[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[zaeris]

In the corner Grab > 214B > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B causes early air tech window to appear. Man I am super duper excited now.

Seen here.

Also, 236D movement distance has definitely been nerfed. It scales abount the same space as 236C. So no more 22D > 236D midscreen, but I guess it doesn't hurt too much.

well we already know that they limit the duration of s type starter, so was expected. since 236d does spinning status, 22d>236d is obsolete otherwise bother lol.

[chzchan]

Hmm, what does 236D's current large distance covered do for us right now? 

[TheGreatReptar]

236D's distance looks the same to me?  You can probably still do 22D>2366D. 

 

236B>214B>22D not causing wallbounce midscreen again kind of annoys me =X

[chzchan]

Hmm. I guess I am probably wrong about the 236D thing. I should do some actual measurements instead of eyeballing.

 

端 IG1 HG75% ハーフODで投げから5300。

端 IG1 HG100% ハーフODでBBCCから5800。

 

中央はBBCCから5350。

 

From Spinoza

 

What does IG mean?

[Zouf]

Install Gauge 1 = 1 stock

 

@zaeris : comparing Tsubaki to Litchi makes little to no sense.

 

Litchi can convert anything into damage because she was (is?) too strong and need(ed) to be toned down. Our damage is average / better than the majority of the cast.

 

Also, I've no idea what "our better okizeme" is supposed to be. Our mixup game is the same (meaning trash), and j.214 gives more or less the same okizeme than before. Even worst, 22B has much more untech time, and won't allow us to charge at all midscreen, and maybe even in corner.

 

I won't judge too quickly about this new Tsubaki, but at first glance she doesn't look stronger than before to me.

[chzchan]

 

Install Gauge 1 = 1 stock

 

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks man.

 

Man, that is ridiculous damage off 1 charge even considering the heat requirements.

 

I just asked Spinoza and 214D is not cancellable into CT. He said that you have to jump and use advanced input to cancel into CT during the 4 frames of jump startup when you are still on the ground. Her super advanced combos are actually going to be a legitimate challenge now.

[zaeris]

Install G

@zaeris : comparing Tsubaki to Litchi makes little to no sense.

I like how your deflecting it even though I could just use many of the meta character because damage is a universally comparable measure. Meaning it is irrelevant how you land it but what resources you uses and how easy it is. She does badly in this area, I don't know how you say the requirement for charges doesn't hurt her more compare to normal characters with free resources.

The overall changes to charge would equate to charge move being an icing on the cake rather then a requirement to pull off her damage combo. That is going to be much more stable overall.

@ chzchen

I'm not sure if 214d ct will be a staple new route because you have many choices now, with 236d and 22d still in the picture. The higher burst damage looks interesting since if you play in a conservative style until your opponent burst your next combo would just end the round.

[Zouf]

I like how your deflecting it even though I could just use many of the meta character because damage is a universally comparable measure. Meaning it is irrelevant how you land it but what resources you uses and how easy it is. She does badly in this area, I don't know how you say the requirement for charges doesn't hurt her more compare to normal characters with free resources.

The overall changes to charge would equate to charge move being an icing on the cake rather then a requirement to pull off her damage combo. That is going to be much more stable overall.

@ chzchen

I'm not sure if 214d ct will be a staple new route because you have many choices now, with 236d and 22d still in the picture. The higher burst damage looks interesting since if you play in a conservative style until your opponent burst your next combo would just end the round.

You could but you've chosen one of the strongest character in the game to make your argument valid.

 

I agree with you that now charge looks like more icing on the cake, but I prefer Tsubaki CS2 style where charges were much faster, chargeless damage around 2.5k but could use her charges to gain momentum quite easily. 236D tends to go this way, but our charge rate doesn't look so fast, and 5B/5C cancel 5D is still - afaik

 

We'll see I guess, need more footage of Kuresu.

