reaction by assault > j.C, slide and its A and B followups can be beaten by jumping back and hitting j.C, C followup can be punished with 236A) while Orie is at a range where B thrust is still threatening (doubly so if she has vorpal).

 

Try not to let Nanase get away with throwing out j.236B since it really helps her with getting in. If she does get away with it, you'll either have to block the fireball or manuever around the FB and hope she doesn't AA you/beat your AA bait/call you out on whatever you're trying to do. Her air normals are easily beaten by a well-spaced 3B but she can bait AAs by doing FF or 236A/B. You can beat this by either hard reading the AA bait and 3B'ing her after or by doing 623B if you're within horizontal range since FF and 236A move her straight up, which won't protect her from 623B's huge vertical reach.

 

From what I've seen, her vorpal-less pressure doesn't seem nearly as menacing as pressure monsters like Gordeau. Without CS, her main options to reset pressure are 2A rebeats, which leave her at a disadvantage, and normals cancelled FF into TK 236A, which can be AAed by 3B with ease. If she rebeats into 2A and she's in range to hit you with it, you'll have to decide if you want to mash 2A (beats 2A > dash in but loses to frame traps) or respect it (potentially lets her reset pressure but will limit her pressure options if she goes for a frame trap). Her ground high-low mixup game is rather weak due to how telegraphed her overheads are (dash C can't be done midstring while slide into B followup is very easy to react to). As such, shielding is a good option if you're certain that she won't go for throw mixups 

 

Once she gets pushed to 5C range and has used up most/all of her bigger normals, this is a good spot to think about poking out of pressure since she's too far to have the option/threat of doing 2A frame traps to reset pressure. If you think she'll try to FF into j.236A, you can poke her out with 3B or 236A. If she rebeats into 2A whiff, she'll be safe but be at a frame disadvantage, which means you now have a chance to get out at this point. Normals into slide will beat 236A mash but is a somewhat risky pressure option due to how unsafe her followups are. Keep in mind that this is only when she doesn't have CS; if she has CS, she now has safer ways to continue pressure and you may want to be a bit more careful with your disrespect.

 

Her defensive options aren't anything special. She has a DP, normals to mash and system mechanics to help her out. If you get in on her, run your offense like how you would do so against someone like Hyde.

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Nanase's 236B > 6C is punished with 236B.

 

Played Hilda a bunch. I think our best option is shielding her stuff > CS > use 41236C to punish pressure attempts. If Hilda does 22B, you can punish anything she does after it with 236B. She can block it, but then she's thinking twice about her pressure. If Hilda does 623B, you can punish it with 236B as well.

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Thanks for the write up, Psykotik. I'll go into training mode so I can recognize what Nanase's specials look like and punish accordingly. Appreciate the in-depth reply.

 

Edit was playing against a Nanase yesterday and also realized you can grab her out of dash B and react to dash C with 2C for a pretty gross combo afterward.

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Against Hilda, winning the GRD war is definitely important since it becomes easier to exploit the gaps in her pressure with CS. 236B is even better with CS since it pretty much lets you get in for free after blocking one of her negative moves. 

 

Anyone have any advice against Carmine? Neutral feels weird in that matchup.

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I need help with the Yuzuriha and Gordeau match ups.  :psyduck:

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@Dogars: most Yuzuriha's attacks are long range but suffer from a long recovery time, and on average, Yuzuriha is pretty slow compared to Orie. you'll want to play this neutral game by staying outside of her attack ranges completely (which is something like fullscreen) and fish for 623Bs. the range is slightly less farther than Yuzu's longest attacks, but is very quick compared to Yuzuriha in both terms of startup and recovery. worth mentioning is that Yuzuriha does not have a reversal besides VO or super, so don't be too hesitant to go ham with blockstrings. if you ever feel unsafe, you can always back out and try again in neutral. Yuzuriha's mixup game isn't also particularly strong, so just block low if you're being pressured and throw the 3ABD OS if you ever think an assault or throw is coming at you.

