[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[Airk]

Or both.

True, but let's not get our hopes up.

 

what the fuck...?

I suspect this is just the result of the apparently across the board reduction in time of S starters - the combo timer probably just runs out. I expect this means that jab combos are going to be REALLY weak in CP2.

It could be used in combos on airborne targets to get in a 6C after the wallbounce. It could be used to OTG after 22D or j.214D. It could be used in mid screen combos to setup resets. It could be used to side switch when your back is to the wall. Then there's also the stuff together with 421D, but I am mostly talking about what it can do alone.

I hope not; The last thing we need is another D-special that is only for combos. =/

[chzchan]

Or both.

Our 5A hits crouchers and Tsubaki has a run-type dash so I really doubt that it will get its frame advantage buffed. 2B is more likely to get buffed because it is in the bin down there with Tsubaki's absolute worst normals and it isn't 6A because Arc will NEVER buff 6A.

I hope not; The last thing we need is another D-special that is only for combos. =/

Yeah, boy would I love another move like 623D. Even j.236D that no longer needs to be used in neutral still has that tiny bit of utility outside of Mugen combos or combos involving j.214D as a side-switching move with the j.214B whiff into 2B route. I guess 623D has it's extra invuln and active frames too, but no hell no I shouldn't be defending it. I shouldn't have even tried to defend j.236D either dammit. Why do all of Tsubaki's D moves have to suck?

I just hope that 236D either maintains some of its utility that it is more than likely losing or brings something completely new to the table to make up for it. It will still probably have its movement speed and farther end positioning compared to 236C going for it, but that should not be the only thing that makes it special. The way it is being described does not bring my hopes up at all.

[Daedron]

6A might be faster as well, we don't know. it's impossible to tell apart a 24 frame startup from 26 frames unless you record it or somehow incorporate it into a combo that didn't work before...but we don't actually have any :V

[Zouf]

I suspect this is just the result of the apparently across the board reduction in time of S starters - the combo timer probably just runs out. I expect this means that jab combos are going to be REALLY weak in CP2.

 

Oh ok i thought they'd nerfed this combo and I was like "but why?"

[chzchan]

 

I suspect this is just the result of the apparently across the board reduction in time of S starters - the combo timer probably just runs out. I expect this means that jab combos are going to be REALLY weak in CP2.

 

I just realized. There goes using my gimmick in the corner off of 5/2A. Maybe I can adjust it when I have the new timer to work with. Ah what else had utility in the length of S starter combos?

 

 

6A might be faster as well, we don't know. it's impossible to tell apart a 24 frame startup from 26 frames unless you record it or somehow incorporate it into a combo that didn't work before...but we don't actually have any :V

 

There are combos that exist that use 6A. They just are not good or efficient. It is a shame because 6A has a pretty good P2 value and damage. It was either Konan or Kuresu I saw end some combos with 6A for some reason. Pretty sure it was after a j.214D in the corner.

 

I guess there are the Command Grab > Rapid combos.

 

 

just for reference the part mentioning 5d, 2d and jd are not changes but the player themselves wishing for it to be different.

anyway I will list some changes but chzchn attempt is quite close, still my friend couldnt work out which special they are referring to since he doesnt play tsubaki.

 

Also forgot to thank you for these. Thanks man.

[JyakotuKurayami]

I'm not really liking these changes for Tsubaki. I'm really worried. But I'm trying to b patient and not overreact until tests are done and the official change list comes out. ArcSys really needs to make the charges more viable for Tsubaki. If you're going to give a character some kind of additional meter gimmick, make it worthwhile and make it so opponents change up their strategy when you have meter at your dispoal.

[chzchan]

I'm not really liking them either, but I don't know the exact specifications of a good number of the changes. I keep reading on twitter how Tsubaki players are reacting positively to the changes and I keep trying to figure out what because they almost never say what they are.

In the case of Spinoza 421D is probably really really good in 2.0 but I don't know in what way aside from the acceleration. There does not seem to be that negative of a reaction to 6C no longer being jump cancellable and the IAD combo no longer working, so there has to be something has caught their attention that they aren't talking about.

I see 5A, 2A, and 2B mentioned a lot so they might have been massively buffed, but I don't think that is big enough to keep them from being openly angry about the loss of the IAD combo.

And also 22B no longer causing slide? Why isn't there more information on this? From the stuff I have been reading they are very neutral about it which makes me really curious. I mean, it must cause something just as good if not better than slide if it isn't being discussed that much for being such a supposedly huge change.

I just want more information. Just thinking about all the things I would write down if I had gone to the loketest that I would report straight to here. Man I really wish I had the ability to do so.

[Airk]

I don't really understand what you're so upset about.  6C jump cancel is pretty trivial, IAD combo is just a combo route change - that's all but completely irrelevant since combo routes get rejiggered every release anyway.  22B "lack of slide" isn't even something that we know definitively is a thing, and frankly, it makes no difference at all as long as the knockdown time is more or less the same. 

 

Compared to the beatdown most other characters seem to be getting, I don't really see what cause we have for complaint.  Projectile is apparently improved in some meaningful way, j.214D overhead is huge. 

 

And at the end of the day, we don't even have real translations of this stuff.

 

I mean heck, Kiba knows I'm usually one of the first to complain about stuff, but this stuff really doesn't seem very alarming after, say, the CS2 -> Extend stuff.

[Zouf]

I second that.

 

But j.214D being overhead isn't huge. It's ok. Heck it's even normal.

 

I don't really care about the 421D change btw. Getting one charge is a tedious work in this version, and i don't really feel like wasting one for this move.

