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[UNIEL] Vatista Matchups Discussion

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Welcome to the Vatista Matchups Thread!
Welcome to the Vatista Matchups Thread! Feel free to ask any questions or share any information you have learned about any specific matchups you've learned in UNIEL!

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Guess I'll start this!

 

Merkava. Wat do.

 

I feel he severely outclasses us at max range, laser is terribly unsafe, air ball is ok but not very useful? Bombs feel somewhat useless as space control from full screen since the grab hand has no hitbox.

I suppose we need to go in but I've been having a hard time punishing his jump out into fly. I haven't fought a Merkava since my bomb blockstrings got better though so that might help a bit.

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For the Merkava matchup I think you just have to go in. Risk reward is in his favor mid/fullscreen with random grabs.  Fullscreen you can do jump A fireball in the deadzone between his anti air grab and ground grab.  Chase the fireball and start moving in.  If he jumps and starts flying hold a charge shield his projectiles and react to his swoop with flashkick. 

 

If at any point he eats a fireball/flashkick you can charge laser which beats all of his hand grabs.

 

Vorpal is very important for this matchup. It lets you anti air him extremely high up if you CS when he is above you and confirm C flashkick.  If he gets it any random hand grab is 3k+.

 

Basically just get in on him and maul him. His only reversal is 236c (WHICH HE WILL USE) which can be reaction flashkicked out of during startup as long as you have a charge.

 

As always super punishes any button so if they get careless fullscreen you can fuck him up.

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Jump A orb doesn't really seem to threaten Merkava at full screen since he can just tickle through it with 214A.  Alternating between jump B orb into ground laser seems like it should be a fairly effective way to shut down full screen grabs.  If he tries to tickle you as you land, he'll eat the orb and I believe you can be airborne again by the time he recovers from the laser blockstun and throws out another grab.

 

I have the same problem with Hilda but I can't really think of a viable solution to that since she can nullify orbs so easily...  Some of her moves leave a large enough window on whiff to dash C in but it seems like every time that works, it's because I gambled and won.  Not really the way I like to play.

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What do we do about Hilda?

 

From my experience, it's MU where you don't want to try out zoning her because she'll win that war most of the time. I'll primarily try keeping her in 5B/5C range w/ a crystal in front of me to detonate and keep her locked down. I've also seen some Vatista players take a more rushdown approach using j.C until the cows come home.

 

My main issue has been against Merkava as Vatista too. I'm not too fond of watching her get snatched up after losing :(

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I haven't fought enough Merkava so I don't feel as threatened by him, probably bias, I usually end up laming them out pretty hard.

Merk 214A/B is good against Vat but jump back B orb usually puts you right above 214A and right below 214B.

B laser is great but unfortunately he can block out of fly because he likes breaking rules, if he's ahead of laser he's in flashkick zone, can also try jAB forward laser as well if he's flapping forever.

Round 1 start his 5B has as much range as Vat 5C and is faster so don't hit 5C if you like doing that.

Not really much advice sorry.

 

I find Gordeau much more oppressive than Merkava, I really can't back off ever to get started with my normal gameplan.

His 5C outranges AND IS FASTER than Vat 5C, and when he's in close I don't feel I can mash anywhere at all nor can I jump.

Need help on that one.

 

Hilda feels like something I'd have to play offline first to actually not get pissed off, it's a lot of blocking everything and taking no damage and standing up for obvious overheads, and just waiting to hit her once.

Losing charges in that matchup online is death.

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Gordeau is a pain. He gets zoned pretty well by Vat but when he gets in his mixup is obnoxiously strong. Also Ex Grim Reaper can call out just about anything you do (it even beats bomb oki).  Another matchup I feel fighting for vorpal is extremely important.

 

Hilda is just a test of patience. I don't think the matchup is as bad as many believe. Hilda has absolutely no way to deal with Vat pressure once you do get in.  Skewer and fireball cancel each other out so it is a good idea to get one out and chase it to close the gap when you can. You can duck grounded skewer to try to get a forward charge but be careful since good Hildas will do TK diagonal down skewer to punish this.  TK Skewer has a lot more recovery though so it gives you more time to move in and if you dash under it you can punish her falling. Most importantly SUPER WINS GAMES. If you have 200% and she has less than 3k you can end the match for her trying any button if your reactions are good enough.

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EX Grim reaper beats bomb oki? Godamnit.

Honestly should be testing repeated orb troll against all chars to see what they can do, I hit some people with it that I'm pretty sure could have done something (Seth)

 

So Yuzuriha.