[chzchan]

I'm going to say what I said earlier about the risk/reward so I can attempt to understand the different perspectives. So what they did with this damage damage buff is bump up chargeless Tsubaki's reward to match her risk. It also will make her less reliant on charges for damage which slightly lowers her risk but not by much. This does heavily influence matchups, though, making the ones where she can be completely denied charges a tiny tiny tiny bit more bearable, but still pretty awful. They also made her charge rate 20% faster which decreases the risk of attaining resources slightly. I can see that they upped the utility of some D specials as well.

======

Chargeless 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward

With Charges (damage) 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward

With Charges (neutral) 1.1 Risk : Reward -> 2.0 Risk : Reward

 

 

There are different things that people could want. Different combinations. For example, decreasing chargeless risk by making her pressure not as easy to just leave and making her approaches without using charge better or more reliable. Maybe changing around the hurtboxes on some of her normals and other stuff like that. That would be matching her chargeless risk to her chargeless reward by giving her an easier time in neutral and when applying pressure to compensate for how little damage she is capable of chargeless. 2.0 is definitely not heading in this direction.

======

Chargeless Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward

 

 

They could maybe make charging as fast as it used to be in order to match the reward it currently gives so that Tsubaki would be able to deal big boy damage regularly. This is sort of what 2.0 is doing, but on a much smaller scale due to the increased charge rate. This would lower risk to the levels that the damage reward are at so they are equal.

======

With Charges (damage) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward

 

 

Maybe they could have made Tsubaki having charges give her some damn great neutral superiority somehow. This is also something they definitely did not do, increase the reward of using charges in neutral to match the risk. This is the one that I would want more than anything. More than goddamn anything.

======

With Charges (neutral) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, though this entire thing I made is heavily biased into how I see the current Tsubaki. Feel free to copy this if you want to adjust it into one for how you feel. Also, I may be simplifying things too much, so tell me what variables I could be missing.

[Daedron]

Charging seems to become faster the longer you hold it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_ZEpLdtwU&t=2m42s

 

It was definitely faster going from 2 to 4, then it was going from 0.5 to 2. I am not the only one seeing this right?

Either that, or the more charge you have, the faster you charge. Hard to tell at this point though.

[chzchan]

214B looks like it has less recovery so it may be the safe thing to use out of 6C in pressure, though you won't be able to continue pressure out of 6C anymore.

 

Charging seems to become faster the longer you hold it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_ZEpLdtwU&t=2m42s

 

It was definitely faster going from 2 to 4, then it was going from 0.5 to 2. I am not the only one seeing this right?

Either that, or the more charge you have, the faster you charge. Hard to tell at this point though.

 

So like the old 2D? I can do some analysis to check it. If it really is, the more charge you have, the faster it fills up, that is pretty great. It would create an incentive to have more charges stocked because it would lessen the risk of getting more of them after blowing a few in neutral if you stored up to 5. That's super interesting.

 

Okay I downloaded the sound from the video and did the sound cue stuff again. So, in total, Tsubaki is charging for 2.37 seconds. 2.37 seconds is around 142 frames. Instead of comparing it to the 1.2 value that I got from earlier in the 2.0 showcase video, lets compare it to the current charge rate.

 

So, in 142 frames, at 1.1 rates, Tsubaki will generate 27700 (3500 + 24200) Tsubakis total which is around 2.8 charges. In the video, she went from around 0.5 charges to 4.3 charges. That is 3.8 charges in 2.37 seconds. If you compare it to the current charge rate, it is a whopping 1.37x faster than the current charge rate.

 

You are correct Daedron. I am currently checking if it is based on how long you hold the button or how much charge you have. This is a bit harder.

[Daedron]

 

214B looks like it has less recovery so it may be the safe thing to use out of 6C in pressure, though you won't be able to continue pressure out of 6C anymore.

 

 

 

So like the old 2D? I can do some analysis to check it. If it really is, the more charge you have, the faster it fills up, that is pretty great. It would create an incentive to have more charges stocked because it would lessen the risk of getting more of them after blowing a few in neutral if you stored up to 5. That's super interesting.

