[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[Zouf]

How exactly are we supposed to add constructive post here when we can't even play the game?

 

What we see in the few videos out there is only the upper layer of the iceberg, and there are a lot of things we're assuming right that are actually wrong.

 

ANYWAY, I've been thinking about how hard it will be to land our Astral. Most of the setups to do it in 1.1 have been nerfed (22D doesn't wallbounce anymore, j.236D j.214D doesn't launch, j.214D has much less untech time....). It was one of the few astral that actually had its uses. I hope we'll have some new setups (like 214D jcc astral?)

[Kiba]

How exactly are we supposed to add constructive post here when we can't even play the game?

 

What we see in the few videos out there is only the upper layer of the iceberg, and there are a lot of things we're assuming right that are actually wrong.

 

It is a common habit for people to make assumptions based on what they see in the videos. Errol is shedding light on the assumptions, so I really don't understand how you can't see that as being constructive. I'm sure if Errol didn't post, people would just be sinking deeper into this big web of assumptions. Looks at this example:

 

A says: 2B looks more safe on block

B says: Maybe it is because bla bla bla....

C says: It can't be because bla bla bla

 

That continues endlessly. Now apply the current scenario:

 

Chzchan talks about how good 22 > 6C is and how he may have some gimmicks for it.

Errol comes and says it's extremely hard to do and advises against its use because of character specific stuff / hitstun decay / tight timing

 

So it ends there. That's the difference. He's even backed it up with the Japanese players take on it. I'd have that any day over than people continuously assuming stuff without solid evidence.This is exactly why I encourage people who do not have access to the game to tread carefully when making statements about these things. Heck this is why I'm really quiet. Right now I just post combos and videos.

 

You can do all the analysis when the game hits. No use wracking your heads around it now.

[Airk]

My biggest gripe with this conversation is that it took Errol THREE POSTS to explain any why's and wherefores.  It went like this:

 

Chzchan: This is exciting! Combos!

Errol: They're hard.

Chzchan: Well, there's gotta be something...

Errol: Fuck you, I'm not explaining. (No, seriously, that's pretty much what the second post comes down to.)

Chzchan: ....

Errol: Okay, fine, you have pushed me to the wall, now I must actually explain.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with either type of discussion (YMMV), but how that discussion was executed really upset me, and I think if something needs to be moderated, it's BEHAVIOR, not content.  I don't know where all this sudden anger is coming from. =/  For the longest time this was the most civil place on Dustloop.

[bakahyl]

For me it all depends on what you want to use.

If you take the time to learn the harder combos, then more power to you. Even if these combos don't end being used much (like Mu's harder but cooler looking combo with multiple charged lasers), it's probably more satisfying for pulling those off and the reward might be slightly higher damage and heatgain

But some people rather use easier combos for being more practical, because under pressure you can make mistakes more easily and they don't want to risk dropping combos

 

Either way, nobody is wrong for doing whatever they want

[chzchan]

Yeah, Tsubaki Thread did not change at all. We still have those dedicated guys doing great stuffs like Kiba, Daedron or BatousaiJ and a lot of people always complaining about how bad she is and will remain. If someone is disappointed by how Tsubaki works in BBCP (in general) why not dropping her and try a more cheaper, satisfying and easier character? There is Celica coming soon.

I seriously believe this is one of his strongest version since BBCS 2.0 and I hated some of her changes in BBCP that is why I dropped her. I love and still play as her sometimes but Tsubaki Thread is one the best and well-organised of this forum, some comments can just stop a newcommer to try her. 

 

What is the point or the goal of reminding everytime everyone on Tsubaki forum that she sucks and is worthless? Which is not even true (anymore I guess) 

 

I'm in far too deep to even attempt to crawl out at this point, but that is just an excuse. What keeps me playing her is a composite of a lot of things.

 

The way she works when the opponent lets her game run is how I have grown used to playing. Cycling through pressure as a rushdown character and being reliant on a resource is just fun for me. I love spending hours in training mode trying to create things that people have never seen before regardless of how effective they are. I like trying as hard as I can to make up for where her faults are and just coming up with new ways to approach different situations all the time. I guess this can be done with any character, but I find joy in doing so with this one. Even if I complain all the time and continuously repeat "It's hopeless, how the hell do you deal with this, why can't I win against X, etc." I'm usually just joking around or trying to instigate conversation.

 

Probably one of the most satisfying things about playing her, at least the way I play her, is the responses I get from my opponent. "How in the hell did you do that?" "Seriously what the fuck are you doing?" "Why did I get hit by that?" "Tsubaki has resets?" That is what truly makes me happy. If I was playing Carl, Kokonoe, or Litchi for example, even if I pulled off something new or strange while playing, the opponent would sort of expect that to happen and not really think much of it because they know that each of those characters has endless depth. When someone gets obliterated by 4 different Tsubaki resets in a row, their attention is caught because she is supposedly a fairly shallow character. Whether I win or lose, a lot of my opponents are curious about all the supposedly new things I do and I am more than happy to explain exactly why things happen. Hatemail is the best because I get to go in depth into exactly what decision the opponent made wrong and why what I did worked, though I have been receiving more positive remarks both online and offline recently.