 

the Gordeau matchup plays similar: a full screen neutral game using 22A/B as screen filler and punishing whiffs with 623B. you want to stay out of his range, more so than Yuzuriha, because Gordeau can safe cancel his 5C into 5A or 236A rekkas. getting fish-hooked by his rekka is very bad since it drags you closer to Gordeau, where he excels in close range mixups with an arsenal of standing low, overhead, and a GRD-stealing command grab. at 100 meter, Gordeau gets two different reversals: EX command grab and EX grimreaper. be wary of both of these and learn in what situation your opponent uses either so you can counter them properly: blocking "beats" EX grimreaper (which beats 3C), but 3C beats EX command grab (which beats blocking).

 

i don't consider myself on Orie expert, but this is just the style that gives me the most success against these two.

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Some things I've learned playing a bunch against a local merkava:

A well spaced 3B will stop merkava's flight -> dash attempts and will also beat his dive kicks clean. Worst case scenario is that 3B trades with the flight dash but he just took more damage than you did. 

His reversal is easily baited and has no invul when the attack starts, 41236C or 623C beat it easily. If you don't have the meter, 623B will trade, but he just wasted 100 meter for a paltry 200 or so damage.

His backdash is really good but Orie has the tools to stop it between 66C and 236C

Whenever you see him going for the 3C overhead, immediately use 236B, you win either way. You either get out of his pressure if he does the feint (hilariously, if you have CS you can actually cancel the whiff as you get behind him and run up and punish him for it) or just hit him outright.

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It'll probably help if you specify where you're having problems.

Here are some general things, though:

There's nothing character specific to worry about with Eltnum, but the universally applicable stuff is still useful here. Jump or assault out of 5C > 5CC and punish her if you think she'll do it. Respect her pressure. Backdash when you think you can get away with it (remember, gunshots, EX gunshot, and EX whip are all good at hitting backdashes). Push buttons when you think she might re-beat (though watch out for 2a/5a rebeat > CS and other gimmicks). Try very, very hard to not let her get vorpal.

As Orie, the normal gameplan of trying to get a life lead and then creating space to force the opponent to move is pretty applicable here. It can be tough to create that space and/or make Eltnum respect it, but some thrusts and good usage of 'persona' specials will help in that regard. Remember that 22C in neutral is never a good idea, and is especially terrible against Eltnum with meter, as she can and often will just EX gunshot you for your troubles.

For Vatista, on offense, remember that she can easily punish 214A > Followup at most ranges, regardless of which followup you use. She can actually just OS a punish for that string, because she either will flashkick after 214A or shield the followup and punish with 2C. It's baitable at certain ranges (thank goodness), but if you're too close when you use 214A, you should be getting hit, and there's not much you can do other than accept that fact or try to CS and block (which obviously has its own downsides). Of course, as long as you're being unpredictable, it's pretty likely that the Vatista player won't recognize the situation fast enough to apply the punish, but that's a different matter. It's also generally safe after a blocked overhead because Vatista doesn't have enough time to fully charge a flashkick, I believe, though I could be wrong.

On defense, you'll have to get used to how Vatista's stein pressure works. If you get stuck blocking it, remember that endless stein pressure is not gapless or unmashable. With some shielding and/or macro-dashing, you can either create a gap where you can push a button (I suggest using 2C as Orie, as it's got good range and will knock Vatista out of 5A startup at long ranges, though it obviously has bad recovery on whiff) or mess up the spacing Vatista needs for safe stein pressure. In the latter case, you'll know you've messed with her spacing when you get inbetween the stein and Vatista, and the stein explosion pushes you towards Vatista instead of away from her.

It's pretty hard to describe how to deal with stein pressure, unfortunately. A lot of it is trial and error, or going into training mode and messing with Vatista's steins yourself.