 

Okay I downloaded the sound from the video and did the sound cue stuff again. So, in total, Tsubaki is charging for 2.37 seconds. 2.37 seconds is around 142 frames. Instead of comparing it to the 1.2 value that I got from earlier in the 2.0 showcase video, lets compare it to the current charge rate.

 

So, in 142 frames, at 1.1 rates, Tsubaki will generate 27700 (3500 + 24200) Tsubakis total which is around 2.8 charges. In the video, she went from around 0.5 charges to 4.3 charges. That is 3.8 charges in 2.37 seconds. If you compare it to the current charge rate, it is a whopping 1.37x faster than the current charge rate.

 

You are correct Daedron.

 

 

Nice, very nice indeed. I have a request: In the same match, the Tsubaki charges from 4 to 5 at some point (I believe a bit past the part I linked). Could you analyze it and see if the charge rate is faster than normal? If it is, then we would be correct in assuming that more charge = faster charging, which would be pretty nice to have.

[chzchan]

On it. Hmm, this one will be a bit less precise because the Tsubaki doesn't stop charging upon reaching 5 charges so the audio cue for charge stopping will not be at the very moment charge has stopped being generated.

I'm still going to try.

Okay, well the value in seconds that I got for the sound cue is 1.1 seconds which may be a bit too long. Tsubaki goes from ~3.7 charges to 5 in that time.

Using current values, 1.1 seconds of charging will equate to 12500 (3500 + 9000) Tsubakis which is 1.25 charges. So from 3.7 to 5 is 1.3 which probably means that it is dependent on time held down rather than amount stored because the amount of charges gained in 1.1 seconds is nearly the same, but slightly greater. This just shows that there is a slight acceleration, though.

This one may be super inaccurate, so things still need to be tested. If it is true, we have the current 1.1 charge rate of 250 Tsubakis/frame for the first most likely 7-21 frames of hitting 5D, but then the charge rate increases the longer the button is held instead of going down to 200 Tsubakis/frame and remaining static as it does now.

I will try to figure out the acceleration value.

I am sort of disappointed, though, because that means charge cancel values will remain the same as now which is pretty much ~0.25 charges for doing a charge cancel and dashing at the earliest possible moment which is essentially the recovery of a charge cancel. We'll get rewarded the same for using charge cancel pressure instead of getting the 1.2x charge rate I deduced incorrectly earlier. It's still going to be 4 charge cancels to 1 charge. Oh well. I guess that's alright.

[zaeris]

Heh that this is sounding quite exciting similar to cs2 mechanic although different in a way. I wouldn't mind giving up my neutrality for 5 stocks. Even taking a bit of hit if it takes 3 sec or so for max charge and then you're set for the entire round with max conversion ability. Lol seems likes it's going back to cs2 set up where landing a mid screen super nets you full charges since you just replace your heat resource for stock resource.

[Airk]

So, the more footage of other characters I see, the more convinced I am that our damage is STILL "unexceptional" - at least, without charge.   I haven't seen anyone using charge in combos for super big effect yet though.

 

Hoping for some cool new tech, 'cause otherwise, charge is weak again.  I really wish they'd left j.214D as an overhead.   Seeing Ragna blowing people up with GH because hey look, an overhead that comes out in less than 26 frames is just sadmaking.

[D.R.F.]

So, the more footage of other characters I see, the more convinced I am that our damage is STILL "unexceptional" - at least, without charge. I haven't seen anyone using charge in combos for super big effect yet though.

Hoping for some cool new tech, 'cause otherwise, charge is weak again. I really wish they'd left j.214D as an overhead. Seeing Ragna blowing people up with GH because hey look, an overhead that comes out in less than 26 frames is just sadmaking.

It's only 24 frames and it's super obvious. But hey, niggas can't block so I suppose you are right to be mad about it. I still don't understand why her overhead is so slow, it's not even that hard to see

[TheGreatReptar]

Oh hey, Blade Super>Charge might actually be worth blowing 50 meter for with charge acceleration back~

[Zouf]

It's only 24 frames and it's super obvious. But hey, niggas can't block so I suppose you are right to be mad about it. I still don't understand why her overhead is so slow, it's not even that hard to see

Wasn't TK GH like 17f or something?

