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Persona to Guilty Gear Questions

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(Sorry If I'm not meant to make new topics for things like this, I'm new to using forums and the FAQ thread said it was for non-gameplay questions so I didn't want to ask it there)

Hi! So I'm a Persona player and I'm kinda interested in Guilty Gear because I like old school thrash metal, heard some neat things about how the game works, and Potemkin looks like he was made for me to play him. I read the stickyed gameplay FAQ but I still have a few questions in relation to transitioning from games(you can answer with how it is in Xrd or +R)

  • What is Dust? I know it's an attack but does it have any common properties (ie like D attacks in Persona often being "Gimmicky" or HP in SF usually being slow but strong)
  • How tight is the input for DP/623, double qc/236236, and 360/63214789 motions in these games?
  • I heard during Smash Bros Melee Finals at EVO 2013 that Guilty Gear has "Free Jazz" combos like Smash, basically, in Smash Combos are done off impulse and knowledge of the game rather then muscle memory from being in training mode. To what extent is this true in GG?
  • I own AC+, how radically different is +R/Xrd from it and can me and my friends use it as a leeway into the series?
  • How far is the tier gap in this game? Eventhubs says Potemkin is low tier in +R and SRK says Bridget is low tier, I'm interested in playing both, is the tier gap so high that there is a point where characters are so outclassed they are "unviable" to win with?

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Dust, which is the D button, is very similar in function to P4U's AB. For example, 5D in GG is a universal overhead, and 2D is a universal low. As you're aware, 5AB in P4U is a universal overhead, and 2AB is a universal low. Just like 5AB in Persona, 5D in GG launches the opponent and you can do an air combo (Dust gains a wallsplat in Xrd, like AB~D in P4U).

I wouldn't necessarily say that the inputs in this game are too strict. I haven't had any issues with inputs.

The gap between tiers in GG isn't that large. Any character has a good chance at winning in this game. I believe that everyone would corroborate this opinion.

+R is my first competitive experience with GG, so I can't really tell you how different it is from AC. I don't think it's that much different, but playing the most recent version would be advised if you're going to be competitive. I know that Justice and Kliff became playable, balanced chars in +R.

Can't really comment on the combo question.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

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\m/ Thrash \m/

 

I'll just try to answer the ones that Elochai didn't already explain.

 

+R and AC can range from very different to very similar. For example, Sol plays pretty similar in both games, but Baiken is so different that I feel like I can't play her at all in +R anymore. It's really going to depend on the character you pick. Potemkin is pretty different, but I don't think Bridget changed very much.

 

Again, the combo question is character dependent. Sol is exactly what you said, while others are more just muscle memory. I wouldn't really consider Faust's combos as "free jazz," for example, but I don't really play Faust so maybe someone else will correct me. That said, training mode muscle memory is always going to be crucial, even for "free jazz" characters like Sol. Sidewinder loops take practice, but applying them is very situation dependent.

 

I'd also like to reiterate what Elochai said about the tiers. The gaps are not very big. You can pick bottom tier and still win tournaments.

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(Sorry If I'm not meant to make new topics for things like this, I'm new to using forums and the FAQ thread said it was for non-gameplay questions so I didn't want to ask it there)

Hi! So I'm a Persona player and I'm kinda interested in Guilty Gear because I like old school thrash metal, heard some neat things about how the game works, and Potemkin looks like he was made for me to play him. I read the stickyed gameplay FAQ but I still have a few questions in relation to transitioning from games(you can answer with how it is in Xrd or +R)

  • What is Dust? I know it's an attack but does it have any common properties (ie like D attacks in Persona often being "Gimmicky" or HP in SF usually being slow but strong)
  • How tight is the input for DP/623, double qc/236236, and 360/63214789 motions in these games?
  • I heard during Smash Bros Melee Finals at EVO 2013 that Guilty Gear has "Free Jazz" combos like Smash, basically, in Smash Combos are done off impulse and knowledge of the game rather then muscle memory from being in training mode. To what extent is this true in GG?
  • I own AC+, how radically different is +R/Xrd from it and can me and my friends use it as a leeway into the series?
  • How far is the tier gap in this game? Eventhubs says Potemkin is low tier in +R and SRK says Bridget is low tier, I'm interested in playing both, is the tier gap so high that there is a point where characters are so outclassed they are "unviable" to win with?

