[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[chzchan]

Yeah, I don't want to trail off either. I know there will be some new tech that'll be discovered.

I'm going to try and figure out what corner oki will look like even if it does require charges in the corner now. Maybe we can get something chargeless out of a crouching confirm near the corner. Who knows. Spending charges for oki will probably be okay now that we can get so much damage chargeless now, and we will also be getting more charges in the matches where we are allowed to charge due to the new acceleration.

I'm already practicing jcc CT on other characters with jump cancellable non-special cancellable moves in anticipation of the 214D jcc CT combos we will be doing in 2.0.

[Airk]

This is not a bad thing, though, as the base chargeless damage we have now is much higher. They brought her minimum damage up, but left her damage with charge relatively the same.

 

Moving this chat out of the combo thread.

 

Anyway, yes, fine, this is a "good" thing, except that we've successfully made charge less important.  We still get what appears to be pretty average damage without it, and... not really much above damage if at all with it.

 

This is not how this character would work.  What you've got here is Arc Sys basically going "Yeah, you don't really need to use your drive, because it doesn't really do very much."  What other character works like that?  That's terrible design.  It's as if Jin had combos that did 3200 damage off 5B without needing to use the D button, and if he did, he gets... oooh, 3500!  Sure, that's a nice improvement for him, since his drive COSTS NOTHING, but FFS.  As long as our drive costs something (which it basically always will, because that's how it works) then it needs to offer some MATERIAL ADVANTAGE;  It needs to be BETTER than other character's drives when we DO use it, because it is limited in a way that is more severe than any other character in the game.

 

+300 damage for a charge is garbage.  I really hope we can do better than this, or that there is some meaningful use for drive moves in neutral.

[chzchan]

I never said that this is what I wanted to be done to Tsubaki. It is actually the exact opposite of what I would have wanted. I'm just trying to adapt to what we have been given because I really am never going to give her up.

 

If you saw the simple diagram sorta thing I made earlier, I would have wanted her stuff with resources to be more powerful and give her both more options and more damage.

 

======

With Charges (damage) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward

With Charges (neutral) Risk : Reward -> Risk : Reward

 

The above is what I truly truly desire. On the surface, the changes that are coming in 2.0 now only make her more shallow of a character which really bothers me. As you mentioned, I hope that her D moves give her way more utility. I swear if they didn't change 623D at all from 1.1 I'm going to cry.

[Kiba]

Stuff on mind:

-CT is more accessible midscreen only if you have charge, i.e 214D jcc CT. This is where the damage seems to kick in. I assume the same will work from a midscreen throw, so something like throw > 214D > jcc CT > 6CC > Air combo (6CC > IAD j.CC into air combo if that's possible)

 

-Damage without charge has improved. Chargeless corner throw combo into 3k is nice. There seems to be a nerf with some 1 charge combos (as Airk pointed out), although I guess it isn't as bad this time around since Tsubaki acquires charge a little more quickly? I dunno. Using 2 charges seems real good.

 

I'm not posting much because I've grown more pensive and I'm just waiting for more footage to release. There's still a lot more combos which need to be explored, so no sweat.

[chzchan]

214D no longer tracking the opponent makes me sad. Just saw Konan do 236D > 214D in neutral under a jumping opponent and it traveled no distance at all. Man that was the most fun shit ever. Oh well.

[Zouf]

Looks like she can't do 6C after j.236D j.214D anymore (seen in Ryo vs Konan video)

 

To be honest i'm terrified at how weak she look. Even Konan seems to struggle a lot with her.

[D.R.F.]

Looks like she can't do 6C after j.236D j.214D anymore (seen in Ryo vs Konan video)

To be honest i'm terrified at how weak she look. Even Konan seems to struggle a lot with her.

Tbh he has been having a hard time for a while

[chzchan]

Yeah, Konan didn't look like he was playing well in the few videos he was in. I see him making simple mistakes that I make all the time.

[zaeris]

Seems like lack of practice to me since you don't see many of new charge-less route. Think I saw him try one dp whiff combo but it drop, so maybe he hasn't work out all the timing yet.