 

6C not jump canceallable is annoying. I like to autopilot 5B/5C > 6C when i can. Guess i'll need to change my playstyle accordingly

[Kiba]

But j.214D being overhead isn't huge. It's ok. Heck it's even normal.

 

Next thing you know, Zouf is abusing it in the next video he posts in the critique thread when 2.0 arrives.

 

6C not jump canceallable is annoying. I like to autopilot 5B/5C > 6C when i can. Guess i'll need to change my playstyle accordingly

 

Shouldn't need to use 6C on block tbh.

[zaeris]

just a reminder that it says a guarded 6c is not jump cancellable, It probably refers to only on block but not on hit.

regarding j214x you can create some new KD set up into j214 due to its highly active frames , anyway, it be nice to see some new direction with tsubaki, atm it seems like she's not much different minus a few things.

[Errol]

i don't even want iad combo anymore really. time for something new.

 

like j214a taking them to the ground slower and being able to pick up with 5c. 421D and especially J214D changes will be big. there are some nerfs but much less than some other characters. all standard chars seem to be looking good relatively.

[Zouf]

Next thing you know, Zouf is abusing it in the next video he posts in the critique thread when 2.0 arrives.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, i like this buff, but I find it strange we had to wait so long before it happens. It's not even godlike, it's just strong. Jin had it since the first day.

[Airk]

Don't get me wrong, i like this buff, but I find it strange we had to wait so long before it happens. It's not even godlike, it's just strong. Jin had it since the first day.

 

Just because it's something we should have had for ages doesn't mean it's not a big deal that we finally GOT IT.

[zaeris]

going along the jin train, he still has j.b and j2c which are both meterless option ^^, tsubaki still has a long way to catch up to her nii-san

[chzchan]

I don't really understand what you're so upset about.

 

I'm not upset about the changes themselves. I am upset about the lack of definitive information about the changes. Sorry if I came off as super duper angry about losing a few things that I barely use. I just want more data.

[Zouf]

going along the jin train, he still has j.b and j2c which are both meterless option ^^, tsubaki still has a long way to catch up to her nii-san

To be fair, we got j.CC. While it's not as broken as j2c, it's still a good option.

[Airk]

going along the jin train, he still has j.b and j2c which are both meterless option ^^, tsubaki still has a long way to catch up to her nii-san

I don't understand why people are focusing on j.214D as being a "third overhead" or something for jump ins. I think what makes it useful is the opportunity to use it as a TK overhead, even if it's just in the corner. If you want to do 0-3 overheads, you can already pretty much do it with j.B > j.C > j.CC, though you may have to dash.

[TeeJay]

yeah, if anything, I miss not having a wider hitbox jump in that won't whiff at odd spaces-- j.b crossup range is a bit specific. I wonder if a controllable ground orb would make Tsubaki too good in neutral. 

[zaeris]

I don't understand why people are focusing on j.214D as being a "third overhead" or something for jump ins. I think what makes it useful is the opportunity to use it as a TK overhead, even if it's just in the corner. If you want to do 0-3 overheads, you can already pretty much do it with j.B > j.C > j.CC, though you may have to dash.

it is probably due to j214 hit box being not as great for TK, as Chzchan put it you need to do it more forward and higher as a tk for it to hit, therefore the higher and forward you do it, the more visable frame there is and it becomes more reactable. at least with nu tk crescent you can do it at the mimimum hight so it would be 17 frames + jump start up. And of ccourse if its block you be punish I guess that is a trade off, but I will wait for vids.

I'm looking at jc land tk crescent but depending on hit box it might not be effective or work in general as a great mix up but just a mix up, now a cross over overhead off a jump normal is much more valuable, being meterless (free),

It is likely that j214 is design more of to be a set up than block string. those jb jc jcc string are all from the jumping position, in terms of mix up there is only one, since tsubaki 2b is too slow they probably have more chance reacting low, there is like less reason to hold down back vs tsubaki but instead 9 or 7. Anyway I'm kinda happy that we got something, like something decent, but I don't value it high compare to for example if 5b went to 9frames and 1+ again I be real ecstatic. Atm j214 is a fair game punishable overhead being not so great but not so bad.

[Errol]

you can do j214D at minimum height.

If you have dash momentum you can even do 5a>5b>j214D on someone that is barriering and hit them while frametrapping, which is of course also instant overhead speed. or raw, or after 5a, or after 5b, or whatever.

Yeah I don't know what else to say.

[zaeris]

you can do j214D at minimum height.

If you have dash momentum you can even do 5a>5b>j214D on someone that is barriering and hit them while frametrapping, which is of course also instant overhead speed. or raw, or after 5a, or after 5b, or whatever.

Yeah I don't know what else to say.

guess I will wait for vids for verdict on this one.

[Kiba]

Just wanted to say that the changes are nice for the fact that it seems to eliminate Tsubaki's main character specific stuff which are annoying.

 

The 6C > j.D > j.C combos, and the 623C > j.214A/B(w) > 5A/5C combos (which was made easier).

[chzchan]

623C > j.214A/B(w) > 5A/5C combos (which was made easier).

 

Are there any specifics on how these were made easier? Where did you get this information from?

 

I want to start making a list like I have seen a few other characters have been getting, but the only concrete information I have got has come from zaeris getting his friend to translate all the various twitter posts I pasted here.

[Kiba]

Through JP players over twitter but that's all through translations and could be inaccurate.

 

In fact this is why I haven't been saying much on the changes. Not alot of information or specifics.