This feels like Vat Hilda again, except in the opposite direction.

At low level we destroy Yuzuriha, and the higher it goes and the more aware the Yuzu is of how the game actually works the more we lose.

More or less Yuzu controls the GRD game unless we go in, and teleport CS makes us unable to throw projectiles to cover our approach.

Jump back full screen orb lasering instantly gives Yuzu the GRD advantage, and we can't really charge midscreen either behind a crystal cause of slashes.

Feels like the best option is trying to rush her down before the first Vorpal hits and holding it once we get a lead.

Japan (rather, semi-random commentator on a nicovid) says the matchup is 7:3 Yuzu, ironically enough, he said this right before the Vatista proceeded to run a train over Yuzuriha in spectacular fashion, so it's not unwinnable or anything.

I'll be quite honest I have yet to run into a Yuzuriha that really scared me yet, mainly because I don't let most of them get the first Vorpal, but I expect it'll be different if I play someone like LK.

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Hey guys. 

 

I lost to Grover's Vatista in a mirror match. Keep in mind his main is Hyde and that, from what I saw, he won using only pure basics and simpler combos.

So basically, I lost to a person who subs my main!

 

Mirror match feels like you have to counter a turtle playstyle with an even lamer turtle play style.

 

Any ideas? I feel like I am missing something very basic if something like this happens.

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Hey guys. 

 

I lost to Grover's Vatista in a mirror match. Keep in mind his main is Hyde and that, from what I saw, he won using only pure basics and simpler combos.

So basically, I lost to a person who subs my main!

 

Mirror match feels like you have to counter a turtle playstyle with an even lamer turtle play style.

 

Any ideas? I feel like I am missing something very basic if something like this happens.

Seems like it would be very similar to a *shudders* Guile mirror.  First person to jump loses. -_-

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Against Waldstein, depending how good the other guy is, you have maybe like 2 chances to beat him.

 

On the bright side, she has the tools to keep him locked in a combo.

 

The downside, she has a hard time against him while under pressure.

 

So it really depends how good at keeping consistent combos you are, Cuz if you manage to land a good hit confirm, it can potentially lead to him having almost no health at best, half health at worst.

 

The second chance is if the other guy drops his combos.

 

That's what I've managed to scrounge up after having run ins.

 

Against Gordeau, he seems to buckle everytime I play lame and just block and punish. Remembering that Vat's C's have range, 66C's and 66B's being good. And overall being in his face.

 

But its really nerveracking due to how easy he can bring it back. And plus, I really hate his command grabs.

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Vs Waldstein I have no idea, only fought 2 of them but didn't have any major problems.

 

Vs Vatista, I think you really want to fight for GRD here, shield everything you can from fullscreen, etc. Vorpal means dash.C into 50/50 for a safe way to get in + mixup, but I don't have much experience in the mirror. CS also means meter and meter management is probably key also since EX laser is a great reactionary punish to fullscreen zoning.

 

Vs Gordeau I still lose more than I win but I think we have to play extra lame and jump a lot less than we're allowed to in many other matchups, like someone said his 5c is better and quicker than ours so once he gets in range things tend to go sour. If you're gonna run oki the 2c route seems like the best bet, typical drill or flashkick ender into bomb is punisheable on his wakeup. Bombs are useful in neutral and I like standing at 5c range for the detonate but always fear the reaper.

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I think what really kills me against mirror matches and Gordeau, is Vat's lack of a ground overhead. Or something that can be used to crack open someone's defense other than going for a throw. Cuz her pressure game, when she gets in there , SHE GETS IN. But in order to do that, I need to play strong and hope the other dude makes the mistake of incorrectly blocking.

 

Her only overhead, the air drill B, is not only hard to use frequently, its discouraged to do raw. Or against anyone who can either DP you or anti-air you in a heart beat.

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B drill overhead is mashable on, it's like every other "standing" overhead in the game other character's have except it's completely unsafe on block!

Pretty risky to do, even out of chain shift, without orb explosion to cover you.

Might as well do jB instead most of the time, my last session against godsh0t he mashed out on 98% of the B drill overheads I did

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Do you mean mashable on startup or after blocking? On startup the times I get mashed is because I time the OH incorrectly and make it very obvious, but if someone always mashes when you go for the setup can't you just do 2c instead? or even throw them. If you mean on block then yeah, it's very unsafe if they can shield it properly but remember you can cancel to EX laser to make it safe.

 

j.B isn't nearly as strong IMO since rising normals don't count as OH until you're going down.