 

- Dust is generally like Persona's 5AB, but a little more versatile and more like a normal move.  There's also air Dust, which usually is a strong move with big knockback and big hitstun, though for some characters it's a bit different (Robo-Ky).

- Input windows are tight but very fair.  I think GG has a perfect amount of input leniency.

- Re: "Free Jazz" combos: This is very true and one of my favorite things about GG.  This is a result of GG's guard gauge, which is a mechanic entirely unique to GG.  It's also slightly related to GG's damage scaling system, which rewards smart decisions very heavily and long combos significantly less so than games like BB and P4, which encourages players to go for crazy mixups rather than spamming optimal combo starters.

- AC+ and +R are very similar (though +R is pretty unquestionably the better game).  Xrd however is a pretty different beast in terms of gameflow.  That said, you'll still have a significant leg up on people who have never played GG before.  You can definitely use +R to ease into Xrd.

- Tier gap in the later XX games is pretty minimal.  None of the characters are unviable and none of them are dominating.  Personally I think GG has been the most balanced fighter in town since #Reload.  Some matchups have clear advantages and disadvantages, but thanks to the game's universal toolset and reward system they're never insurmountable.

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Going to throw in my 2 cents in no particular order.

 

 

Tier Placement:  Guilty Gear AC and +R are pretty balanced.  There are some rough matchups in there like I-No vs May in AC (better in +R) or ABA vs Justice in +R, which are around the 7-3 mark (which is still really good compared to matchups like Roy vs Ganondorf in Melee).  Overall, a character like Bridget who's considered near the bottom is perfectly playable at high level and can win tournaments against the top characters.   Hell, Bridget has unblockable setups, a cancelable multi-hit DP, mobility, and range.  Sounds like he should be super good right?  Potemkin being low tier though... he looks weak in Xrd, but I thought his nerfs were somewhat elegant going from AC to +R.  He still gets to combo off of Slidehead, but it costs him meter.  He doesn't get 36% meter for the knockdown off of Heat Knuckle anymore which is probably cool since he doesn't build 50% meter off of a BnB that does 35% damage while giving good oki.  6H into Slidehead isn't as tight anymore so it's not as much of a braindead trap that screws you up for mistiming your IB > backdash by 1-2 frames.  He still hits like a damn truck with APB loop, still has his strong mixup options, can faint Judge Gauntlet I think?  Also, more health because that was universally buffed, which helps him out as he has high defense.  I barely get to play the game, but I have no idea why someone would say he's bottom in +R when he's still really strong.  He just has to work a little harder.

 

Input Leniency:  Feels good.  Games like BB have that "hold to repeat input for 3 frames" thing which isn't in AC/+R, but AC/+R have Negative Edge which still gives you a 2 frame window on at least the button press.  The stick movement feels tight enough that you don't get bullshit you don't want, but isn't so tight that you can't hit an input.

 

 

AC vs +R and Xrd:  Xrd is pretty different, but +R and AC are very similar.  +R had some universal changes like increased health which makes matches take a little longer, and characters were reworked, but the majority of the characters play similarly to how they did in AC, with some new tools added.  You're fine playing AC.

 

 

Dust:  It's really simple.  5D (or neutral D) is a universal overhead (everyone's standing D hits high).  2D (or crouching D) is a universal low that knocks down, except for Robo-Ky (his has some fancy use, but his 2S is a low that knocks down to compensate).  Jumping Dust moves tend to have different properties to them (I-No's j.D causes her to float while landing and fall when used while rising, making it a mixup tool) and all of them have additional landing recovery (in GG, most air normals have 0 landing recovery).  Force Breaks are special moves that consume meter, and are used by doing an input with the D button.  For example, Anji has a projectile move that moves forward until it either fades or makes contact with the opponent, then bounces and lands on their head a half-second later if it makes contact.  With the FB version, the landing part hits overhead, which sets up some strong high/low mixup.