 

Also

 

 

lol hitbox

[TheGreatReptar]

If you stopped it on the frame 6A actually became active Kuresu had something stuck out. Of course her reeling animation is going to look funky like 3 frames later.

 

Way to cherry pick 'em

[Zouf]

I know, I just found this funny

[Airk]

It's only 24 frames and it's super obvious. But hey, niggas can't block so I suppose you are right to be mad about it. I still don't understand why her overhead is so slow, it's not even that hard to see

 

24 frames is 'average' speed in this game, but more important, GH can come out after ANY special cancellable move;  You can't anticipate it unless your opponent falls into a pattern.   High level players get hit by it all the time.  It works.  Tsubaki has no equivalent.  Even j.214D overhead would've A) Cost resources, B) Required a jump cancellable move after which you might have some reason to block low (So basically 5B/5A/2A) C) Have much less range.  But I think this is basically Tsubaki being behind the door when good tools were handed out again, so...

 

And yeah, that 6A was clearly hitting the hitbox on something else.

[chzchan]

It's only 24 frames and it's super obvious. But hey, niggas can't block so I suppose you are right to be mad about it. I still don't understand why her overhead is so slow, it's not even that hard to see

GH is not 24 frames if you tiger knee it and it cannot be grabbed out of. It can only be tiger kneed out of 5A, 3C, and 6C, though. He also has another overhead, 6B, so you have 2 of them to look out for on top of his jumping pressure with his cross up potential hit boxes.

GH is strong not because it is fast, though. It is strong because it is a special move so its use is not limited by the revolver action table and it has a ton of range as well as moves Ragna forward incredibly far. Almost any move can be cancelled into GH. Being an average speed overhead does help, though. The trade off here is, of course, that GH and its followup are unsafe on block.

Oh and hell no there is no way to block GH online. It is improssible. Maybe if the planets are aligning or something you can block it.

If j.214D was an overhead, not only would it be slower than GH when tiger kneed, it would only be able to come out after 5A, 5B, and 2C (and 6C ;_; ) because of how little distance it travels. Hell, it would whiff if any of those mentioned normals had been barrier blocked. It would also cost resources. This is if we are using j.214D from 1.1, though.

The way non-followup j.214D looks in the 2.0 footage, not only look like it starts up faster, it also has a much more horizontal descent angle compared to the current j.214D. Also, it can be followed up with 2A midscreen from the looks of it. Damn it would be a great addition to her arsenal if it were an overhead. Looks like it will be forever limited to combo fodder, frame traps, and emergency eject button for our DP that still makes us unsafe.

Also whoops I could have just let Airk do this instead of writing this out on my phone in class.

[Kiba]

If j.214D was an overhead, not only would it be slower than GH when tiger kneed, it would only be able to come out after 5A, 5B, and 2C (and 6C ;_; ) because of how little distance it travels.

 

Don't you mean faster than GH?

[chzchan]

Don't you mean faster than GH?

The flight travel time of j.214D makes it slower. It takes 17 frames (4 + 13) to start the descent, but it does not hit instantly. I'd say that it actually takes 19-21 frames before it connects because of travel time, if it does connect, of course.

This is using 1.1 angle and values, though. I was also comparing it to tiger knee GH which, just like tiger knee j.214D, is limited in use to jump cancellable moves. tk.GH is definitely faster than tk.214D even if you take into account the time it takes tk.GH to hit a crouching opponent because they are probably comparable and tk.GH's superficial startup is 16 (4 + 12).

Ah I really should have specified that I was comparing tk.GH. Sorry about that.

[Airk]

Well, we don't have it, so it kinda doesn't matter.  Sorry for the detour there.   Sad they didn't keep it, but hopefully we'll be seeing some fun tech in the near future.  At the very least, we don't see any worse off!