 

This won't really change much in 2.0 and you are right about her being stronger. I guess the walls of complaints act as thicker a barrier to entry than character difficulty does so we could all stop complaining once in a while. I just look forward to labbing for hours and hours when 2.0 comes out to do exactly what I do now and see if I can create any new/original knowledge or gimmicks along the way and sort of forge Tsubaki some artificial depth. I did say I was in too deep above, but it is really funny because with what I do I just keep digging myself in deeper.

[Kiba]

If someone is disappointed by how Tsubaki works in BBCP (in general) why not dropping her and try a more cheaper, satisfying and easier character? There is Celica coming soon.

 

Honestly not sure that Celica would be a good fit lol.

 

stuff

 

I can agree Errol could have summed it up in one post. Would've saved time. Eh.

 

For me it all depends on what you want to use.

 

It's pretty much this. When the game comes, if you can do that 22 > 6C combo then kudos to you. I've said this time and time again, but just use whatever works for you. I just use what I'm comfortable with and although I do like some harder combos I won't push my limits that much. Consistency is important.

[chzchan]

Will the jcc stuff be considered pushing your limits? Hahaha.

[Kiba]

The 214D > jcc > CT you mean? I have read it's not hard to perform, but I have no idea how it'll go with me. It'll be nice to do because of the damage boost. We'll see.

[Airk]

Yeah, it's a little bit silly, at  this point, to speculate too much on "will you or won't you use combo X?" because the answer is generally going to be "Well, I'm going to put in what I feel is an appropriate amount of time in the training room, and if the combo ends up stable enough, I'll use it." and that's a squishy, organic answer that's going to be different for everyone.

 

I still drop super lame combos in CP (seriously, last night I dropped a Stuff > 214B > jc > j.C that would've killed.), mostly as a result of just not having played it enough, and I have a tough time confirming into some others.  but as time goes on, I improve and I use more combos. I don't think there's a magic line for "This combo is just too hard for anyone to use." though maybe there is with netplay (Screw you, CP netplay, Extend was better. Or maybe Xbox Live was better, but yuk.) depending on your connection.

 

tldr; "It depends"

[Errol]

Yeah, right.

 

But keep debating over a combo route no one has ever tried once here, this really adds value to this thread indeed.

 

Someone here has tried it more than once though.

 

My biggest gripe with this conversation is that it took Errol THREE POSTS to explain any why's and wherefores.  It went like this:

 

Chzchan: This is exciting! Combos!

Errol: They're hard.

Chzchan: Well, there's gotta be something...

Errol: Fuck you, I'm not explaining. (No, seriously, that's pretty much what the second post comes down to.)

Chzchan: ....

Errol: Okay, fine, you have pushed me to the wall, now I must actually explain.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with either type of discussion (YMMV), but how that discussion was executed really upset me, and I think if something needs to be moderated, it's BEHAVIOR, not content.  I don't know where all this sudden anger is coming from. =/  For the longest time this was the most civil place on Dustloop.

 

not exactly. I'm fine with chzchan. I'm not so fine with being told some bullshit about underestimating people's ability to do difficult things. This is the kind of shit that makes me come here less and less.

 

By now, you guys should know I read everything that the japanese tsubaki players say on twitter. Again chzchan is ok which is why I posted a followup. Not all of these routes have gotten discussion, and I haven't tried all of them. Like I said, I personally would have liked to know how bad some of the routes in CP really were, but on that there was also little discussion.  

 

Make sense?

[Airk]

Still doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll take your word for it.

[Errol]

My first post was a warning to be cautious of taking what you see to be practical. There because I hated the situation with CP1, short because this forum sucks.

My second post was because of zaeris, not chz. 

My third post was explaining to chz who wanted more.

[zaeris]

lol bringing up my post?

regardless of the extremity of the combo hard or not, no one is in a position to tell someone they shouldn't try something. in the end it is there their choice, this has been echo many times so i would leave it here.

[Eshi]

 If someone is disappointed by how Tsubaki works in BBCP (in general) why not dropping her and try a more cheaper, satisfying and easier character? There is Celica coming soon.

 

Initial impressions of Celica are really bad, like multiple top players putting her in bottom tier bad. Considerably worse than Tsubaki for sure.

[Errol]

lol bringing up my post?

regardless of the extremity of the combo hard or not, no one is in a position to tell someone they shouldn't try something. in the end it is there their choice, this has been echo many times so i would leave it here.

 

We shouldn't just leave it here.  People can do whatever they want, you experiment in training mode and try to find combo routes and try to see if they're stable things you can use in matches. This is how characters develop. 

