[UNIEL] Eltnum Matchups Discussion

[Tigre]

temp

[Dacidbro]

All Matchups

In pretty much every MU, Eltnum takes off when she controls 100 meter or vorpal - make sure to adjust your risk reward accordingly! (Ex. committing to 66C without vorpal is great reward but high risk; with vorpal, it's great reward -low- risk - similarly, 214B without meter is a great poke, but low reward; with meter, it's a great poke with -high- reward)

"I've noticed that vorpal 5A 2C is amazing at catching backdashes. If you're opponent is really backdash happy, then you can use 5A 2C in vorpal as:

1) Backdash killer

2) Decent starter (3k in vorpal)

3) Still leaves many gatling options (5B, 2B, 3C, 5C, 2A)

4) A natural frame trap" ~stickystaines

The other trump card is 5A CS, as a;

1) Backdash crusher

2) Beats all reversals, command grabs, etc

3) Counter hits mash, catches jump out

4) forces blockstun on block

Literally beats all options, but the reward isn't as high as others and you spend CS. Still -very- worth it, frequently.

WaldStein

Yesterday, me and @MusclesMurphy (AKA sharkkato103) were practicing Eltnum VS Waldstein. Not seeing a significant advantage for either char, here's some notes;

66C is a strong poke for both, safety and practicality higher for Wal, reward higher for Elt (R&R w Vorpal is very good)

Shielding the last move of Wal's string and using 236A or 236B can be great to get advantage or a KD, but Wal assault can high profile it

Elt's anti airs are pretty bootleg. 236A/B to control space, 66C can be good for hard, early calls, d5B can beat assaults, typically shield or block

As both characters, grab early grab often. If Elt isn't representing grab, the rest of the mix up is not effective enough.

"I just recently played a lot of matches with my local Wald player and we noticed how useful Eltnum's DP and 214A/B are in this MU as well. At first I thso ought Eltnum's 3C could stuff his Assaults but Wald's air normals are so huge that it seemed like her DP was the only viable choice, however it has to be an early call out though since Wald's air normals can hit Eltnum out of DP. 214A/B can be useful at mid range but you have to pick your spots carefully." ~Ichipoo

You can react to many of Waldstein's air options with 623B, it's a life saver.

This might be obvious, but 623B is also a dragon punch. -use it on defense or die- (Range is very poor, so you have to either catch a normal or use it point blank)

This -also- might be obvious, but -backdash is invulnerable too- so make sure to use it as well.

214B covers a great angle and distance, 214A seems to get crushed by most air options much more easily.

As for 3C, it's surprisingly ineffective at neutral. early 66C covers the things it wants to much better.

66B j214A oki is savage in this MU, especially w vorpal near the corner. Beats all wald options other than reversal 623C to my understanding, confirms near corner if 66B hits, w CS if j214A hits

It's also plus even on shield. If he green shields after 66B, j214A will whiff but you still have advantage.

Chaos

I would expect Eltnum is in a significant lead in this matchup.

Be calm in lizard pressure, full screen there's no mix up. Relax and then 2B when you're sure you see the hole (5A and 2A will -not- hurt the lizard)

Chaos' pink wall is a very powerful poke with CS, and a decent one without it, so be careful in that range. Control space with 236A/B, with meter confirm to 236C and also consider 5C 214B, 2C 5[C] 214B, 5[C] 214B, 214B in increasing range order.

His AA is pretty good, so don't commit to assault too often. You should come out on top in footsies between 236A, 2C, 214B and the hard call 66C (esp w vorpal)

Don't overcommit if he's set the lizard (lizard underground), he can release it on reaction for counter hits even if he blocks.

(Updated on phone, formatting tmrw)

Hilda

At opening, you can use 236A, questionable risk reward but not poor.

Her 5B is brutal, will beat all your dashing pokes at a run except early 2C which at that range loses to 2B.

This is a challenging obstacle but it's literally Hilda's entire strength - if she keeps you out, she is permitted to live.

66C is a great poke if she keeps going to the air, but it loses to 5B, 3B and is horribly unsafe on block.

22A surprisingly good poke, but also loses to 5B 2B.

Edit: training mode suggests predictable 5Bs can be beaten by jump back assault - needs further testing, might help a lot. 5B on whiff is reactably 2Cable, full combo with god hands or 2k+knockdown

Remaining patient, then, is key. Avoid being frame trapped. If you can call out the charge up overhead, it's pre-emptively punishable with 214B and you get a knockdown (bonus points if you're in range for 214A and can hit the confirm). If you block it (and it -is- reactable, in a vacuum) she can high low afterwards on B release, not sure if reactable.