[chzchan]

Well, it's not like the dropped combos. It is the usage of DPs and the height that he was air dashing at when trying to apply jumping pressure. He air dashed right over Tetsuwo a few times and j.CC whiffed a billion times in neutral.

[zaeris]

Anyway I'm loving 6cc iAd jc in non fc combo makes rc a better resource extender. Not too sure 22b charge, new j236d j214d I have a feeling they want a dp whiff follow up

[Zouf]

Tbh he has been having a hard time for a while

He still had 65% winrate with his old card (over 10k matches) and still qualified for Arc Revo

 

He sure shined during the last year of CSEX but he's still pretty solid.

 

Maybe he's a late bloomer and needs more pratice. But I don't know, I don't see anything with this Tsubaki that makes me say "ok THIS is strong". She looks so average right now.

[chzchan]

Well I don't think she's ever felt above average, not talking from experience, though, as my experience with the game before CSE has just been videos.

Though she has received buffs, I don't think they are that exciting because none of them really bring much new to the table in the realm of fixing what is fundamentally wrong with her and the subtle changes and nerfs she has received take away a lot more than you would think they do. It feels like ideas are just being recycled instead of being built anew.

Like I know that I will have just as hard a time in neutral because of frame data and hitbox structure and there doesn't seem to be many new tools that will be useful for closing distance safely, applying pressure, or maintaining oki. It will probably be just as hard to play her as it is now by the looks of it. In fact, it may be even more difficult to play her in 2.0 because of the possible loss of what few options she had to stay on her opponent and catch them after a knockdown with the loss of long 22B slide and the j.236A corner oki.

Won't stop me from playing her, though.

[zaeris]

Until you try club broken lol

With the like many early starter sometimes it does take a while. Others character stands out but perhaps tsubaki is techy and will take long until she's has been fully discovered. Btw how did she lose corner j236a oki

[Zouf]

It's highly doubtful that a straight rushdown character like Tsubaki has any super secret tech.

 

They still haven't fixed 5BB. It whiffed after a single 2A from Konan, lol.

[zaeris]

Well yes I am being wishful, trying to put my faith that after 4 revision they may have finally gotten it right =x

I don't mind if the opponents character is strong but rather the problem is tsubaki herself.

[Kiba]

From Spinoza's twitter:

 

FC 3CC > 5CC > delay 2C > j.CC > 5CC > delay 2C > 214B > 5C> 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A = 4030 damage. That's 400 more damage from the standard FC 3C combo in 1.1

[chzchan]

Does this mean they upped 5CC's untech time on air hit, or did they make it launch the opponent lower?

[Zouf]

It looks like a universal change that almost all moves launch lower than before.

 

Not sure what arcsys tried to do with this, probably more juggle oriented combos and less air to air ones

[chzchan]

I have been reading people point out that the gravity in the game may have changed, but I really doubt that.

[Kiba]

Hima (Valk/Terumi player) said that the gravity seems stronger in general, but that was during the loketest. Even so there's a high possibility that it could have changed from 1.1. If you look at the combo Zouf posted earlier from Spinoza, you can say that gravity might have changed since 5C > 2C > j.B > j.CC > 5C works, and that wasn't a FC combo, unlike the one I posted.

I think I saw another character use some kind of jump combo like that. Might have been Noel or Litchi, I cannot remember unfortunately.

[Airk]

Maybe the fact that we can do an IAD off 6CC (and, indeed, all the general talk of stuff 'floating lower') fits in with that?

[Kiba]

Hmm I don't think so. I think the reason 6CC > IAD j.CC works is solely because of its increased untechable time, so if it wasn't for that, 6CC > IAD j.CC still wouldn't work unless it was FC as required.

[chzchan]

Yeah with the new j.B route the increased gravity may make sense because j.B currently lifts the opponent when compared to j.C.

I just thought they increased untech time even though I expected the complete opposite because I thought the IAD combo would be dead.

I wonder how the increased gravity will affect other characters if it is true.

[Zouf]

Is mugen still a thing?

 

Not like I like it so much (I actually hate this DD, due to his multiple flaws), but it feels nice when you land a 6k combo with it.

 

I wonder if they tweaked OD mugen, since they said every DD would get an OD version. I sure hope it's not just "it decreases slower". They wouldn't do that, would they?