 

 

Jazz Combos:  Smash is kinda crazy in that you have to read DI in order to combo in most cases, though in some cases you're guaranteed a follow up if a move hits, although you'll get a way better follow up if you risk something that requires a DI read.  With GG, there are some cases where you have to adjust on the fly based on what you're seeing (I-No needs to adjust her combos based on where the opponent is on the screen when she lands certain attacks), but for the most part they're referring to something a little different.  You still have some optimized rote-memorization combos, but the opponent has the ability to attempt a burst, which is a 0-damage attack with strike-invulnerability that can be used during hit or block stun.  This is similar to how DI works in Smash, in that you can use it to attempt to escape damage, but it also has enough startup time that you can bait and punish an attempt, usually at the cost of optimizing your combo (you either drop it or use a significantly weaker version).  GG lets you chain most moves in ascending order, so P > K > S > H > D, though they don't always work, and/or they'll chain but wont combo.  The chains occur during a move's "active" frames, so in some cases you might delay the next attack by a few frames for various reasons like baiting a Slashback (it's kinda like 3S parry).  You might go into a move that's different from the damage optimized move because it might go under a burst and give you a reset even though it wouldn't have comboed.  On top of this, you have the ability to cancel some moves during specific windows on hit OR whiff, as well as the ability to cancel some moves on hit/block so you can go into whatever follow-up you want.  A great example of this is Order Sol's 2H, which is a crouching overhead that can't cancel into anything, but has enough stun on counter-hit to go into a combo, and has lower body invincibility so that it beats lows (In +R they buffed it to also have throw invul).  So, in the neutral game, you can use it as a poke to beat low/throw and get a combo, or if you have the other guy in a blockstring you can use it and spend 50% of your meter to cancel it and get a combo or become safe and reset into another block string.  This leads into the last point I want to make, which is that GG likes to have moves that have specific purpose, so you don't get a lot of moves that are useless like in Street Fighter (SF4 has close and far moves for every button right?).  Some moves very clearly have partial body invulnerability, so if you know the other guy is going to do move X because he always does it, you can beat it clean.  In turn, they usually have a move that will beat that move clean, and so you have a very deep decision making tree.  However, unlike BB which simply assigns a property to every move such that no matter how you approach, a "head" type move can't hit someone using a "head-invul" type move, GG just has different vulnerable parts of hitboxes, so an AA can still fail if the jump-in is spaced perfectly.

 

So not only do you have a lot of freedom in what you're allowed to do, you have a reason to use that freedom (baiting bursts during combos, baiting escape tools during block strings, etc).

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Thanks for replying y'all! The game sounds really interesting and I think I might pre-order Xrd. One more question: Is Xrd so radically different from +R that people will still play +R, I guess because I don't want to pay ~15$ on a soon to be dead game (⊙﹏⊙✿)

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Thanks for replying y'all! The game sounds really interesting and I think I might pre-order Xrd. One more question: Is Xrd so radically different from +R that people will still play +R, I guess because I don't want to pay ~15$ on a soon to be dead game (⊙﹏⊙✿)

Xrd is quite different from +R (half the +R cast isn't in Xrd!), but whether people will play remains to be seen. If you're going to meetup offline with people though in the coming 4 months, they're gonna be playing +R though, so that's where you'll find competition.

On a side note I wanted to make a point of, Eventhubs tier lists are trash.

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

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Thanks for replying y'all! The game sounds really interesting and I think I might pre-order Xrd. One more question: Is Xrd so radically different from +R that people will still play +R, I guess because I don't want to pay ~15$ on a soon to be dead game (⊙﹏⊙✿)

 

Mikado which is one of the biggest GG arcades in Japan just had their final +r tournament week ago. Now its pure XRD there. Most likely older GG games wont be played that much anymore in Japan and that usually goes for elsewhere too.

You are fine with XRD :)

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

 

Yup. Didn't touch SF and BB (this also has to do with CP being bad) after GG+R came out for consoles. Although recently I finaly got to try KOF XIII after it was on Humble Bundle and I think it's a decent game.