Aside from that stuff, get used to confirming non-CH combos from things like 3B anti-air hits.

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General stuff was pretty much what I was looking for, my trouble has mostly been coming from not knowing what to do once they get their game started besides guessing when to hit some button to get out of a string. =_=; I've really only had the game a couple months and haven't gone online much so my hands-on matchup experience is pretty lacking.

 

Thank you very much for the writeup! I know just keeping all this stuff in mind won't improve me instantly, but I do feel like I now have a better understanding on how to approach these two.

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I need some noob help. A friend of mind picked up Hyde, and all he does is A Orbiter spam, and when I try to get in close he does Shadow Scare. When this happens and I have meter my instinct is to do EX Hoplon to get him to block long enough for me to dash up and begin pressure, but I end up getting snuffed by either some out of nowhere Dash C, DP, or he Chain Shifts into some crap 4k combo.

 

Am I doing something wrong? Should I just block and wait for him to charge in blindly then punish, or does Orie have a better way to deal with projectile spamming? Thanks ;;

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(I had to check what Shadow Scare was, haha)

If he uses 22A in neutral and you block it, it's pretty minus and you can probably start pressuring if you're close enough. You can also try thrusting or using 214A at some ranges to punish him if he tries throwing another fireball or 22A. Otherwise, dash-blocking, jumping and using air 'persona' moves to get over orbiter can be an okay choice at some ranges.

Letting Hyde run up and start pressure isn't an absolutely terrible idea, either. While he has very strong corner pressure, his midscreen pressure tends to be a bit weaker, especially when it's shielded or backdashed.

If Hyde is doing nothing but throwing orbiter and 22A/B and you aren't making good progress on approaching (this is fairly impossible, since Hyde would have to back himself into a corner to continue doing nothing but fireball spam if you're moving towards him), make absolutely sure that you are gaining vorpal on each cycle. Having the option to CS your 41236C super and so-on is pretty useful.

It's important to realize that while Hyde does do fairly good damage, his actual oki game is often not that good midscreen, so wakeup backdash, wakeup mash, and delayed wakeups can frequently mess with pressure. In the corner, his oki game is incredibly strong, as are most other characters.

Orie's pressure and damage is nothing to scoff at, so make sure to keep it up once you get a hit. :)

--

edit: Hyde's dash C is a very nice move, but it needs to be cancelled into some sort of special to make it safe on block, so you'll pretty much always see it followed up with a fireball, rekka, or force function. He has to spend meter afterwards if he wants to safely continue pressure, so you pretty much win that exchange if you just block whatever mixup attempt he goes for from the dash C.

Not sure where you're being DP'd, but there's not much to say about that, unfortunately. It's a DP and has to be respected as such. The hitbox on his DP isn't really anything special (it hits slightly behind him on the ground, but that doesn't really affect Orie), so you can sometimes jump past it or walk back out of its range. If you bait it, make sure to get a full punish out of it.

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Thank you so much for the text wall. <3 A lot of that seemed like common sense now that I think about it, so I'm definitely just dumb. I'll make sure to start trying to learn effective wakeup backdash and I'll incorporate more delayed wakeups.

 

I typically don't use the air "persona" moves because its then he decides to do the explosion follow up to orbiter and eat some damage, which discourages me from trying to start pressure again Orz

 

And usually, when I'm at a distance where I can hit him with 214A or B Thrust is when I'll begin to walk backwards. I'll wait for another round of projectile spam and I'll use that time to Assault and try to get a CH jC or CH j236A/B, and its then I either A: Lose Vorpal and he chain shifts into DP or B: I whiff by like a pixel and eat a CH combo myself. I think another thing I really need to start labbing more is Orie's range

 

But yeah, anyways, thank you so much. That all really helped.

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I have a question. I just started learning Orie and I don't know a lot of her matchups yet.

 

How does she fight Vatista, Chaos, and Merkava?

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