So then, the focus at neutral is to avoid blocking when possible and don't get Chinese finger trapped until she has at least proven mix up. Every mix up (possible exception, orb feather knockdown >late high/low - I think this is just deadly. Be careful of when and where you tech off the ground) she has puts her in danger in this matchup, and a -lot- of it when Eltnum has meter.

All distant pokes lose in risk reward to 214B 214C

All point blank mix ups risk 412C for 4K (it may feel "scrubby" but you -have- to represent this option to tame her offense - this move is a major reason I picked this character, mixing her up is a hazard - timing is critical though, so if you're not getting paid you have a pattern or sloppy timing)

Be willing to shield projectiles to steer grd in your favor. Controlling vorpal is always sub-goal #1 for Eltnum. Getting safe massive dmg on 66C with a backup plan of "CS > I'm in" is crazy. You don't need 5A CS in this matchup either, because she has no reversals (maybe super?) so only use that if you sniff a veil off and don't feel confident in your OSes (jabs recover before veil; 5A~5B 1)

[Sharkkato103]

Waldstein

Wald vs Elt from the Wald perspective:

4B can stuff Eltnum dps on wakeup 623 series because it is so active and has no hitbox on the claw. Not sure about 421C.

Wald can punish Eltnum 5CC string with a jumpforward jC.

Assault is Wald's main too to get in for this matchup, if you think she's going to 2C or sometimes even 5C assault can get over (sometimes have to upback assault). However assault will always lose to 214 (or at least I never noticed 214 fail to beat it.)

If you're afraid of gunshots but still want to get in on her, jump assault j2C CS covers pretty much the whole screen and can sometimes even punish gunshots (usually the 3 shot version)

66B and 5C and 66C are great anti airs against her angles if she is approaching. 5C for furthest approach, 66B for mid approach, 66C for close approach (don't question it just rock it)

5B and clap are about the range of elt 2C, gunshots, and 214 at the very tip. Elt 2C can beat both, but then loses to assault. Gunshots also seem to lose to assault, Wald's feet don't seem to have much of a hurtbox during his hop. 214B doesn't seem to lose to much honestly. I need to test out more to see what does work vs that move.

Oh and if you're not using and abusing 66B j214A you're messing up.

That's about all I can think of for now.

[Rsquared]

I tested a couple of matchup things in this video I made:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev6ZneIrwFo

 

most notable things

-Eltnum can backdash Gordeau 22A after 66C where he'll be minus 

-214B is -hella- in the Nanase MU

-Eltnum can Anti-air certain assaults and jump ins with 66C (wald not shown but possible)

-Eltnum can react to Byakuya's web setups with a gunshot for a counterhit

[Tempered]

In the Vatista matchup 236a and 214a beat lazer and orb at round start. Also with any fireball characters including Vatista, If you can space a dash C properly you will hop over their fireball and hit them with the down kick. this leads into a combo.

[HiguraShiki]

We need a Gordeau matchup. Anyone got a few tips? His command grab specifically is killing me.

[Kaori Manabe]

We need a Gordeau matchup. Anyone got a few tips? His command grab specifically is killing me.

 

It's hard but

 

You have to man fight that character and get in.

 

• Jumping at him outside of pressure is going to get you blown up due to a lot of his stuff being air unblockable, 2C being a godlike anti air, etc.
• If you're being pressured, you have to be patient or guess right away. Don't try to mash out of his commandd throw off deep j.b 5b 5a stuff like that, just jump since it's almost like a true block string, you just want to jump out of it.
• If you know/think hes going to try to meaty command throw you, you have to man up and mash him out of it, do not rely on backdash to blow up command throw, you'll get killed doing this since he has so many options to hit you for backdashing on wakeup!
• If he doesn't have meter its all you, if he does you're gonna have to learn how to react between his grim reaper super and cmd throw super, if you see a scythe, block, if you don't jump. 

  you really don't want to mash against him unless he does cheeky things.

• On the off chance if you have vorpal on wakeup you can cs to see if hes going for meaty tackle cs on wakeup and read the situation

• His air normals are pretty good, 3C has head invuln on the 8th frame, so you can deal with assaults. I don't know if you want to challenge them most of the time in neutral. Jump c, Dash C , and air throw are your best bets. J.C is going to lose if you're going to do it too slowly, air throw works if it isn't active already, dash c is kind of a silly anti air that actually works.

   

   

  In the corner you can't just forward jump at him to stop him from mashing supers like most other characters because you'll get hit by ex grim reaper so you'll have to be mindful of that.