 

But its just wrong to say that no one should tell someone they shouldn't try to do something. If someone I respect tells me I shouldn't be trying to do something, I respect it. I've explored some of this stuff. I'm speaking from a position of knowledge when I talk about these combo parts. to post about it and get 'learn advanced input' is the kind of ignorance that makes me not post here. The hardest stuff in blazblue is hard because advanced input doesn't work for it at all. 

[Tsubaki 5B]

umm i feel tsubaki is looking to be more on the defensive side this time around what do you guys think?

[Airk]

Not sure why you'd think that;  Very little seems to have changed about her neutral game other than 236D being safer, and her DP got lightly nerfed in that the reward you get from a DP with 2 charges went from like 2700 to like 1500.  Oh, and the command grab does better damage now. 

 

If anything, I feel like that adds up to a more OFFENSIVE character.

[Monarch]

Oh wait really? Command grab buff?

[Tsubaki 5B]

guess your right lol yea that command grab does 1200dmg now idk why i felt that her overall dmg went down like i thought she would be CH heavy guess i misinterpreted her changes

[chzchan]

Well, her punishes are her true source of damage in BBCP as she gains access to better prorating moves to use earlier in a combo through the routes that become available on CH. What makes them seemingly strong is the fact that a majority of her moves prorate like shit. This would turn a confirm that would net 1.5-1.8k midscreen into a confirm that gets her 3k+ even without resources. Her punishes are strong and they will stay strong in 2.0, and get even stronger in fact.

There is a subtlety to note here, though. What I have been thinking from watching the videos, reading Japanese Tsubaki twitter posts, and looking at the proration and damage table from the Tsubaki combo video I am going to repost below is that even though she has become stronger, the Δdamage from having resources, getting hits in at certain positions, or scoring a counter hit has gone down.

They boosted nearly all of Tsubaki's P2 values so that her damage doesn't deteriorate into nothing after getting in multiple hits like it does right now. This drastically increased her damage, though so did a few other things like knockback adjustments and the like so that combo routes are more consistent and do not require badly prorating jabs to work. This is amazing. She has real damage now, but something to take notice of is that she probably won't get that much more damage normally out of having conditions met like she does right now.

Just looking at the chart, notice how all of her D moves have had their damage reduced. Though their P2s have been slightly improved or left alone entirely, the decrease in their base damage means that the diminishing returns from using them will be even more prevalent than now. There is another thing that should be given some attention. Notice how 6C and 6CC have both had their base damage reduced. This means that the difference in damage between a punish and a regular combo will be smaller. The 5BB > 5CC starter midscreen is confirmed for ~3.2k, and if you look here at the combo video, even the super difficult d22 > 5D > 6C combo path in the corner only adds on 200 more damage compared to the combo that can be used anywhere on the screen.

So, again, her overall damage has been increased, so she can do big boy damage regularly, but her Δdamage has been generally decreased. There are a few instances where the Δdamage is significant like with the new 214D > jcc > CT route, but most of the new routes involving any condition have a smaller Δdamage than the current game.

[Zouf]

She lost corner damage but she gained tons of damage midscreen.

 

Not bad of a trade I guess.

[chzchan]

Yeah, originally I thought it just applied to screen placement and maybe IG usage, but now I know it also sort of also applies to punishes after seeing the damage and proration chart.

[Tsubaki 5B]

ah ok thanks for that man well considering we have better mid-screen dmg than in the corner i feel tsubaki does best in the corner especially with 214 D or C and a good spaced 6b i know it's not much but it did help and actually kept them in there were as mid screen applying pressure sometime feels like your delaying the inevitable ya know? well sorry for the long and dumb post haha

[chzchan]

Nah, it's fine man. I really wish she got buffed in a different way, but I can't say no to damage. I really wish there were more ways to maintain pressure and keep people from leaving our pressure. We will be even more limited in what we will be able to do to stay on our opponent with the loss of 6C jump cancellability on block with how easy it is to push Tsubaki out with barrier. I have been hearing that barrier drains faster in 2.0, though that is just a rumor. 

[Airk]

Yeah; Right now she looks better, but less interesting.  Which is a real shame. =/ 

 

Have we seen anyone do anything with Install Super yet?  That's where a lot of big damage punishes have historically come from.  Though I guess looking at those proration/damage numbers, we're looking at substantially less damage on something like 5C (CH) > 6C > Install > 421D > 236D > 214D > 22D > Stuff because 5C and 6C are basically exactly the same (tiny bit more damage on 5C) and 421D > 236D prorates more and does less damage, and 214D and 22D both do less damage (though prorate better, so maybe things will work out a little better there, though probably not enough to make up for 421D > 236D going from 99P2 to essentially 92P2.)

 

So I expect, depending on how D moves are modified in Install this time (IF they are) that we've probably lost some damage on this sort of 'big punish' situation too.

 

Could be worse, but just doesn't look very exciting.

 

Edit: And oh, yeah, Frost Monarch - Command Grab does a whopping 1200 now instead of 960. :P  Which actually seems to be a pretty surprising psychological buff.