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Tier Placement:  Guilty Gear AC and +R are pretty balanced.  There are some rough matchups in there like I-No vs May in AC (better in +R) or ABA vs Justice in +R, which are around the 7-3 mark (which is still really good compared to matchups like Roy vs Ganondorf in Melee).  Overall, a character like Bridget who's considered near the bottom is perfectly playable at high level and can win tournaments against the top characters.   Hell, Bridget has unblockable setups, a cancelable multi-hit DP, mobility, and range.  Sounds like he should be super good right?  Potemkin being low tier though... he looks weak in Xrd, but I thought his nerfs were somewhat elegant going from AC to +R.  He still gets to combo off of Slidehead, but it costs him meter.  He doesn't get 36% meter for the knockdown off of Heat Knuckle anymore which is probably cool since he doesn't build 50% meter off of a BnB that does 35% damage while giving good oki.  6H into Slidehead isn't as tight anymore so it's not as much of a braindead trap that screws you up for mistiming your IB > backdash by 1-2 frames.  He still hits like a damn truck with APB loop, still has his strong mixup options, can faint Judge Gauntlet I think?  Also, more health because that was universally buffed, which helps him out as he has high defense.  I barely get to play the game, but I have no idea why someone would say he's bottom in +R when he's still really strong.  He just has to work a little harder.

 

And now that Arc Revo has come and gone, we saw 0 Zato players (top tier) and 2 Potemkins (bottom tier), one of which took a spot in Top 8. GG's tiers are far more forgiving at highest level play. They'll probably annoy you at lower level play, though.

 

Of course, we saw a bunch of Fausts, so it's not like tiers don't matter. It's not just as bad if you want to be a low tier hero.

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

 

 

You either don't go back, or you go back in small doses with friends.  I used to be pretty invested in Smash, but that died when I got into GG.  Now I play it when friends want to play, and most of them would rather play GG so that's not often.

 

P4A is kind of odd because it's simple enough that you could keep playing it without much time investment to be good at it, but it has some silly mechanics that can turn you off.  It's another game that I only play once in a while if a friend wants to play.

 

 

Because GG is complex, you generally have to invest a bit more to keep up with it, so that's a factor for some people.  I barely have time to play games anymore, so I'd rather put in the effort to be good enough at GG to really enjoy it, rather than play 2-3 games at a shitty level and never go anywhere.

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

Guilty Gear X was my first fighting game that I really got into in a big way. I've been playing GG ever since, and nothing has been able to draw my attention away from it. I just recently started playing a bit of P4A and UNIEL so I could get more involved in my local scene, but I doubt they'll ever replace GG for me in the long run.

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

 

Ha, I got into GG when I rented GGX from a blockbuster a loooong time ago, and since then I can't seem get into any other fighters as much as I did with GG. I don't think it was just the gameplay that hooked me, since I'm not too knowledgeable with all the fighter stuff, what got me was the atmosphere, characters, and soundtrack, which are all wonderful, the series just has something special about it all around.

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Here's a question, how do people go back to other fighters after playing GG?

I was liking Persona a decent amount, but after getting heavily into GG I now have zero urge to ever touch it again. Is this normal?

 

Pretty much everybody has already said the same thing, but I feel like throwing in a local analogy.

 

Guilty Gear is the hot older sister of fighting games. Others come in and try to muscle into your heart by trying too hard, and sometimes succeed in grabbing your attention for maybe a week. You've got the idiot little sister (BB), the one with nothing of value to say (P4), and the creepy spaz who you stay the hell away from (Mahvel).

 

Meanwhile, GG sits back, sips some wine, and says, "You'll be back".

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All other 2D fighters are merely gateway drugs into GG.  It's the high you really want, but you have to work your way up to it or else you wind up like Uma Thurman in Pulp Fiction.

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Cool, just wanted to confirm my experience was typical.

I've kept my interest in Melee. That's it though; Melee and GG are the only two games I want to continue playing. And Melee I only play when a local fest is happening. Melee is so drastically different an experience from everything else (and has more tech to it than my hands can handle) that GG didn't manage to completely override it like it did to all the other 2D fighters I was dabbling in before.

If Xrd's online is solid (can't even imagine how hype I would be if the online ends up being great), GG will probably not only override the other fighters I've played, but all other video games altogether.

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