   

  Don't try to punish slide if you didn't shield it, especially when he has meter, it isn't worth it.

DP isn't that great of an option here. if you get hit by his bnb or basically anything into a command grab he can safejump you, outside of this situation DP is alright but of course still a gamble

 

You have to stay in momentum in this matchup, otherwise you're just forced to guess

 

Sticking outside of his 2b range is strong because he doesn't have anything appropriately fast to do anything at that range, his 2c is an antiair, and 3c leads into a dead end for him.

they'll use something to get into advantage and gamble to force situations agaisnt you at this range, 2c or dash 2b may be good at this range. 

 

 

 

 

 

unrelated notes that are still important:

 

Orie vs Eltnum

 

Very fair matchup to me.

 

Her gameplan:  She tries to get you in blockstun and uses pressure strings to get you press buttons (frametraps)  and disrespects with you using her 22a/b to continue pressure when shes conditioned you to block.

 

 

In neutral:

It isn't that but, she can be annoying to approach in cute ways by thrusting at you or trying to bait your air shields with her air persona attacks.

Gun doesn't seem super useful, but if you can read her trying to thrust at you, you can blast her with a 236B, Whip isn't that important here either since the better orie players are going to be mindful that they won't be able to backdash for free against you. The problem is that her pressure strings are pretty safe, here are a lot of things you can't deal with even on shield, but it's worth it just to push her back and get GRD, on neutral situations close up, they favor her since her pokes are longer range and similar speed. If you end your string in 22a agaisnt this character you should block or backdash most of the time, she can poke out if you get greedy easily, mix it up with assaults/staggers/throws.

 

 

Pressuring her:

 When you're on top of her in the corner its amazing for you though, she can't do anything about it unless she has vorpal, in which case you it's super risky to go for meaty if she has meter, just be mindful of that.

So the trade off for her neutral being slightly better evens itself out when you are better than her in pressure.

 

Random stuff:

Get used to 5C,4C,6B animations, they're all similar. get used to blocking/mashing out of 6b.

Get used to reading when she'll go for j.a chainshift stuff.

Really sloppy 22+c she may activate you can backdash out of them, but be careful not to try to jump, you'll end up chicken blocking the super and proceed to die

Run past supers you can jump over them and then she dies, you'll probably be seeing this more than her ex DP since the run past has way more frames of invuln

Most persona shit you can't mash out of only the really bad followups, and after you block it you can't mash either cause she'll thrust at you, even if she backdashes after persona stuff you'll have to use ex whip since 214a wont catch it.

 

It's generally harder to get opened up vs her, especially if you are really good at reacting agaisnt her overhead, so there isn't much incentive to try to mash out of her pressure aside from  the orbs/overheads considering its pretty non-commital.

[stickystaines]

I get a lot of mileage out of 2C in the Gordeau matchup. Used correctly, it can keep him honest about pressing buttons in that range, which Gord's love to do, and gives you a good confirm most of the time.

[Tempered]

VS gord your whips and gunshots are your best friends. They're slightly less range that his scythe moves but slightly faster it feels. If you get a 2c or a 5c hit you get a 214b and oki or combo with CS/Meter. Gun shots help vs long and mid range assaults starting from the ground. if he jumps and assaults at you play some SF and DP him. Also make sure to to shield grim reapers and mortal slides to make the matchup a bit easier.

[jo-p]

Curious how you guys feel about the Carmine matchup?

[Laziefreddy]

Any tips on the Linne matchup?  I have a hard time dealing with her fireball pressures.

[stickystaines]

What kind of fireball pressure? If she is doing grounded Kuuga and dashing after it, she is usually at disadvantage so you can press 5A and beat out any button she will press. She is only at advantage after dashing after max range B kuuga (the fast one). If she does kuuga in a blocktring then she is never in a range where she will gain advantage after dashing kuuga.

 

If you are talking about TK Kuuga, then there are a couple ways to deal with it. 236B can nullify the kuuga and the other 2 hits will catch her. If she is doing TK kuuga out of range because she is trying to threaten that area, then you can 236C her as she is going for it. I haven't personally tried this, but you should be able to 214B also if she is out of range to hit you with TK kuuga. I don't know if this will be a punish, but it should prevent her from moving towards you after a TK kuuga.

 

Generally you either want to be outside of Kuuga range or right up in her face pressuring her.

[Tempered]

Shielding Linne and pushing her out is rather easy since her only overhead is b Hien which is unsafe on block and easy to react to. Just have to watch for when she does assault mixups. And as sticky mentions gunshots and whips are good against her trying to TK kuuga in neutral. 