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I'm having quite a lot of trouble against Hilda and I'm not sure if that is expected or not.

 

I feel like I don't really have a range I want to be, I end up rushing down most of that time and at that point it seems like I'm playing the character with only half her toolset. 

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I was wondering about that MU myself but I heard from a JP player that it's in our favor.

 

My take on it: Full screen isn't too bad and close range we're definitely better, it's the space in between where Vatista struggles so you need to try and avoid it. Practice your bomb blockstrings, Hilda can't do much to disrespect them if you execute properly as shown in a few atepo videos. Vatista's toolbox is still useful from up close, remember you can use lumen as a frametrap and to cover you air approaches and go for mixups and EX laser to make blockstrings safe and +frames. You want to end combos in oki if possible since flashkick leaves you at a comfortable range for Hilda to start pressuring you. I wish I had more specific information to share with you but there aren't many Hilda players where I live so I don't have much experience in the matchup either.

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There's a couple here so I'm pretty used to how she plays, I guess I'm just not experienced with Vatista enough yet.

 

I do need to level up my crystal blockstrings, I think my hitconfirm right now is more geared towards confirming a hit and considering it includes no mixup on its own it is quite weak. I think I should stop caring about getting a good confirm and instead EXPECT to be going for crystal pressure on my first strings every time.

 

When I've managed to land a hit on Hilda I have been able to apply oki pretty well, she doesn't really have any options against it and while Vatista's mixup isn't amazing, the bomb on oki does hide it somewhat, so if you can delay the 2C enough to be timed similarly to what a divekick would be the mixup is pretty legitimate hidden by a bomb and it has been working for me.

 

I think I have been losing the matchup by dropping my pressure, too often I find myself without an appropriate charge at the end of a blockstring and end up being challenged or straight up punished by Hilda 2B so if I iron that out I think it will help me.

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How do you guys feel about the Carmine matchup? Feels odd when most vatistas I run into just hide in the top corner and shoot stuff. Carmine can't seem to get up that high and that's how the match usually goes... Any input?

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How do you guys feel about the Carmine matchup? Feels odd when most vatistas I run into just hide in the top corner and shoot stuff. Carmine can't seem to get up that high and that's how the match usually goes... Any input?

Well, that's the Carmine MU usually.

 

Vs Carmine: The MU feels a lot about zoning him a bit with projectiles unti he start spamming his. Then, you wait him to get in and punish/yomi him with a DP to keep him closer and start to rush down him. You can't rush at him because of his blood traps and also vatista mobility, so is better to wait and react, drop him to the gorund and start with your pressure and try not to let him get away. He has no meterless DP, so is easy to pressure him, but be careful with gaps and his big ass normals.

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I find Gordeau much more oppressive than Merkava, I really can't back off ever to get started with my normal gameplan.

His 5C outranges AND IS FASTER than Vat 5C, and when he's in close I don't feel I can mash anywhere at all nor can I jump.

I've started learning Vatista yesterday, and I can already say that our 5C is actually faster than his. Not by much, yeah, but if you mash C at start of round, it should beat his.

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The Vatista vs. Merkava matchup can be hard.  If close, Merkava just runs all over Vatista, but using consecutive lasers is a good way to keep Merkava at a distance.  You have to be careful though, his stretchy arm grab thingy can beat laser if you're not fast enough, so you have to be careful.  Doing her 82b after assault C is a good way to beat mashing 2a too.  Do that and you should be alright.  

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Any thoughts on the Orie matchup?

I did a little bit of training mode and I know I can punish her 214A/B with flashkick (-11 & -7 respectively). The recovery is really bad and even doing the followup there's a big gap.

 

But her divine thrust we can't seem to do anything about unless we flashkick on reaction. (shielding doesn't let you punish it when she spaces it well )

 

One thing I did forget to test is if laser can hit her out of the 22A/B setups after her sweep. Does anyone know if she blocks after the persona bubble is out that it'll stop the move? or would that only be on hit?

 

And is it possible to low profile the divine thrust at all? what happened here?!

video ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wAvp0imlDto#t=1145

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I'm not worried about that match-up, like, at all. Her gameplan is mostly the same as ours, except we're better at all aspects of it and even have some added perks in terms of zoning. [4]6A and Fragments should be more than enough to make her careful about throwing out random Thrusts, her mix-ups are very basic (and we can even Flash Kick her overhead on reaction easily), and her DP doesn't seem like it helps much against Fragment oki. Dunno, maybe I should play more scary Ories.

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