[stickystaines]

She does have 5C[C] as well for overhead, but you can react to it imo. But you do have to get used to it first. And B Hien is safe but disadvantage; it's like -3 or -4 i think. A hien is the unsafe one at around -7.

[Laziefreddy]

Thanks tempered and stickystaines, I did not know she was negative after fireball dash. Another problem I had with her is that its very hard to antiair her. Between the double jump and air kuuga, I have to be very conservative in uppercutting her, which makes her usually the one on the offensive side. I will try shielding her strings to push her back and see if it makes a difference.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Just got out of a long set vs Merkava.

1) Grabby arm is always ALWAYS punishable with 236C.
2) 214B works wonders full screen, when you have meter, or CS ready.
3) Shield the 66C > 623B seemed to normally work.
4) You can dash under his overhead at a good number of spacings.
5) the second hit of his 2B has crazy range don't forget about it and get blown up.
6) If your playing offline you can shield the last hit of his reversal super and punish...if not just 623B it post flash.
7) pretty much all of his whiff cancels are quite minus so use that to try to get in or just gunshot to check him.
8) Be extremely careful just throwing out dash 2B because Merkava can/will just dive kick that.  Check him with 5A.
 

[ShinsoBEAM]

Anyone know any tricks for the Hilda match I feel like I just have to block and get in which is really difficult online?

okay I got a number of Hilda matches in now their are a few tricks, but mostly read her frame data and dash then block while moving forward, once you get in range of your c moves you can start guessing press button or move in. Once you get in don't let her out you should have grd so that isn't a problem but watch out for raw activate. It sounds simple but its tricky online I don't like to shield her much really only far range high projectile move(free laser super punish on shield) and her over head I bother with.

[neiluj95]

236B is pretty useful in the Hilda matchup since it works in Hilda's optimal range, whereas 2C just falls short. If you predict Hilda's 623B (the spike that appears in the back) you can use 236B to stuff it. Otherwise, dash block, block all her mixups, and make sure you get vorpal. If you're playing online, good luck doing anything 

 

Against Hilda's meterless orb oki (lynchpin ender into orb), the Hilda player needs to guess which way you're going to tech. Vary your back and neutral tech to avoid the 50/50. I think her EX orb covers both tech options.

 

Hilda's orb in neutral is a free 236C. Crouching under her A skewer is also a free 236C.

 

She'll usually set up her 50/50 in neutral by canceling a move into EX orb, e.g. 623B into EX orb. She usually does an A skewer after the EX orb to stop you from moving, but you can use 421A to duck under the skewer.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Thanks for the tip about 236B and 421A under skewer.  I only play online and havn't fought a Hilda with a connection better then 2 bars yet, mostly just prototype and uhhh man I can't remember the other guys name now he was like right below prototype in the rankings though, blocking j.[C]/2A online is suffering.

[neiluj95]

Shuvora? I play against him offline and get bodied all the time lol. j.[C]/2A is a true 50/50 when timed properly so you just have to guess.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Yeah that's him, I keep taking rounds of him...but losing the set.  I kept meaning to message him to tell him gg/great Hilda.

[OneHero]

I am having trouble with the Byakuya MU. I really don't know how to approach him in general. Getting blown up by his long normals and that really weird overhead...

[ShinsoBEAM]

Byakuya forces people to play his game I strongly suggest going into training mode and learning his options, he has a good number of gaps where you can reversal out if you read him right, once you get knockdown just don't let him out. Don't forget you can shoot/whip his webs.

[silverhydra]

Byakuya forces people to play his game I strongly suggest going into training mode and learning his options, he has a good number of gaps where you can reversal out if you read him right, once you get knockdown just don't let him out. Don't forget you can shoot/whip his webs.

 

Destroying the webs steals grid from you, so just exercise discretion when choosing to do this.

[Sashi]

Best plan of action is to probably just go in against Byakuya. Outside of his 2B, he can't really keep you out. No real reversals, either. His neutral is not that good, but letting him set up webs means that you'll always be at a huge GRD disadvantage. If he tries to do web pull in his blockstrings, 236A his face and confirm it with meter.

 

Hilda is free to 214C. It beats so many of her options at every point in the game. Once you've shown her that you're not afraid to use it, you can then start using greedy ways of getting in.

 

EDIT: If you have CS, you can actually tkj.214A over Byakuya 2B and confirm it for 3k. It's hilarious. I did it by accident one time trying to 214A. :v